Skip to comments.US in move that may bar foreign researchers
Posted on 11/24/2005 6:46:57 PM PST by Mark Felton
The US government is poised to propose rules that could restrict the ability of Chinese and other foreign nationals to engage in high-level research in the country, a plan that is generating fierce opposition from companies and universities.
The move comes amid growing fears in the US that its relatively open rules allowing foreign nationals to work with sensitive technologies leave the country open to espionage.
Our space industry was founded by former scientists of the NAZI regime, like Werner von Braun.
Today we encourage illegal invasion by the most uneducated peoples of the world and now discourage the best and brightest?
A short-sighted self-destructive policy that will ease us into mediocrity and a less robust military position.
We have far too many security violations all over the places.
One is talking about people whose loyalties are more questionable than were the loyalties of von Braun at the time. [And von Braun was under much tighter control, too]. Von Braun's Germany was occupied, and then became a strong ally. The debacle with Wen Ho Lee should have been more than sufficient warning.
"Our space industry was founded by former scientists of the NAZI regime, like Werner von Braun."
The Nazis had been defeated. The Chinese are not.
I'm not so sure this is a bad idea during war time, in a protracted conflict, especially with the Red Chinese, who are not our friends, now or historically, nor into the future. How much highly sensitive information has been transferred to their homelands, or our enemies or both? The U.S. needs to revisit all it's programs and immigration programs, top to bottom, but while it's figuring it out, it needs to freeze the current programs, kick out those who aren't in compliance and seal the borders, once and for all. This should've been resolved ten plus years ago..oh, I forgot, Boy Clinton was selling our secrets to the Chinese for campaign contributions. Never mind.
Very true. I think it was key they mentioned "China" in particular.
We certainly shouldn't be letting a bunch of damn communists do ANYTHING in our country. Letting them perform high level research is stupid. Granting them easy access to our technology is stupid. Leaving our borders wide open is stupid. Our enemy's aren't this stupid.
This is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard of. Governments intentions will produce the opposite of it's results. We'll be sending the best and brightest right back to the Chinese military. Let's keep the brain drain coming to the United States! (as it's always been)
Oh real timely. Only a couple decades late. A few years ago right here in hay country a couple "chinese students" (uh huh) were busted by the Feds for transfer of hi tech info. I think they fled.
The Nazis had been defeated. The Chinese are not.
The major differance is the nazi scientist came and brought space technology with them. The chinese bring nothing with them. They are here for one purpose only: to steal technology. The only thing they bring to the table is ping pong. For the past 30-35 years, thanks to Nixon/Kissinger ping pong diplomacy, they have been welcomed into our research labs by "airhead" lab administrators and scientists in exchange for flattery and boondoggle exchange visits to china. It's not a question of the "best and brightest". They are given slots or billets that should be reserved for young american scientists and they abuse that privilege by collecting and passing sensitive technical data back to china right under the noses of lab security and administration. The recent Los Alamos (Wen HO???)scandle is only the tip of the iceberg. These people are planted throughout our aerospace defense industry.
Defense related research should be conducted by native born Americans. What's the problem with that?
Otherwise we should be buying or reverse-engineering any superior designs from overseas products, and then improving on them ourselves.
Why let non-native US residents or even naturalized US citizens be enticed away by their home country's defense establishment?
We don't gain the work of that one smart guru. Instead, we lose the work of 100s of US researchers when or if they pass our secrets to their home country.
China ready to use N-weapons against US
Chinese Spy Ring Busted
China's Stealth War on the U.S.
Iraq's arms ["The big three arms suppliers were Russia (and the Soviet Union), China and France"]
Russia, N.Korea, China give Iran missile aid -CIA
Russia says new Topol RS-12 mobile ICBM can evade U.S. missile defense
NAVAL WAR COLLEGE NEWPORT PAPERS
China's Nuclear Force Modernization (PDF)
Lyle J. Goldstein, Editor, with Andrew S. Erickson
"According to the 20032004 issue of the IISS Military Balance, one brigade (eight missiles) of the long-anticipated DF-31 inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) is now deployed, with more presumably to follow in relatively short order . . . While this is not the first road-mobile, solid-fuel missile deployed by China, it is the first one capable of striking the continental United States."
The range of the DF-31 is 8,000 kilometers, which is close to 5,000 miles. Our west coast and several northern states in the Rockies are within its range. The DF-31 has a CEP of only 300-500 meters if not closer than that by now. China has already built its own GPS with plans for worldwide coverage soon, and it is accurate to within 12 meters. The Chinese DF-41 and other systems are under development. Some of those systems will reach any part of the United States, and our Defense does not know as to whether they've been deployed, yet.
...from an old post of mine. China has come far in developing her new Navy since then. And from a couple of quick searches just now:
The Russia-China Friendship and Cooperation Treaty: A Strategic Shift in Eurasia?
[Disclaimer: I don't know anything about the rest of the site behind the last link there, yet.]
Lets be honest about the big picture. There are probably over 100,000 Chinese college students in the US today. Of this group...at least 50 percent are probably part of some technology collection agency which gets both the education and the stolen technology at the same time.
