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Intelligent designís long march to nowhere
Science & Theology News ^ | 05 December 2005 | Karl Giberson

Posted on 12/05/2005 4:06:56 AM PST by PatrickHenry

The leaders of the intelligent design movement are once again holding court in America, defending themselves against charges that ID is not science. One of the expert witnesses is Michael Behe, author of the ID movement’s seminal volume Darwin’s Black Box. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University, testified about the scientific character of ID in Kitzmiller v. Dover School District, the court case of eight families suing the school district and the school board in Dover, Pa., for mandating the teaching of intelligent design.

Under cross-examination, Behe made many interesting comparisons between ID and the big-bang theory — both concepts carry lots of ideological freight. When the big-bang theory was first proposed in the 1920s, many people made hostile objections to its apparent “supernatural” character. The moment of the big bang looked a lot like the Judeo-Christian creation story, and scientists from Quaker Sir Arthur Eddington to gung-ho atheist Fred Hoyle resisted accepting it.

In his testimony, Behe stated — correctly — that at the current moment, “we have no explanation for the big bang.” And, ultimately it may prove to be “beyond scientific explanation,” he said. The analogy is obvious: “I put intelligent design in the same category,” he argued.

This comparison is quite interesting. Both ID and the big-bang theory point beyond themselves to something that may very well lie outside of the natural sciences, as they are understood today. Certainly nobody has produced a simple model for the big–bang theory that fits comfortably within the natural sciences, and there are reasons to suppose we never will.

In the same way, ID points to something that lies beyond the natural sciences — an intelligent designer capable of orchestrating the appearance of complex structures that cannot have evolved from simpler ones. “Does this claim not resemble those made by the proponents of the big bang?” Behe asked.

However, this analogy breaks down when you look at the historical period between George Lemaitre’s first proposal of the big-bang theory in 1927 and the scientific community’s widespread acceptance of the theory in 1965, when scientists empirically confirmed one of the big bang’s predictions.

If we continue with Behe’s analogy, we might expect that the decades before 1965 would have seen big-bang proponents scolding their critics for ideological blindness, of having narrow, limited and inadequate concepts of science. Popular books would have appeared announcing the big-bang theory as a new paradigm, and efforts would have been made to get it into high school astronomy textbooks.

However, none of these things happened. In the decades before the big-bang theory achieved its widespread acceptance in the scientific community its proponents were not campaigning for public acceptance of the theory. They were developing the scientific foundations of theory, and many of them were quite tentative about their endorsements of the theory, awaiting confirmation.

Physicist George Gamow worked out a remarkable empirical prediction for the theory: If the big bang is true, he calculated, the universe should be bathed in a certain type of radiation, which might possibly be detectable. Another physicist, Robert Dicke, started working on a detector at Princeton University to measure this radiation. Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson ended up discovering the radiation by accident at Bell Labs in Murray Hill, N.J., in 1965, after which just about everyone accepted the big bang as the correct theory.

Unfortunately, the proponents of ID aren’t operating this way. Instead of doing science, they are writing popular books and op-eds. As a result, ID remains theoretically in the same scientific place it was when Phillip Johnson wrote Darwin on Triallittle more than a roster of evolutionary theory’s weakest links.

When Behe was asked to explicate the science of ID, he simply listed a number of things that were complex and not adequately explained by evolution. These structures, he said, were intelligently designed. Then, under cross-examination, he said that the explanation for these structures was “intelligent activity.” He added that ID “explains” things that appear to be intelligently designed as having resulted from intelligent activity.

Behe denied that this reasoning was tautological and compared the discernment of intelligently designed structures to observing the Sphinx in Egypt and concluding that it could not have been produced by non-intelligent causes. This is a winsome analogy with a lot of intuitive resonance, but it is hardly comparable to Gamow’s carefully derived prediction that the big bang would have bathed the universe in microwave radiation with a temperature signature of 3 degrees Kelvin.

After more than a decade of listening to ID proponents claim that ID is good science, don’t we deserve better than this?


