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Free trade bandwagon loses its steam
The Age (Australia) ^ | 6. December 2005 | Tim Colebatch

Posted on 12/05/2005 6:56:18 AM PST by 1rudeboy

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To: HamiltonJay

Jay, I was PROVING YOUR POINT, not arguing with you!!!!


61 posted on 12/05/2005 9:27:00 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Ok... you never know these days... lots of folks think DEBT living = greater standard of living.. when in fact it robs them blind.


62 posted on 12/05/2005 9:29:07 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay

I guess OI didn't make myself clear. I cited my parents as an example of healthy financial living.

I posted the other as an example of today's upper middle class schmo. I apologize for having been vague.


63 posted on 12/05/2005 9:30:27 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: 1rudeboy

A lot of our poor and lower middle class used to have better paying jobs. But their jobs were out sourced to China and Mexico. End result is that Wal Mart, with it's cheap Chinese merchandise, is the only place they can afford.

A vicious circle, downward spiral is created


64 posted on 12/05/2005 9:32:01 AM PST by dennisw (You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you - Bob Dylan)
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To: HamiltonJay

"lots of folks think DEBT living = greater standard of living.. when in fact it robs them blind."

Correct


65 posted on 12/05/2005 9:32:27 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: 1rudeboy
Governments "redistribute" wealth

You are calling the WTO a 'government'.
66 posted on 12/05/2005 9:38:56 AM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: stephenjohnbanker
And China, with its undervalued currency, will keep winning."

How does an undervalued currency make you a winner? You sell your stuff too cheap and you buy your stuff too expensive. Sounds like a government plan, not a winning plan.

67 posted on 12/05/2005 10:26:27 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: HamiltonJay
He wants to cite "standard of living" as sign of growth.. instead of REAL WEALTH.

That's right because if you looked at household net worth you'd see that it's at an all time high.

68 posted on 12/05/2005 10:34:27 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: Ace of Spades

Correct!


69 posted on 12/05/2005 10:36:11 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: hedgetrimmer
I would say that the $20 billion a year that goes to Mexico via remittiances is a massive loss of wealth. In a sovereign society, that money would be spent here in the US bolstering local economies.

You know that US dollars are only useful when buying US goods? So how does that not boost local economies?

70 posted on 12/05/2005 10:36:26 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: hedgetrimmer
Are you talking about citizens or illegal aliens with money they acquired through criminal violations of labor laws?

There isn't anyone on this thread who isn't against illegal immigration. For some reason though you keep trying to equate the simple belief in free trade with support for illegal immigration. It's a horse that won't ride and you should stop beating it. It's dead.

Since NAFTA, our real GDP has increased from about $7.5 trillion in 1993 to almost $12 trillion today. The unemployment rate in 1993 was 7%. Today it's 5%. The S&P 500 was 466 in 1993, today it's 1,262.

The only giant sucking sound anyone hears today is from the holes in your argument that free(r) trade has somehow been bad for us.

71 posted on 12/05/2005 10:37:35 AM PST by Mase
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To: Ace of Spades
A large part of China's workforce is slave labor. How exactly do you plan to compete with that?

Three questions:

(1) When you say "slave labor," do you mean chattel slavery? (If not, how do you define "slavery"?)

(2) What fraction of the Chinese labor force consists of slaves?

(3) Is slave labor more productive than free labor?

72 posted on 12/05/2005 10:38:33 AM PST by Logophile
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To: Toddsterpatriot

They BUY in asia where everything is cheaper than the US.
They STEAL technology in the U.S. as a profession.


73 posted on 12/05/2005 10:39:23 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: Logophile

five dollars for a 14 hour work day.


74 posted on 12/05/2005 10:40:08 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: Toddsterpatriot

"That's right because if you looked at household net worth you'd see that it's at an all time high."

No, it is NOT.


75 posted on 12/05/2005 10:42:05 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker
five dollars for a 14 hour work day.

Which of my questions are you answering?

76 posted on 12/05/2005 10:43:58 AM PST by Logophile
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To: Mase
For some reason though you keep trying to equate the simple belief in free trade with support for illegal immigration.

Because the "free trader" in the white house won't do anything about it because illegal immigration is a key feature to forming the North American Union. He's giving a speech right now, why isn't he saying anything about the Mexican governments assertion that 400,000 or more Mexican citizens will come to the US next year and the numbers are only going to increase? Because the "free movement of persons" is part of the GATS and will be negotiated at the Doha this month, despite the sovereign laws of our nation that only give Congress the authority to regulate immigration.
77 posted on 12/05/2005 10:46:22 AM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: stephenjohnbanker
They BUY in asia where everything is cheaper than the US.

How does a weaker currency make you a winner no matter where you buy?

They STEAL technology in the U.S. as a profession.

How is this related to their currency again?

78 posted on 12/05/2005 10:46:35 AM PST by Toddsterpatriot (The Federal Reserve did not kill JFK. Greenspan was not on the grassy knoll.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Not remotely true.

The bulk of that "NET WORTH" is tied up to PAPER appreciation in their homes.. which, can disappear as quickly as it appeared... not to mention, that most folks have taken nearly every ounce of equity out of it as well.

Real Dollars, net worth is not remotely at an all time high. I've seen real estate markets lose over 100k in home value less than 12 months.. average cycle is 8 years.... most folks seem to forget or are ignorant of the fact that it doesn't always go up.

In terms of real dollars, and TRUE WEALTH... the typical household could not handle unemployment for more than 2-3 months before being flat broke.


79 posted on 12/05/2005 10:47:30 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay; stephenjohnbanker
lots of folks think DEBT living = greater standard of living.. when in fact it robs them blind.

Yes, some folks are living beyond their means and will certainly get in trouble for that reason. However, household net worth has almost hit $50 trillion (a record) and is double what it was just a decade ago. Makes it difficult to argue all that debt is killing us when those net worth numbers just keep going up, doesn't it?

80 posted on 12/05/2005 10:49:29 AM PST by Mase
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