Simple scenario. Hu is at University of Florida and knows a couple of guys who are in a special project to develop internet use via electrical lines (110-voltage for those folks from Ripley). They are approaching a point where they can pass packets via a regular house electrical circuit. Hu goes in one night and downloads their 50,000 pages of tech documents. He sends it to China. Within four months, a technology group in China has the same project on their back-burner and can devote vast resources on it to finish ahead of the college kids in Florida. Hu gets a little medal and a promise of his own lab upon return. This goes on all the time.
Second scenario. Su Wong is a good looking female Chinese math student in UCLA. She gets in good with the various professors and starts collecting private data on them (their various secret affairs and such). Four years later, a little Chinese office opens near UCLA and arranges for a blonde escort type to meet the professor who now has meetings with US nuclear scientists, and a blackmail scheme starts up.
For the US to even start getting control of the situation...we'd need at least another 100k intelligence or FBI personnel and we'd have to start limiting foreign student status into the US...which the universities really don't want to do.
This is not true. Sure, he was one of a few and I say few that helped speed along the space industry but they were by no means the founders of the space industry.
Just so as you know he wasn't even the inventor of the jet rocket.
Goddard, Robert Hutchings, 1882-1945, American physicist and rocket expert, b. Worcester, Mass., grad. Worcester Polytechnic Institute (B.S., 1908), Ph.D. Clark Univ., 1911. From 1914 he was associated with Clark Univ., becoming a professor of physics in 1919. Goddard designed and built early high altitude rockets. In 1926 he completed and successfully fired the world's first liquid fuel rocket. He developed the first smokeless powder rocket, the first practical automatic steering device for rockets, and innumerable other rocket devices. He was one of the first to develop a general theory of rocket action and to prove experimentally the efficiency of rocket propulsion in a vacuum.
Von Braun was not alone. He was A founder and only one of many German scientists who came to the US for their work in rocketry and missiles. Huntsville Alabama, home of Redstone Arsenal, Missile Command (exact name?) has a relatively large German population now because of them.
We also had German nuclear scientists and many other types of physicists, ngineers and mathematicians come to the US.
The other half of the German scientific community went to the USSR.
Good post pepsi.
This shows a dated understanding of what is currently going on. I, for one, am pleased to see that Congress is finally waking up to the invasion and the destruction of a loyal technology personnel base...and the need to stem it. The Chinese influx comes not just straight from the Mainland, but often a number of intermediary stops along the way. Whereever these Chinese agents are coming from, they need to be shut down. The policies of blindered, incompetent, globalism are finally being replaced by enlightened national security interest. You appear devoid of national security understanding. Your unwarranted love of expediency shows a profound short-sightedness.
We'll be sending the best and brightest right back to the Chinese military.
This is where they go RIGHT NOW, but AFTER we have fully trained them and funded them in the state-of-the-art in the United States...leaving our technology advantage at zero. In fact worse than zero...because you don't recognize that when they DO go back to China as they are...they leave gaping holes in the U.S. technology infrastructure that could and should have been filled by U.S. citizens...but were foregone for ephemeral pay savings by short-sighted and unpatriotic imbeciles running the corporate megaliths. It also ignores the hazard of those who remain being a continuous conduit of intell for the enemy, plus, potentially active saboteurs whose affirmative sabotage of engineering could be devastating. Depending on Fifth Columnists at the engineering level is truly a dangerous development.
Take a look at this recent report, which comes at the issue from a slightly different perspective, sympathetic to supposed innocents in this pending correction:
GCG Worldwide, an internationally known Consulting group, shares insight in a recent White Paper about the road frequently traveled by H1B Visa Holders, who come to the USA at the request and support of an employer, but find the road is not paved with gold…or even paved, in some cases.
Bristol, TN (PRWEB) November 25, 2005 -- Recent surveys and anecdotal stories shared by clients paint a somber story; H1B Visa Holders, brought to the USA and promised both equal treatment and equal opportunity are finding it more and more difficult to live happily in a land where, quite honestly, the natives are getting more and more restless. With recent major announcements of major corporate layoffs in the thousands and another round of downsizings appearing just around the corner, the proverbial “Give me your tired huddled masses” may seem to be ‘pie in the sky’ for H1B Visa Immigrants here in the USA.
"With the world heading more and more toward "one world" development, production and consumption, it's not surprising that some group will find itself left out in the cold," says Alan Guinn, Managing Director and CEO of GCG. "What we're finding so surprising is the fact that this is not happening just in one area, or in one industry, but is happening in so many different areas and industries."
Historically, H1B Visa workers have been focused in the IT industries and post-Internet and .com meltdown, it’s been more and more difficult for them to keep a job from one year to the next. "First found, first hired, first fired," says Guinn. "The difference is that if they don’t have a job, they may or may not find something else. They generally go back home."