Karl Giberson [the author of this piece] is editor in chief at Science & Theology News.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evochat; goddoodit; idjunkscience; idmillionidiotmarch; intelligentdesign
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To: rootkidslim

H. L. Mencken.


251 posted on 12/05/2005 12:40:12 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: dread78645

Supremely adapted members of female hom sap, and a credit to the good genetic taste of the GM.


252 posted on 12/05/2005 12:40:41 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, bullying feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Is he your source of ultimate truth?

No.

I am.

As a Biochemist and a research-faculty member at a large internationally-known university, I would do the same as the esteemed Dr. Behe's colleagues did............sign a public letter distancing myself from Behe's opinions.

253 posted on 12/05/2005 12:41:24 PM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: dotnetfellow
Evolution has never adequately defended itself against the empirical evidence of punctuated equilibrium. If evolution as an explanation of the origins of life can't hold water, then how can one put the same burden of proof on any other theory.

Nice bait-and-switch! Evolution is not "an explanation of the origins of life," so that has nothing to do with "the same burden of proof on any other theory."

Brush up on some definitions and try again later (from a google search):

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"

Hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"

Guess: an opinion or estimate based on incomplete evidence, or on little or no information

Law: a generalization that describes recurring facts or events in nature; "the laws of thermodynamics"

Assumption: premise: a statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn; "on the assumption that he has been injured we can infer that he will not to play"

Speculation: a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence)

Observation: any information collected with the senses

Data: factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions

Fact: when an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact

Belief: any cognitive content (perception) held as true; religious faith

Faith the belief in something for which there is no evidence or logical proof

Dogma: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

Impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; "his impression of her was favorable"; "what are your feelings about the crisis?"; "it strengthened my belief in his sincerity"; "I had a feeling that she was lying"

Based on this, evolution is a theory. CS and ID are beliefs.

254 posted on 12/05/2005 12:41:53 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: JeffAtlanta

When I was in high school the teacher DID try to pass abiogenesis off as evolution. If that is what teachers and professors are doing, then how come there is no watch dog going after them? Because of the duplicitousness of the evolution militants, that is why.


255 posted on 12/05/2005 12:42:27 PM PST by dotnetfellow
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To: dotnetfellow
"Evolution has never adequately defended itself against the empirical evidence of punctuated equilibrium. If evolution as an explanation of the origins of life can't hold water, then how can one put the same burden of proof on any other theory."

Evolution has NEVER BEEN an explanation for the origins of life. And Punctuated Equalibria theory is not about the origins of life either. Nor is it opposed to evolution in any way, or to natural selection. Nothing you stated is correct.
256 posted on 12/05/2005 12:42:42 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: KeepUSfree
...but ID'ers are the Democrats of Science. ...

Indeed. They're pushing affirmative action to have ID taught as though it were science, just like the race-baiting Dhimms push Ebonics and Afrocentrism as though they were English and history.

Lowering standards just so some group of supporters will feel good about themselves.

Neither the IDers not the Dhimms care how much they're hurting the USA (as well as individual students).

If ID wasn't so transparently a cover for creationism. it might be possible to get the Dhimms to adopt IDers as another one of their affirmative action mascots, but the D*ms hatred of religion makes that impossible.

257 posted on 12/05/2005 12:43:17 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: dotnetfellow
"When I was in high school the teacher DID try to pass abiogenesis off as evolution. If that is what teachers and professors are doing, then how come there is no watch dog going after them? Because of the duplicitousness of the evolution militants, that is why."

Your anecdotal *evidence* is worthless. When I was in high school, my biology teacher (a nun as it turned out) taught us that evolution did not try to explain life's origins. We have now canceled each other's *evidence*.
258 posted on 12/05/2005 12:46:41 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: dotnetfellow
When I was in high school the teacher DID try to pass abiogenesis off as evolution. If that is what teachers and professors are doing, then how come there is no watch dog going after them? Because of the duplicitousness of the evolution militants, that is why.

Soooo, because you were badly taught, you want what exactly?

Evolution to be not taught any more? Non science like ID to be taught in science class? Something else?

259 posted on 12/05/2005 12:49:29 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, bullying feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: dotnetfellow
Evolution has never adequately defended itself against the empirical evidence of punctuated equilibrium.

