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Intelligent designís long march to nowhere
Science & Theology News ^ | 05 December 2005 | Karl Giberson

Posted on 12/05/2005 4:06:56 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: Paul Ross
A non-substantive response. This, for instance.

You can't read contextually, can you. This was for HIGHER VERTEBRATES. Remember that? Guess not.

Nobody rebutted by asking "What about bacteria?" Yes, higher vertebrates, slow reproduction. So what?

The rebuttals were that 1) the "cost of substitution" is less than Haldane figured," 2) Haldane's model was not allowing for the massive parallelism of substitutions in nature, and 3) ReMine was using a bad model to rebut a hard fact.

This misbegotten effort by you to obfuscate your chalatan ways....is manifest.

My irony meter is staring to overheat.

And medved was the one always thumped on the Haldane Dilemma, not vice versa. Seems to me he did the same as you, misquoting.

I have to my own knowledge misquoted no one. I mentioned medved merely as a poster who often trotted out ReMine on these threads. You have no basis that I can see for announcing that he has misquoted ReMine. If anyone at all has misquoted ReMine, I don't see it.

You're acting like a cornered rat.

801 posted on 12/07/2005 2:27:12 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro
Remine is a shuck-and-jive furniture-chewing ham amateur magician

Vade,

Pardon me but I have never heard the term "furniture-chewing" before - what does it mean? I googled and all I could find was stuff about getting your dog to stop chewing the furniture.

Thanks
-LVD

802 posted on 12/07/2005 2:30:40 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
Bad overacting is "chewing the furniture." Really, it doesn't Google? I thought it went back as far as "break a leg."
803 posted on 12/07/2005 2:33:03 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Last Visible Dog
AKA "chewing the scenery."
804 posted on 12/07/2005 2:34:18 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Last Visible Dog
Your Google missed Ben Kingsley, for starters.

Who doesn't love and admire actor Ben Kingsley and his riveting performances as Gandhi or Don Logan in Sexy Beast or Behrani in House of Sand and Fog? But now comes word that the actor born Krishna Banji insists on being called "Sir Ben" in social situations. (Sir Ben was knighted by Queen Elizabeth in the New Year's Eve Honors List of 2001). This year, Academy Awards voters reportedly aren't too impressed with Sir Ben's requirement. And the actor only seems to have dug himself deeper with this defense: "I think 'Sir Ben' is lovely. The word 'mister' has just disappeared for me. It's like, when you become a doctor after years of study. I suppose after years of chewing the furniture, I get the 'Sir' for being a thespian."
http://www.bensherwood.com/weblog/2004_02_01_bensherwood_archive.html.
805 posted on 12/07/2005 2:38:04 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro; jennyp
As a connoissuer of the genre, it reminded me of the intro to your generic crackpot book.

Now it is possible that someone who thinks like a crackpot may have hit on the truth, but is it really practical to tell the time with a stopped watch?

806 posted on 12/07/2005 2:44:42 PM PST by Oztrich Boy ( the Wedge Document ... offers a message of hope for Muslims - Mustafa Akyol)
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To: Oztrich Boy
That is not the sense in which any literate person from Thomas Aquinus on has used it.

Let me get this straight - you are claiming you speak for every literate person from Thomas Aquinus on? Wow!

It has always meant "transcending the powers or ordinary course of nature"

Which can also be phrased as "beyond our current understanding of the natural world". Transcending means " To pass beyond the limits of" - "powers or ordinary course" are fluff and your definition used the word nature while I used " understanding of the natural world" - unless you are trying to argue nature (or better put: man's understanding of nature) is a fixed unchanging commodity, there is no conflict between the definition you cited and the one I posted.

But if your "what will eventually discovered to have a natural explanation" is to be used, how will that erxplanation ever be found if science declines to look for it.

That really does not make any sense.

Perhaps you can tell us how science can abandon empiricism and still be science.

You are not making any sense. I never claimed science should abandon empiricism.

807 posted on 12/07/2005 2:48:18 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: VadeRetro
AKA "chewing the scenery."

I was into acting in my youth - I am familar with that term.

808 posted on 12/07/2005 2:52:53 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: VadeRetro
It's like, when you become a doctor after years of study. I suppose after years of chewing the furniture, I get the 'Sir' for being a thespian."

