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Battle Resumes Over FBI Fishing Expeditions Into Gun Records - Contact your Rep. and Senators
Gun Owners of America ^ | December 6, 2005 | NA

Posted on 12/07/2005 11:29:04 AM PST by neverdem

www.gunowners.org
Dec 2005

Battle Resumes Over FBI Fishing Expeditions Into Gun Records
-- Please contact your Rep. and Senators immediately

Gun Owners of America
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102
Springfield, VA 22151
(703)321-8585

Tuesday, December 6, 2005

House and Senate negotiators are reportedly close to hammering out differences on legislation that could greatly impact gun owners.

You will remember that before the Thanksgiving break, legislators were trying to ram PATRIOT Act revisions through the Congress and onto the Presidents desk.

Some of these revisions would improve the PATRIOT Act... some would not.

Of greatest concern to gun owners is a provision in H.R. 3199 that would allow the FBI to obtain "firearms sales records."

The bill extends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act and allows agents of the federal government to get "firearms sales records" which, in their opinion, are relevant to investigating terrorism.

These records would be obtained from gun dealers, who are required by law to keep the gun purchase records (4473 forms). Thus, an anti-gun administration could then easily compile gun owner registration lists -- an enterprise which has often been a prelude to gun confiscation.

Of course, more than just your gun purchase records are at stake. Financial and medical records, library records and much more are also open to FBI fishing expeditions. They don't have to get any prior approval from any court.

This has led to concerns that the FBI is already infringing upon the rights of law-abiding Americans.

Consider that the FBI -- because of a Freedom of Information Act request -- recently revealed that the amount of information that the agency has gleaned on private citizens has exploded since the passage of the original PATRIOT Act in 2001.

The FBI has issued about 30,000 "national security letters" (NSLs) per year since the Act passed -- NSLs referring to a kind of administrative subpoena power where the FBI can get private records on individuals without a court order.

Such power has led to tremendous violations already. According to The Washington Post, there have been several violations that are "serious enough that the FBI itself determined they must be reported to an executive branch agency called the Intelligence Oversight Board."

Clearly, there is a thirst in Washington for obtaining records on private individuals. And that is why we do NOT want the FBI soliciting information on gun owners from 4473 forms. The stakes are high in regard to passage of H.R. 3199.

The House-Senate agreement on the bill seemed to be a done deal last month, until outside groups (including GOA) and Republican Senators (like Larry Craig of Idaho) issued statements of opposition to the latest version of the bill.

The several dozen organizations that have expressed concern over the bill span the political spectrum, and include groups such as the American Conservative Union, Gun Owners of America and Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances (which is headed by former Rep. Bob Barr).

In all, there are six Senators who have threatened to lead a filibuster on the bill. Three are Democrats; three are Republicans.

Right now, this is an issue that is of utmost priority in the Congress. "The Patriot Act is something that we are spending a lot of time on right now," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist last week. "Our objective is to complete that... as soon as possible."

This bill is clearly on the fast track. It is rumored on Capitol Hill that negotiators are nearing a deal on H.R. 3199. You can greatly help by making them aware that gun owners are closely watching what they do on the subject of "firearms sales records."

ACTION: Please ask your Representative and Senators to ensure that the words "firearms sales records" are deleted from the warrantless records provisions of H.R. 3199.

You can visit the Gun Owners Legislative Action Center at http://www.gunowners.org/activism.htm to send your Representative and Senators a pre-written e-mail message such as the one below.

-----Pre-written letter-----

Dear Representative / Senator:

Gun owners are very concerned about a specific provision in the PATRIOT Act expansion bill (H.R. 3199), as it would allow the United States government to seize every lawful gun sale record in the country... solely on the basis of a bureaucrat's determination that a national registry of gun owners would be useful in an anti-terrorism investigation.

H.R. 3199 extends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act, which allows agents of the federal government to get "firearms sales records" which, in their opinion, are relevant to investigating terrorism. FFL holders must retain copies of the 4473 forms (yellow sheets) filled out on every gun sale. Thus, an anti-gun administration could easily determine that such records would be useful in the fight against terrorism, and demand them all.

