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Pa. Teen Remains in Care of Relatives
AP via TBO ^ | November 20, 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 11/20/2005 8:30:31 AM PST by ncountylee

LITITZ, Pa. (AP) -- Kara Borden sat with her four siblings in the chapel of Lancaster Bible College for her parents' funeral on Saturday. On the Bordens' street, white ribbons were affixed to mailboxes to honor their memory.

The relationship between 18-year-old David Ludwig and 14-year-old Borden was a closely guarded secret. There was good reason to keep things quiet: Their four-year age difference displeased their parents.

The tensions in the Borden house apparently spilled over last Sunday, when police say Ludwig fatally shot Kara's parents, Michael and Cathryn Borden, after an argument about their relationship, then fled with the girl. The two were found the following day after a chase and crash in Indiana. Ludwig is being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges; Kara in the care of relatives and church members.

"They weren't officially boyfriend and girlfriend because their parents didn't approve of them being together," said 16-year-old Stephanie Mannon, one of Kara's neighbors. "Sometimes they would secretly get together."

Neighbors say the two teens met at a support group for home-schooled students. Kara's sister, Katelyn, told police she met Ludwig in May and saw him regularly at the group.

(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: davidludwig; karabethborden; ludwig

1 posted on 11/20/2005 8:30:31 AM PST by ncountylee
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To: ncountylee
"They were good kids and they were brought up very well. What I see is, they just made some bad choices," said Vera Zimmerman, 50 ...

Sheesh, Vera. If someone had murdered you, would you still be saying, "... some bad choices."?

2 posted on 11/20/2005 8:36:46 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Tax-chick

Since Vera knew the parents I would have to conclude that she is in some sort of shell shock and denial at this point.


3 posted on 11/20/2005 8:42:52 AM PST by alisasny
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To: alisasny
Could be. I'm just surprised that, given this particularly clear example of evil acts, the first instinct would be nonjudgmental mumbling about "choices."
4 posted on 11/20/2005 8:45:42 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: alisasny

Yeah. What can she say.


5 posted on 11/20/2005 8:47:00 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: Tax-chick

I feel bad for the relatives that are taking care of Kara. They're in denial that she's a tramp and quite possibly helped murder her parents.


6 posted on 11/20/2005 8:54:59 AM PST by Redgirl (I don't do hyphens.)
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To: ncountylee

I wouldn't want this kid in my house. This whole thing sounds like Charlie Starkweather and Caril Ann all over again.


7 posted on 11/20/2005 8:58:53 AM PST by thathamiltonwoman
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To: Redgirl
I really hope not. I know this is a kid that was thinking like a kid but how could she willingly leave with someone that just murdered her parents. We know she didn't participate because her sister said the boyfriend went looking for her but still...
8 posted on 11/20/2005 9:01:04 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: thathamiltonwoman
When we thought the girl had been kidnapped and I first saw her picture, my first thought was she looked a little defiant but some people just have that kind of face. I was just looking at the two girls. I assume the other is her sister. They look a lot alike but the expressions are completely different. I hope they watch Juliet really close.
9 posted on 11/20/2005 9:05:49 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg

I don't think we really know anything at this point except for the fact that the parents are quite dead.


10 posted on 11/20/2005 9:05:55 AM PST by Emmett McCarthy
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To: Tax-chick
I'm just surprised that, given this particularly clear example of evil acts, the first instinct would be nonjudgmental mumbling about "choices."

I think it's a good example of how deeply instilled PC "tolerance" has become. Even cold-blooded murder is now something to be psychologized away.

11 posted on 11/20/2005 9:06:53 AM PST by madprof98
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To: Emmett McCarthy

Quite.


12 posted on 11/20/2005 9:07:01 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: madprof98

This was a friend and church person speaking. I wouldn't have expected anything different. It's not PC . What more can you say publicly about 2 people you thought you knew so well?


13 posted on 11/20/2005 9:11:09 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: madprof98

I agree. Whatever she might be thinking, she said what she knew she was "expected" to say.


