No babies? Italy blames its 'mamma's boys'

NBC News ^ | Nov. 14, 2005 | Stephen Weeke

[Campion]

Birth control allows women to decide whether or not they want to have children, how many they want, if they want to go to work; no birth control makes the choices for them.

Flatly refuted by my and my wife's personal experiences.

It's funny how the pro-contraceptive folks just insist a happy life is impossible without sterilizing pills and devices. How would you know? Have you ever tried it? How many non-contraceptive, NFP-using marriages have you been in? Any?

[Accygirl]

The Pill is almost 100% effective; the only time it doesn't work is if the woman doesn't use it. That strikes me as being much more effective than trying to keep a calendar, especially since most women's cycles are a bit irregular.

[Accygirl]

That's lovely that your wife is still working; however, I don't see how a woman with more than four kids could continue to work, especially in an office environment. The maternity leave time alone would kill any promotion hopes.

As for your assertion about NFP, correlation doesn't always equal causation. I think that most people that practice this form of birth control are very conservative Catholics, who probably wouldn't divorce even if their marriage was an unhappy one.

[Accygirl]

- Pope JP II made it clear that sex between two married people itself is a good thing, not an evil sin that is only tolerated because of children and that humans should spend their whole lives feeling guilty about (ala Augustine). For instance, if a couple, for whatever reason, cannot have children, then their union is no less sacred than one who has ten.

- There was spousal abuse, sexual harrassment, and men not respecting women in the 1950s just like there is today. However, today there's shelters and women know self-defense, have mace and aren't willing to put up with it anymore. Furthermore, that insinuation strikes me as a bit of ... of course "bad girls" are going to get exactly what they deserve. And the victim should never be blamed in these situations.

- It wasn't about the pope himself; it was about the flawed logic of how all American women must have ten plus kids in order for us to defeat the Islamofacists. That's probably the same thing that the Islamofacists are using to subjugate Muslim women. In my mind, the best way to stop Islamic radicals is to spread democracy and women's rights to the Muslim world. If women were viewed as more than "baby-making machines" and could get a job outside the home, then the birth rate in the Arab world would decrease and there be less unemployed young men for the UBL's of the world to target.

[Accygirl]

- I'm not Catholic because of issues that I've had with the Catholic Church when I was growing up. In my mind, Protestants are less judgmental, and joining a Evangelical Church has allowed me to foster a personal relationship with God.

- How about men treating women with respect all the time? I demand that from every man that I date, and if he doesn't give me that, I'm out the door in a split second. Furthermore, I don't think that sex between two people in a committed relationship is "prostitution," and I definitely don't consider myself a sleazy whore just because I'm not married at twenty-three and popping out my third child.

[Windsong]

Furthermore, the highest birth rates in the world are in Muslim countries.

In which such rates are drastically lowered on account of parents sending their kids out as suicide bombers..

[Dan Evans]

if a person has trouble attracting a good mate, they should look at themsleves and evaluate what changes they should make to themselves.

Hmmm. Whatever happened to "just be yourself"? No wonder there's so many phonies in the world.

[napscoordinator]

I am stationed in Italy. They live with their family due to economic problems not because they are gay. In fact, there is no gay culture in Italy that is "out". Not like U.S. where it everywhere.

[Antoninus]

- Pope JP II made it clear that sex between two married people itself is a good thing, not an evil sin that is only tolerated because of children and that humans should spend their whole lives feeling guilty about (ala Augustine).

Augustine was a man who, in his youth, had an opinion of sexual relations much like yours. After his spiritual awakening, he took a much more strident position than most of us would--most likely as a direct result of his earlier delinquency. He knew first hand the destruction that such a view causes.

- There was spousal abuse, sexual harrassment, and men not respecting women in the 1950s just like there is today.

The Catholic Church has never taught that any of these things were good and no practicing Catholic who understands the Faith would ever perpetrate them. And these things are epidemic today among those who have rejected objective truth and Christianity.

However, today there's shelters and women know self-defense, have mace and aren't willing to put up with it anymore.

I challenge you to show me statistics that show that rates of domestic violence, sexual harassment, rape, etc. are down today as compared with the 1950s. Most of the stats I've seen show that those who fool around, shack-up, etc. are much more likely to be victims of domestic violence, date rape, sexual assault, etc.

Furthermore, that insinuation strikes me as a bit of ... of course "bad girls" are going to get exactly what they deserve. And the victim should never be blamed in these situations.

Blame the victim. Another leftist catch phrase. It's common sense that if you act like a whore, you're going to get treated like one. "Bad girls" tend to attract "bad boys" and then, not surprisingly, bad things happen. Why is this so hard to understand?

- It wasn't about the pope himself; it was about the flawed logic of how all American women must have ten plus kids in order for us to defeat the Islamofacists.

Where did anyone say that? A more accurate portrayal of the position would be, "if young American men and women don't start taking marriage and family more seriously, we will eventually be defeated and overwhelmed by those who do."