PE does not contradict evolution. Indeed, Darwin actually postulated punctuated equilibrium in his writings.

260 posted on 12/05/2005 12:52:44 PM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Diamond
It [ID]says nothing about what to expect, projects no data and makes no falsifiable claims.

This is not my statement.

I said that the citations you posted had no data and no experimentation.

But the heuristic aspect that is claimed by one of the writers has not proven itself. After 10 years, there's still no data. If ID is ever going to get on the map it will have to generate data first.

261 posted on 12/05/2005 12:53:18 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Junior

Both are applicable. One cannot test unobserved, unrecorded phenomena but can only make inferences from what exists. One can also dismiss all phenomena as "occuring naturally" whether it occurs naturally or not. In either case, the assertions are no more scientific, and no more provable, than those of ID proponents.


262 posted on 12/05/2005 1:08:28 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: DoctorMichael

To what do you attribute the presence of organized matter?


263 posted on 12/05/2005 1:11:55 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
One cannot test unobserved, unrecorded phenomena but can only make inferences from what exists.

The phenomena in question are not "unrecorded" as I pointed out to you. And they do occur naturally as they are occuring even to this day. You're dancing around the issue.

264 posted on 12/05/2005 1:21:15 PM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
What if...

we just happen to live in a universe that has the property of organizing itself? To me, that is much more feasible than it being organized by some sort of all powerful personage
265 posted on 12/05/2005 1:25:11 PM PST by rootkidslim (... got the Sony rootkit on your Wintel box? You can thank Orrin Hatch!)
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To: Junior
The phenomena in question are not "unrecorded" as I pointed out to you.

The phenomena in question happens to be an arrangement of molecules that results in the formation of a biological entity. Please direct me to that time and place where such phenomena have been observed and recorded; where life has been observed to arise from non-living matter. It is you who are dancing around the issue.

266 posted on 12/05/2005 1:25:34 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Rudder
After 10 years, there's still no data. If ID is ever going to get on the map it will have to generate data first.

And once it does, then we should discuss it. Until it does, it's not worth the time.

267 posted on 12/05/2005 1:26:32 PM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: dotnetfellow
Evolution has never adequately defended itself against the empirical evidence of punctuated equilibrium.

Darwin and Punctuated Equilibrium. "PE" was actually predicted by Darwin.

268 posted on 12/05/2005 1:27:20 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, common scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: rootkidslim

That is one way a person could view the universe as we know it. Many people think of it that way. It is not wholly unreasonable. Nor is it wholly unreasonable to infer that where there is organized matter a designer may be involved. Both points of view will affect how one does science; how one interprets the evidence.

The best evidence for lack of intelligent design is chaos. Science doesn't happen very well where chaos reigns.


269 posted on 12/05/2005 1:28:54 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: jec41
Darwin did not have a degree in medicine (He could not stomach surgery).

His degree was in religion/theology from Cambridge.

His interest in nature was an extracurricular activity.

270 posted on 12/05/2005 1:31:57 PM PST by pby
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To: js1138
Do you have a link to Scientific American's article on Directed Panspermia and the related research?
271 posted on 12/05/2005 1:35:17 PM PST by pby
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The regularity of the world proves a designer.
Irregularities and improbabilities prove a designer.

The Designer designed everything.
We can spot design when we see it.

Life is impossible, therefore ID.
The universe is made for life, therefore ID.

Evolution causes communism.
Evolution causes fascism.
Evolution causes the evils of capitalism.

272 posted on 12/05/2005 1:36:53 PM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, common scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: highball
And once it does, then we should discuss it. Until it does, it's not worth the time.

If it weren't for the Ignorati (what one web site calls the antievolutionists), there would be nothing to say at all.

273 posted on 12/05/2005 1:39:46 PM PST by Rudder
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To: js1138
Just pure speculation.

And Dr. Crick theorized that it was aliens seeding Earth via rocket ships...not meteors from Mars seeded with life of some sort. He even drew pictures of the rocket ships in his book. What was it called...Life Itself?

I liked the comment on chemical evolution equalling abiogenesis though.

