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To: VadeRetro
If a Creator did in fact design Life, then there likely cannot be any evidence to be found: The Creator would reside outsidethe universe, outside of spacetime.

We, as part of the created universe, would have no way of detecting something from "outside" our universe.

So...we have to use other methods.

The clue will be in the Kalam Cosmological Argument (q.v.).

The universe might not yield provable evidence--the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence--but the universe could not have CREATED ITSELF.

One can "beg the question" all day and posit brane theory for creating our universe, but sooner or later, you have to pay the piper and ask where the first created universe in our posited multiverse came from.

The answer is always: from OUTSIDE. From an intelligent source not bound by our laws of matter and energy and time. This is hinted at in Genesis, also in Pslams, Isaiah, and other books. How could they have known, 3,000 years ago?

How?

Judeo-Christianity doesn't have a giant turtle holding up a flat earth. It doesn't invoke Atlas. It doesn't say the universe came from a cosmic frog egg that hatched.

The Judeo-Christian worldview, of all religions, very nearly aligns with scientific theory in sequence of what was created. It's remarkable, when you roll up your sleeves and look into it. Remarkable.

The biggest question of all is this: Why should there be SOMETHING...instead of NOTHING?

Peace.

281 posted on 12/05/2005 1:56:16 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: sauron
"If a Creator did in fact design Life, then there likely cannot be any evidence to be found: The Creator would reside outsidethe universe, outside of spacetime.

We, as part of the created universe, would have no way of detecting something from "outside" our universe."

Thank you for making our point that ID is not a scientific idea.
285 posted on 12/05/2005 2:03:03 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: sauron
The origin of life on Earth is quite a separate issue from the origin of the universe. There are something like 10 billion years separating the one from the other. We may or may not ever get much of a handle on the origin of the universe.

The origin of life on Earth is a toughie in its own way. We may identify some number of scenarios by which it may have happened. We may create life from non-life in the laboratory. Even if we do, creationists will only cite the demonstration as proof that life is designed. At any rate it won't prove that the original abiogenesis event happened along the same lines.

Both of these questions are separate from whether life on Earth now is the result of common descent diversifying via variation and natural selection. This one already has a huge preponderance of evidence for it, none against, and must be taught in biology classes if biology is to be properly understood.

292 posted on 12/05/2005 2:13:01 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: sauron
Stanley MIller and Harold Urey set out to test the Oparin and Haldane hypothesis which postulated that, under the reducing conditions of early earth's atmospheric chemistry, inorganic molecules would spontaneously form organic molecules of simple sugars and amino acids. Their results supported the Oparin and Haldane hypothesis.

Miller and Urey did not set out to produce life (abiogenesis) but they did demonstrate how, under certain conditions, biological molecules could have been created via an abiotic (non-biological) process.

Are you citing this work as a example of ID experimentation?

301 posted on 12/05/2005 2:27:09 PM PST by Rudder
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