Even more ominous, the gun dealers would be required NOT to disclose the existence of the investigation to their customers, meaning that the dealer (rather than the gun purchaser) would be the only person who could contest this action. And why should he risk his livelihood on my behalf? This is massive gun control by simple executive fiat.

There is an illusory right to challenge the secrecy of the court orders, but it's just that... an illusion. If the government claims there is a national security issue at stake or that there's an ongoing criminal investigation, then the FBI's fishing expedition could remain a secret and remain unchallenged.

Right now, there is debate over whether to sunset the provisions in Section 215 -- and how soon that sunset should "kick in." Regardless, "firearms sales records" need to be deleted from the warrantless records provisions of H.R. 3199, as they are an unconstitutional infringement upon the privacy of America's gun owners.

I believe that a national gun registry is a step this country cannot afford to take, and one that the citizenry will not abide.

I would ask you, in the strongest terms, to ensure that "firearms sales records" are deleted from the warrantless records provisions of H.R. 3199. Thank you.

Sincerely,


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 1984; backintheussr; banglist; donutwatch; govwatch; patriotact
Your personal letter would be better!
1 posted on 12/07/2005 11:29:06 AM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Why does the FBI need that with the background check? They already get to approve every legal firearms purchase.


2 posted on 12/07/2005 11:45:01 AM PST by meatloaf
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To: meatloaf
Why does the FBI need that with the background check? They already get to approve every legal firearms purchase.

Any record of a legal NICS transaction is supposed to be destroyed within 24 hours by an Act of Congress. FFL dealers are required to keep the hard copies of the 4473 forms.

3 posted on 12/07/2005 12:30:12 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

We are at war.
If you do nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
The Police are always right.
It's for The Children.


4 posted on 12/07/2005 12:34:15 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: neverdem

Do we know if this is Shumer's bill or something else? It sounds far worse than the way I've heard Shumer's bill described (basically states reporting gun crimes, not gun sales...)


5 posted on 12/07/2005 1:09:37 PM PST by gondramB ( We don't get no government loan and no one sends a check from home-we just do what what we wanna)
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To: neverdem
OK,
Do I understand this correctly? Our elected representatives are working away on two separate laws at the same time .
The first says I, a US Citizen, can buy a gun I'm legally entitled to own, and the FBI can then get a record of that purchase without my knowing about it, and without their having a warrant.
The second says Abdullah, a captured terrorist, can plan on using an illegally owned gun to commit terror in the US, and the CIA or FBI can't harm a hair on his head in an effort to find out his plans.

Does that cover it?
6 posted on 12/07/2005 1:25:02 PM PST by SWO
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To: gondramB; SWO
"The bill extends Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act and allows agents of the federal government to get "firearms sales records" which, in their opinion, are relevant to investigating terrorism.

"These records would be obtained from gun dealers, who are required by law to keep the gun purchase records (4473 forms)."

I don't know anything about a bill by Senator Putzhead.

7 posted on 12/07/2005 1:32:04 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

can someone give me a number of terrorist attacks that have occured that could have been stopped if the FBI could have gotten the 4473?


8 posted on 12/08/2005 5:59:53 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: neverdem

Few care about rights anymore. The conservatives are joining the Clintonists in lock-step march to bigger and better government.


9 posted on 12/08/2005 8:40:42 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: neverdem

I need some help.

Here's a link to the legislation:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:5:./temp/~c109WkPcc2:e425:

I cannot find the wording that is bringing up the alert. Where am I wrong or poor-sighted?


10 posted on 12/08/2005 8:51:31 AM PST by Loud Mime (Bad Lawmakers = Bad Law = Infinite Lawyers)
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To: Loud Mime

Those links are temporary. You need to backtrack to an earlier link. Check Section 215, IIRC.


11 posted on 12/08/2005 10:12:49 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem
FFL dealers are required to keep the hard copies of the 4473 forms.

And this is what the Feds already use to come knocking at your door.

I fail to see what this will prohibit other than demanding such files wholesale.

12 posted on 12/08/2005 10:16:12 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Few care about rights anymore. The conservatives are joining the Clintonists in lock-step march to bigger and better government.