14 posted on 11/20/2005 9:30:44 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Redgirl

A very difficult situation, definitely.


15 posted on 11/20/2005 9:34:57 AM PST by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: CindyDawg
but how could she willingly leave with someone that just murdered her parents.....I would guess she feared for her own life at that point!
16 posted on 11/20/2005 9:35:40 AM PST by SweetCaroline (PARENTS & GRANDPARENTS IN CA JUST ABORTED THEIR FAMILY!!!)
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To: SweetCaroline

Maybe or shock. Who knows?


17 posted on 11/20/2005 9:36:39 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg

....most girls are very confused at that age!


18 posted on 11/20/2005 9:38:48 AM PST by SweetCaroline (PARENTS & GRANDPARENTS IN CA JUST ABORTED THEIR FAMILY!!!)
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To: SweetCaroline

"....most girls are very confused at that age!"

True, and they have a romanticized idea of "love". Ludwig may have been a controller or they may have just been evil. Rebellion must certainly have been a factor. I wonder how long and why they home schooled.


19 posted on 11/20/2005 9:44:24 AM PST by outinyellowdogcountry
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To: SweetCaroline

Yeah. What do you do with them? Thankfully most don't end in murder but a lot of young girls today seem confused. I guess I was probably confused myself at 14. Do you ban dating until 16 and risk they will do it behind your back or do you allow supervised dating at 14? Age limits on the guys? I only had boys and they weren't allowed on unsupervised dates until they were 16. They seemed ok with this but the girl friends would complain to me and call us old fashioned and unfair :')


20 posted on 11/20/2005 9:46:06 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: Redgirl

Exactly, the kid should be in jail.


21 posted on 11/20/2005 9:52:39 AM PST by doodad
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To: Redgirl
It's going to be really interesting to see what happens when Kara's parents' estate is settled. Her innocent brother and sister are going to be looking at this individual who well could have been complicit in the murder of their parents. If the brother and sister are smart, or have good legal advice, they'll try to get Kara cut out of the estate, alleging she was complicit in her parents' murder. Ludwig will give them at least some help, since he's denying that he kidnapped Kara and that she voluntarily accompanied him. According to Fox News last night the authorities also found nude pictures of Kara on Ludwig's computer. All of the foregoing suggests to me that this was a Starkweather/Fugate mass murdering spree that got nipped in the bud.
22 posted on 11/20/2005 10:13:10 AM PST by libstripper
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To: ncountylee

Reminds me of Lizzie Borden.

Two dead parents.
Daughter involved.


23 posted on 11/20/2005 10:20:13 AM PST by JRochelle (Brit to Juan, "Somebody needs to hose you down!")
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To: libstripper

They will probably take care of her. I'm glad she's under age though so she can't even think about "helping" the boyfriend.


24 posted on 11/20/2005 10:23:28 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg
I think back when my children were in there teens and know that I had more control of my children then parents do now and of course they had the morale teaching of the church we attend since they were very young.

I was a stay at home mom and knew where they were most of the time. I say most of the time because I have heard, since they have become adults, a few events that happened that I knew nothing about.

Now the government ties their hands as far a discipline goes and neither parent is around after school to monitor their actions. Many are left unsupervised to the likes of MTV programs that push an anything goes type of attitude.

I truly pity parents today and Thank God my children are grown up.

25 posted on 11/20/2005 10:27:08 AM PST by SweetCaroline (PARENTS & GRANDPARENTS IN CA JUST ABORTED THEIR FAMILY!!!)
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To: outinyellowdogcountry
True, and they have a romanticized idea of "love". ....and confuse sex for LOVE.
26 posted on 11/20/2005 10:35:58 AM PST by SweetCaroline (PARENTS & GRANDPARENTS IN CA JUST ABORTED THEIR FAMILY!!!)
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To: JRochelle
Reminds me of Lizzie Borden.

And same surname.