274 posted on 12/05/2005 1:43:01 PM PST by pby
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; jec41
While the idea of the transmutation of species was not new with Darwin, his presentation and explanation for the causative agent (Natural selection) WAS new.

Interestingly enough, Linnaeus was led to the conclusion that species aren't fixed.

Was Linnaeus an evolutionist? It is true that he abandoned his earlier belief in the fixity of species, and it is true that hybridization has produced new species of plants, and in some cases of animals. Yet to Linnaeus, the process of generating new species was not open-ended and unlimited.

Source

275 posted on 12/05/2005 1:44:10 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Rudder
I'll cite one: Miller-Urey.

FAILED TO PROVE ABIOGENESIS.

276 posted on 12/05/2005 1:46:28 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: montag813
Those preachers, that you referred to, might just be accurately pointing out the outright misrepresentations in the museum displays relating to human origins, human evolution, horse evolution and dinosaur to bird evolution (complete with feathered dinosaurs that don't even really exist...sinosauroptyrex and so forth).
277 posted on 12/05/2005 1:48:52 PM PST by pby
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To: sauron
"I'll cite one: Miller-Urey.

FAILED TO PROVE ABIOGENESIS."

It was never intended to *prove* abiogensis. No theory is ever *proved*; the experiment was still an important first step in the study of how life began.
278 posted on 12/05/2005 1:49:24 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Servant of the 9

I believe you have missed my point completely. I am in total agreement that Theology cannot be falsified by Science, nor can Science be proved through Theology.

What I am saying is that this journal DOES attempt to verify theology using science and that it does so on the presumption that science will trump theology whenever the two are perceived to conflict. I find this prejudicial and possibly bigoted, certainly unintellectual.

Do we still disagree on any point?


279 posted on 12/05/2005 1:49:57 PM PST by BelegStrongbow
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To: pby

"Those preachers, that you referred to, might just be accurately pointing out the outright misrepresentations in the museum displays relating to human origins, human evolution, horse evolution and dinosaur to bird evolution (complete with feathered dinosaurs that don't even really exist...sinosauroptyrex and so forth)."

What misrepresentations?
BTW, some dinosaurs DID have feathers.


280 posted on 12/05/2005 1:54:27 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: VadeRetro
If a Creator did in fact design Life, then there likely cannot be any evidence to be found: The Creator would reside outsidethe universe, outside of spacetime.

We, as part of the created universe, would have no way of detecting something from "outside" our universe.

So...we have to use other methods.

The clue will be in the Kalam Cosmological Argument (q.v.).

The universe might not yield provable evidence--the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--but the universe could not have CREATED ITSELF.

One can "beg the question" all day and posit brane theory for creating our universe, but sooner or later, you have to pay the piper and ask where the first created universe in our posited multiverse came from.

The answer is always: from OUTSIDE. From an intelligent source not bound by our laws of matter and energy and time. This is hinted at in Genesis, also in Pslams, Isaiah, and other books. How could they have known, 3,000 years ago?

How?

Judeo-Christianity doesn't have a giant turtle holding up a flat earth. It doesn't invoke Atlas. It doesn't say the universe came from a cosmic frog egg that hatched.

The Judeo-Christian worldview, of all religions, very nearly aligns with scientific theory in sequence of what was created. It's remarkable, when you roll up your sleeves and look into it. Remarkable.

The biggest question of all is this: Why should there be SOMETHING...instead of NOTHING?

Peace.

281 posted on 12/05/2005 1:56:16 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: sauron
Miller-Urey
FAILED TO PROVE ABIOGENESIS.

That this failed to produce life means that this failed to produce life.

But what does it have to do with ID or evolution?

282 posted on 12/05/2005 1:56:31 PM PST by Rudder
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Evolution has NEVER BEEN an explanation for the origins of life.

A good many biology textbooks suggest the origin of life as a particular combination of molecules apart from any intelligent agent and leave it at that.

283 posted on 12/05/2005 1:57:35 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
"A good many biology textbooks suggest the origin of life as a particular combination of molecules apart from any intelligent agent and leave it at that."

And this has nothing to do with evolution. It's abiogenesis.