New approaches to dealing with salaries, guarantees and work product of H1B Visa workers are growing to address their needs. Saga Consulting Services, of Pittsburgh and Houston, has developed a marketing program specifically to address the issue. "As a part of our 'Saga Economy' approach, we strive to surface issues that are evident, and resolve challenges before they become challenges. Cognizance is our byword," says Kashif Aftab, VP of Saga. "We help the stakeholder make modifications to his or her expectations."
Employers have found that when you can hire a foreign worker just by sponsoring a work visa and then pay them at 50% or less of the generally acceptable wage rate, significantly expansion of corporate profits can occur. Generally speaking, they would not consider hiring an American worker to whom they would have to pay much higher wages with additional, added benefits. Hence, the employer thus takes advantage of the situation and the H1B Visa holder keeps his silence since he either does not know any better or he must worry about his work Visa sponsorship.
Action pending in Congress may address inequities, but for some H1B Visa holders, it may be too little, too late. "We brought them here on a promise and a prayer" says Guinn, "but we may send them back with dashed dreams and broken spirits."
COMMENT: Aw, gee, the poor Chi-Comm spies have to leave without any further progress on stealing us blind....
And How many times have we heard the free traitors here at Free Republic supporting the NEED for H-1B's in the U.S. defend that the hirings were at the prevailing wages. Now, even the BODY shops and Consulting services are confessing the actual situation, that major deception is being practiced. That labor arbitrage is in full hurricane mode. And that the pay is often at only 50% of the U.S. labor...which is even worse than generally reported .
The scope of the Chinese espionage/sabotage threat is so vast, that the only really effective approach is outright expulsion, with the only exception being those who defect for fear of political persecution, and those need be handled on a case-by-case basis...and even then for safety, they should be then guided into technology areas where they cannot compromise U.S. security.
Absolutely wrong. We have the talent. Even now, most of the technology which dominates our society was developed without the aid of Chinese scientists.
I believe judeo-christian science will remain pre-eminent no matter how many multiples of non-judeo-christian scientists there may be. (yes, religion and culture is very definitely a factor in science.)
"The recent Los Alamos (Wen HO???)scandle is only the tip of the iceberg. These people are planted throughout our aerospace defense industry."
Agreed. This is part of the large cup of coffee conservative Republicans need to wake up and smell. The Chinese are performing a pantomime of an open, free trade society to pursue ruthless purposes.
I don't advocate secession of trade with them, but I do think that, in addition to the tightening of security that you mention, we should put heavy trade sanctions in place until Chinese law and practice in regards to intellectual property rights fully match current international standards.
"Yes, until they stop sending so many of their "best and brightest" spies to get the most dangerous information (physics, math, computer science, patterns for development,...). I had a Chinese instructor at one of our universities during the '80s. She told us students that she was a PLA Captain, and she was quite radically nationalist."
Quite fascinating. Of course, by now they have instructed PLA captains to stop identifying themselves to their American students.
As long as China is ruled by Communists, they will never stop infiltrating us in this matter---that they may spruce up the appearances for us.
"For the US to even start getting control of the situation...we'd need at least another 100k intelligence or FBI personnel and we'd have to start limiting foreign student status into the US...which the universities really don't want to do."
We don't need 100,000 agents. we just need to prohibit communist Chinese nationals from entering scientific or technical graduate schools in the US.
There are thousands of unemployed engineers in the US right now, including folks with PhDs who have been laid off from corporate research labs. There is absolutley no need to import research talent right now.
I doubt hardly any Chinese Immigrants that come here return home. Did you know that the going rate to smuggle a Chinese immigrant here is $60,000 per head? Immigrants come here to work, to add to the national GDP and increase prosperity for all Americans. Why would an engineer go back to China to earn peanuts compared to what they can earn here. It doesn't happen.
This hysteria will hurt our national defense and our economy.
For more info on this see these two comments. Sums up my views on these issues:
Wrong. Explain the Paragon Power case, with the loss of the Aegis and DDX technology. They were going to China. To stay, evidently.
Well, if the best and brightest have anti Western leanings, will spy, and will eventually go home to make nukes to nuke us, YES!
Another thing I argued with a bunch of fools over at a Los Alamos blog about, was that Von Braun (and others in that generation) came here forever, never thinking about going home. They became US Citizens. They were NOT here on visas! Big, big difference.
We should be hunting them down, not sponsoring them.
I think the key term here is IMMIGRATE.
We did (and still should) encourage immigration of the best and brightest. Today, we need to discourage the temporary presence of foreign nationals in our R&D facilities - we didn't allow it then, and we shouldn't now!!
As to the rest - (encourage the illegal invasion) - I sadly agree that that is where we are . . .
As you point out this would be a complete disaster for American universities. Apparently, most of the posters decrying these "foreigners" haven't bothered looking at the names attached to many patents and scientific papers filed by universities over the past two decades. Imagine their shock if they went to some of these schools and found the huge number of Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Korean and even African immigrants actually running entire departmetns or research facilities.
That said the passing of some of these technologies to countries whose interests are adverse (putting it politely) to ours, is sometimes nothing short of treason. We aren't in the Cold War right now, but maybe a few grad students should be reminded of what happened to the Rosenbergs.
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