27 posted on 11/20/2005 10:46:48 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: SweetCaroline
Heck. My mom seldom knew where I was and would have freaked if she ever found out, some of the places I went to. Knowing kids, I thought I watched mine like a hawk. I find out now that the "lil darlins" still roamed. Pay backs coming though. These precious little grandchildren are putting their mommas and daddies thru their paces:')No matter how good a parent you are kids can still get into trouble.
28 posted on 11/20/2005 11:07:34 AM PST by CindyDawg
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To: ncountylee
"They were good kids and they were brought up very well. What I see is, they just made some bad choices,"

how ridiculous! our choices and actions are what make us...

29 posted on 11/20/2005 11:33:37 AM PST by latina4dubya
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To: CindyDawg
Pay backs coming though.THAT'S A BIG YEEPERS!(hehe)rejoice
30 posted on 11/20/2005 11:59:28 AM PST by SweetCaroline (Texas Cowboys pain is gone and he is with Our Lord whom he Loved so much! Rejoice!)
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To: ncountylee

What I see is, they just made some bad choices," said Vera Zimmerman,


----What I see Vera Zimmerman, is that you are a complete idiot and if it had been your family killed, would you say the same stupid things you are now? Bad choices? We calll it "murder" where I live. A bad choice is smoking a cigarette behing mom and dads back.Jesus, Lord, where do they find these people to interview?


31 posted on 11/20/2005 1:21:26 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.)
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To: WasDougsLamb
where do they find these people to interview?

Reporters probably interviewed a few other people, and they thought their answers were too boring.

32 posted on 11/20/2005 1:37:56 PM PST by Dr. Scarpetta
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To: WasDougsLamb

She's probably still trying to figure this out too. She loved them. A lot of people hurting here


33 posted on 11/20/2005 1:40:59 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: thathamiltonwoman

I doubt if she's dangerous to anyone else but I hope they have her on 24 hour watch, so she doesn't try to kill herself.


34 posted on 11/20/2005 1:43:08 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg

She's probably still trying to figure this out too. She loved them. A lot of people hurting here


---She is still an idiot. Murdering people is more than just a bad choice. That was my point.


35 posted on 11/20/2005 1:54:49 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.)
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To: WasDougsLamb

My first impression of her comments was that she was not referring to the murders... but the choices they made before the murders. The sneaking around, rebellion, etc. It was those bad choices that led up to the senseless and evil act of murder.


36 posted on 11/20/2005 2:55:52 PM PST by Proud 2BeTexan
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To: Proud 2BeTexan

I see where you get that impression. I reread it again.I was just posting to my first impression and I think she is an idiot for calling the murder of two innocent people bad choices sheer ignorance. Have a nice day.


37 posted on 11/20/2005 4:56:14 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.)
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To: WasDougsLamb

Yeah, I'd say anything that can result in the death penalty or life in prison isn't simply a bad choice!


38 posted on 11/21/2005 10:57:39 AM PST by cookiedough
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To: Tax-chick; madprof98; CindyDawg
Sheesh, Vera.

Did you see the interview (it was televised), or are you just going by this one quote?

If someone had murdered you, would you still be saying, "... some bad choices."?

I don't believe she was talking about the murdering. I think the reference there was to the relationship they had and kept secret. I didn't get the impression she was saying what she thought was expected, but was pretty forthright about the problems Kara was causing her mother. But that was just my impression, and I wasn't able to give the interview my full attention.

39 posted on 11/21/2005 3:58:20 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gondring

Just going from what was in the article. We don't have TV.


40 posted on 11/21/2005 5:01:14 PM PST by Tax-chick ("Everything is either willed or permitted by God, and nothing can hurt me." Bl. Charles de Foucauld)
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To: Gondring

---We all got different impressions of what she meant. Thanks for sharing yours.


41 posted on 11/21/2005 5:39:59 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.)
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To: WasDougsLamb
---We all got different impressions of what she meant. Thanks for sharing yours.

You're welcome. :-)

42 posted on 11/21/2005 9:51:27 PM PST by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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