Ah, that brings back memories. When I was interviewing with the drama department at college - I told them I was a charter member of my high school's thesbian society.

809 posted on 12/07/2005 2:57:23 PM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Last Visible Dog
Some politician's wife was once exposed as a notorious thespian.
810 posted on 12/07/2005 2:59:44 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
Now it is possible that someone who thinks like a crackpot may have hit on the truth, but is it really practical to tell the time with a stopped watch?

That might be another good question sometime. ReMine apparently has written forest-destroying quantities of words here and there on Message Theory. Does anybody but ReMine profess to understand it?

811 posted on 12/07/2005 3:02:53 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Diamond
Well, if it has been debunked then you can't say it's unfalsifiable, can you?

An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly by numerous, successive, slight modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional. .... Since natural selection can only choose systems that are already working, then if a biological system cannot be produced gradually it would have to arise as an integrated unit, in one fell swoop, for natural selection to have anything to act on."
(Behe - Darwin's Black Box)
- and -
In fact, intelligent design is open to direct experimental rebuttal... In Darwin's Black Box I claimed that the bacterial flagellum was irreducibly complex and so required deliberate intelligent design. The flip side of this claim is that the flagellum can't be produced by natural selection acting on random mutation, or any other unintelligent process.
(Behe - Biology and Philosophy. Nov 2001
The claim is bacterial flagellum was "irreducibly complex" and an evoluntionary sequence was impossible.
A evoluntionary pathway has been shown, so Behe's claim fails.

Please point to any scientific article which delineates the actual, not hypthetical, merely conceivable, or logically possible, but ontologically possible, confirmed by experimental evidence, origin of the bacterial flagellum by purely Darwinian means, i.e., by numerous, successive, slight modifications.

I hear the scraping noise of goalposts moving ...

Raphidiophrys pallida - axopodia that aren't used for motility.

A choanocyte from a freshwater sponge - Choanoflagellates critters with flagella that don't swim.

Synechococcus - A nonflagellated swimming cyanobacterium.

Halobacterium salinarum - flagella unlike the E. coli "motor".

Analysis of the motA flagellar motor gene from Rhodobacter sphaeroides - I guess the designer forgot the reverse gear in this model.

Irreducible Complexity Demystified - Swimming Systems

Yersinia enterocolitica - Type III Secretion Depends on the Proton Motive Force but Not on the Flagellar Motor Components MotA and MotB

Evolution in (Brownian) space - a model for the origin of the bacterial flagellum

Secretion by bacterial flagella - Linking the Type III secretion system (TTSS) to flagellum.

812 posted on 12/07/2005 3:55:34 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: js1138

It's stupid to pursue things you have demonstrated are impossible. Chemists don't waste time trying to make stable compounds of Helium Oxide and Physicists don't waste time trying to build perpetual motion machines. Spontaneous generation is the perpetual motion machine of biology, yet folks continue trying to convince people that you can build one.


813 posted on 12/07/2005 5:50:28 PM PST by frgoff
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To: VadeRetro; Paul Ross

For the record, IIRC additional responses to Haldane's Dilemma are 4) nearby genes will hitch a ride on the ones being selected and 5) no one knows just how much of the genetic difference really makes a difference (i.e. how much is neutral and therefore not subject to Haldane's analysis).


814 posted on 12/07/2005 5:51:30 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Very good! Thanks.
815 posted on 12/07/2005 6:14:44 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: dread78645
I hear the scraping noise of goalposts moving

Yes, but do you have nanosecond-by-nanosecond photo sequences of the process reporodued in a lab? That's how far those goalposts have moved at this point. Move them any farther and they'll start circling around back to each other.

816 posted on 12/07/2005 6:30:14 PM PST by RogueIsland
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To: VadeRetro
... a notorious thespian.

Did she have a lisp?

817 posted on 12/07/2005 7:53:19 PM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: VadeRetro

I once saw a couple of thespians masticating in the dining room of the Four Seasons.


818 posted on 12/08/2005 7:09:24 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
In front of EVERYBODY!!??
819 posted on 12/08/2005 7:31:45 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: VadeRetro

At least, neither expectorated in public.


820 posted on 12/08/2005 7:43:56 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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