That's probably the same thing that the Islamofacists are using to subjugate Muslim women.

No. Threats of violence, indigence, and social ostracism are used to subjugate Muslim women. Please demonstrate for me where Catholic teaching advocates any of the above.

In my mind, the best way to stop Islamic radicals is to spread democracy and women's rights to the Muslim world. If women were viewed as more than "baby-making machines" and could get a job outside the home, then the birth rate in the Arab world would decrease.

So you are worried about the muslim birthrate after all. Guess what? They already know that we are committing cultural suicide and that time is on their side. They know they will eventually win as long as we don't change anything. You've really bought the population control propaganda hook-line-and-sinker. And I've got more bad news: spreading evils like artificial contraception and abortion to the Muslim world is no remedy for the evil that already exists there.

My wife would take extreme exception to your characterization of mothers as "baby-making-machines" who would be happier by becoming a slave to the corporate world than having children. I guarantee you--women who have many children have a MUCH greater impact on society than a dozen regional sales managers who are married to their jobs.

[Dan Evans]

I don't know many women who would want to have eleven kids.

It isn't likely that you would know a women who wants a big family. The fundamentalist Christians, Amish, Quakers, Hutterites and Mormons probably don't hang out in the same dance clubs that you do. And don't imagine that they are being forced into it. Just like Catholics, they always have the option of leaving the church.

But they are out there. It is always a mistake to believe that every one else thinks just like you. America is a very diverse country.

The argument that American women should be at home popping out children by the tens is the same one that the Islamofacists are making right now about the already oppressed women in their own countries.

Yes, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims do have that trait in common. But that doesn't mean the Christians are as vicious to women as Islam. Christians don't beat women or stone them to death for violating doctrine.

If you don't want to have kids, don't have kids. I guarantee you there are just as many men who don't want kids as there are who do.

Some people are just too pushy. They think there is only one proper lifestyle and they can't fathom that others would want to do something that they don't. Don't take it as a threat to your lifestyle just because the pope praised a women for having a lot of children.

The Amish have a saying when asked about why they don't do certain things. They say, "It isn't our way". That is different than saying, "It's wrong", or "It's evil". They just say they don't do that. But we need people who do different things. Like I said before, it might be better if we had groups of people who have big families (as long as they raise good kids) and others who have few or none.

Liberals talk about "diversity" but they have a peculiar idea about what it should be. They want to embrace any lifestyle whatsoever no matter how toxic to society. I say the proper form of diversity is having different cultures and lifestyles who all contribute good things.

[Antoninus]

- I'm not Catholic because of issues that I've had with the Catholic Church when I was growing up. In my mind, Protestants are less judgmental, and joining a Evangelical Church has allowed me to foster a personal relationship with God.

I can certainly see that. Catholicism is too hard for a lot of people, so they look for the "lite" version. Christ himself said that his teachings would be to hard for some to accept, so your position is not surprising.

- How about men treating women with respect all the time? I demand that from every man that I date, and if he doesn't give me that, I'm out the door in a split second.

If you knew some devout Catholic men, you'd know that's never an issue. It only becomes an issue with those who put their own gratification above all else.

Furthermore, I don't think that sex between two people in a committed relationship is "prostitution," and I definitely don't consider myself a sleazy whore just because I'm not married at twenty-three and popping out my third child.

You're channeling Planned Parenthood again. If you're having intercourse outside of the marriage relationship, you are giving a man not your husband access to the most intimate relationship two people can have. If you don't think this will have repercussions on your later life with the man who you end up marrying, you're crazy.

No one said that you should be "popping out babies" (I just love the continuously dismissive portrayals of the greatest of human miracles, btw) as an unmarried 23-year-old. Indeed, given your arguments here, it's clear that you're nowhere near ready for motherhood yet. When you understand that both marriage, and motherhood/fatherhood involves total self-sacrifice, then you'll be ready, regardless of your age, social status, or income level.

[Antoninus]

As for your assertion about NFP, correlation doesn't always equal causation. I think that most people that practice this form of birth control are very conservative Catholics, who probably wouldn't divorce even if their marriage was an unhappy one.

Of course, one should not have to suffer through an unhappy marriage. It's much better for all parties concerned to just get a divorce the second any unhappiness rears its ugly head. All the divorced people I know are perfectly well adjusted, don't go to therapy, have normal kids, and are generally optimistic about life. /extreme sarcasm

Do me a favor. Think about your statement above--because you may be starting to get it and not even realize it.

[willyboyishere]

Hey, I noticed this trend in my 80% Italian hometown, 28 miles north of Chicago, working-class, full of Italian restaurants and, being surrounded by dry towns with majority uppermiddle class populations, also full of taverns. And that trend goes back to the sixties, at least.
It has as much to do with the nature of the Italian mother as anything else. But I can think of many guys I grew up with who apparently couldn't bear to leave the area, and some even stayed in or around the house until, yes, they were 30 or older.

[gathersnomoss]

I stand corrected sir.