BTW, physics textbooks also say that the planets revolve around the sun without mention of God either. Why don't you get upset over that too?
284 posted on 12/05/2005 1:59:50 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: sauron
"If a Creator did in fact design Life, then there likely cannot be any evidence to be found: The Creator would reside outsidethe universe, outside of spacetime.

We, as part of the created universe, would have no way of detecting something from "outside" our universe."

Thank you for making our point that ID is not a scientific idea.
285 posted on 12/05/2005 2:03:03 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Please try to understand my point: If Science can't prove abiogenesis, it has failed miserably, and should be held accountable.

This will be the ultimate yardstick--abiogenesis shown to be possible under the rigorous standards of a laboratory experiement, peer-reviewed and duplicatable.

Hasn't happened. And we've had DECADES in which to affect a satisfactory result, haven't we?

Has anyone ever wondered why? What's the current view of this in biochemistry?

Do they just dismiss it as "not important" (because they're secretly embarrassed by an inability to explain the process)?

Serious repsonses only, please. ;)

286 posted on 12/05/2005 2:04:05 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: longshadow
They can't, because it makes NO useful (meaning testable) predictions; hence the reason why IDers are so determined to try to change the very definition of science itself to include the supernatural.

That IS the problem with a "Goddidit" theory. Anything you see, God could have done that. See something different tomorrow, God could have done that, too. Hard to imagine ever seeing anything God couldn't have done. Thus, a "Goddidit" theory can't give you much of an idea of what to expect. Everything is consistent with it. Anything is consistent with it. So the real-world information content of the theory is ... zero.

287 posted on 12/05/2005 2:05:18 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: sauron
"Please try to understand my point: If Science can't prove abiogenesis, it has failed miserably, and should be held accountable."

No, it will be like every other theory. None have ever been *proved*. And how will *Science* be held responsible? Will it be spanked and sent to its room?

"This will be the ultimate yardstick--abiogenesis shown to be possible under the rigorous standards of a laboratory experiement, peer-reviewed and duplicatable."

When life is created in a test tube, anti-evolutionists will just say it's an example of ID.

" Hasn't happened. And we've had DECADES in which to affect a satisfactory result, haven't we?"

No. Scientists have just barely started in the investigation. The means to explore the question are only just beginning to be developed.
288 posted on 12/05/2005 2:09:02 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Virginia-American
Was Linnaeus an evolutionist?

I don't know but I am limited to what I can remember from study 35 years ago. The debate is the same but names, agenda, speculation, and concepts have changed. ID, regardless of denial would seem to be a religious agenda. Someone once said that if you are not smart enough to have a profession be a politician. If you can't succeed politically become a preacher and you only have to repeat the same thing over and over.
289 posted on 12/05/2005 2:10:04 PM PST by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: js1138
Is it scientifically "productive" to speculate that aliens seeded the Earth with life, via rocket ships?

And who determines the benchmark and standard that defines productive?

It seems pretty subjective if you ask me.

290 posted on 12/05/2005 2:10:41 PM PST by pby
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To: sauron
Please try to understand my point: If Science can't prove abiogenesis, it has failed miserably, and should be held accountable.

What do you want, up against the adobe wall or something? Some things just take time.

For your consideration.

Clarke's Third Law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

(Recently we could substitute "ID" for "magic.")
291 posted on 12/05/2005 2:10:42 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: sauron
The origin of life on Earth is quite a separate issue from the origin of the universe. There are something like 10 billion years separating the one from the other. We may or may not ever get much of a handle on the origin of the universe.

The origin of life on Earth is a toughie in its own way. We may identify some number of scenarios by which it may have happened. We may create life from non-life in the laboratory. Even if we do, creationists will only cite the demonstration as proof that life is designed. At any rate it won't prove that the original abiogenesis event happened along the same lines.

Both of these questions are separate from whether life on Earth now is the result of common descent diversifying via variation and natural selection. This one already has a huge preponderance of evidence for it, none against, and must be taught in biology classes if biology is to be properly understood.

292 posted on 12/05/2005 2:13:01 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: sauron
And we've had DECADES in which to affect a satisfactory result, haven't we?

Was there a deadline?

293 posted on 12/05/2005 2:14:46 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Thank you for making our point that ID is not a scientific idea.

NO, I'm actually in full agreement with that statement. NO difference of opinion, there.

We, as a species, are forever unable to use science to prove/disprove ID claims. I find them intellectually challenging. Just because we can't disprove/prove doesn't mean they aren't valid (as you probably realize).

The intent of my argument was to carry the idea further, out of the realm of biology and into physics, where it would be provable, through deduction: the universe cannot have created itself. (Q.v., Kalam Cosmological Argument, no such thing as an actual infinite, begging the question, etc.)

The universe cannot have been created through the agency of other matter and energy coming from elsewhere, because it would merely beg the question: what created that? Therefore, "brane theory" falls apart.

I am constantly suprised that Christians are challenged (fairly, I must say) by those who attack their claims saying that Christians (or Deists) invoke God when they can't explain something. We do. But the rhetorical rules must be evenly applied: When physicists can't explain Big Bang, they just as deceitfully resort to brane theory, which is violating the same rhetorical principles, and is also a cop-out, begging the question, giving us no answer.

They're too proud to admit it. They also don't want to play by the same rules they attempt to hold Deists to.

It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that an Intelligent Designer created Life. If the universe created it (Pantheism), then the ultimate quesiton would be, fine, what created the universe? Again, the mind is pointed toward an extra-univeral entity.

Don't get me wrong: Science and the Judeo-Christian religion point strongly to each other. There is no conflict between them which will not be resolved as it always has been.

Peace.

Sauron

294 posted on 12/05/2005 2:17:58 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: shuckmaster

"I'm convinced that Behe and thus ID are nothing but a book selling charlatan hoax"

I found Behe's book compelling. No trace of charaltanism anywhere that I could detect, merely a great of deal of very intriguing information. Have you read it? Cite for me those passages that you feel are charlatan. I promise, I'll go to my copy and re-read them and then get back to you.


295 posted on 12/05/2005 2:20:43 PM PST by KamperKen
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To: antiRepublicrat; oblomov
You'd be amazed how many people can't figure that one out.

When another student in college showed me that proof, I almost slapped him. Not until oblomov's #109 did I see where it breaks down. Thanks!

296 posted on 12/05/2005 2:23:14 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: pby
No, it would merely beg the question.

I'm looking at first causes.

297 posted on 12/05/2005 2:23:33 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: dotnetfellow
These articles always fail to address the elephant in the room: Evolution has never adequately defended itself against the empirical evidence of punctuated equilibrium. If evolution as an explanation of the origins of life can't hold water,

Darwin talks about what is now called punctuated equalibrium in "Origin of Species". Please specify the "evidence of punctuated equlibrium" to which you refer. No biologist is surprised to hear that evolution moves faster when the environment changes faster.

then how can one put the same burden of proof on any other theory.

There is no such thing as proof in a natural science.

298 posted on 12/05/2005 2:23:41 PM PST by donh
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To: sauron
"The intent of my argument was to carry the idea further, out of the realm of biology and into physics, where it would be provable, through deduction: the universe cannot have created itself."

Physics isn't provable either. The universe may be a simple consequence of the laws of nature.

"When physicists can't explain Big Bang, they just as deceitfully resort to brane theory, which is violating the same rhetorical principles, and is also a cop-out, begging the question, giving us no answer."

Physicists can explain the Big Bang. Just not completely. No science explains reality completely.

" It is completely plausible, given the facts that we have, that an Intelligent Designer created Life."

Or not.

"If the universe created it (Pantheism), then the ultimate quesiton would be, fine, what created the universe? "

Unanswerable. Mystics aren't intellectually honest enough to admit they may not know something.

"Again, the mind is pointed toward an extra-univeral entity."

Some minds. Could also be a million entities, working in committee fashion. No way to know.

"Don't get me wrong: Science and the Judeo-Christian religion point strongly to each other. There is no conflict between them which will not be resolved as it always has been."

As long as religion changes to fit the physical evidence.
299 posted on 12/05/2005 2:25:43 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Junior

Vice Admiral Sir John Cunningham: Ah, hello. [snip] may I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the British Navy. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find tooth marks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up.


300 posted on 12/05/2005 2:26:11 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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