While I agree with many of them philosophically, some "conservatives" are just right-wing statists. Where did all those small government "conservatives" go?

13 posted on 12/08/2005 10:20:24 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

There were never any small-government conservatives. Many if not most conservatives came from the anti-communist movements; they are basically Nixonian big-government types. They oppose big government when people like Clinton are in power; but now they approve.

Note how many support government fishing expeditions for gun licenses, forcing people to have identification to ride a bus, requiring you to give ID to police with no probable cause, etc.

The "conservatives" did oppose Clinton's "know your customer" banking regulations but then jumped all over themselves to support Andrew Young's and Gary Hart's Patriot Act which imposed even more requirements on banks.

The US has become very European, rather than Republicans and Democrats we have the Christian Socialists and the Social Democrats.


14 posted on 12/08/2005 10:37:45 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Loud Mime; Doctor Stochastic; El Gato; Travis McGee; Squantos; Joe Brower; DMZFrank; ...

Go back to the link in comment 10 and enter into "Thomas":

firearms sales records

Click on [H.R.3199.EAS]

then click on SEC. 7. PATRIOT SECTION 215; PROCEDURAL PROTECTIONS FOR COURT ORDERS TO PRODUCE RECORDS AND OTHER ITEMS IN INTELLIGENCE INVESTIGATIONS.

You'll find the following:

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(3) No application shall be made under this section for an order requiring the production of library circulation records , library patron lists, book sales records , book customer lists, firearms sales records , or medical records containing personally identifiable information without the prior written approval of the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Director may delegate authority to approve such an application to the Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, but such authority may not be further delegated.'.

--snip--

`(3) the total number of applications made for orders approving requests for the production of tangible things under section 501, and the total number of orders either granted, modified, or denied, when the application or order involved any of the following:

`(A) The production of tangible things from a library, as defined in section 213(2) of the Library Services and Technology Act (20 U.S.C. 9122(2)).

`(B) The production of tangible things from a person or entity primarily engaged in the sale, rental, or delivery of books, journals, magazines, or other similar forms of communication whether in print or digitally.

`(C) The production of records related to the purchase of a firearm, as defined in section 921(a)(3) of title 18, United States Code.


15 posted on 12/08/2005 3:37:32 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem; albertp; Allosaurs_r_us; Abram; AlexandriaDuke; Americanwolf; Annie03; Baby Bear; ...
Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
16 posted on 12/08/2005 4:30:04 PM PST by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/french_riots.htm)
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To: neverdem

My Rep and Senators don't care.


17 posted on 12/08/2005 5:28:59 PM PST by BostonianRightist ("Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." ~ Senator Goldwater)
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To: Lady Jag

Did you see this one...?


18 posted on 12/08/2005 5:44:51 PM PST by Seadog Bytes (“The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.”—Edmund Burke)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

"The US has become very European, rather than Republicans and Democrats we have the Christian Socialists and the Social Democrats."

Sad-but-true-BUMP!


19 posted on 12/08/2005 6:19:20 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (Cowards cut and run. Marines never do. Murtha can ESAD, that cowardly, no-longer-a-Marine, traitor.)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping!


20 posted on 12/08/2005 8:56:43 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Travis McGee; Joe Brower; Mr. Mojo; DaveLoneRanger; Eaker

ping


21 posted on 12/08/2005 10:37:58 PM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: neverdem
lets review how abused the patriot act has been so far.

A New Jersey man accused with using a laser to beam pilots of two planes has been charged under the Patriot Act. The FBI has acknowledged that the incident does not have any relation to terrorism but called David Banach's actions "foolhardy and negligent."

"An analysis of the Justice Department's own list of terrorism prosecutions by The Washington Post shows that 39 people, not 200, as officials have implied, were convicted of crimes related to terrorism or national security."

The Post report said, "Most of the others were convicted of relatively minor crimes such as making false statements and violating immigration law and had nothing to do with terrorism."

Treasury Department figures reviewed by Newsweek show that this year the Feds have used the Patriot Act to conduct searches on 962 suspects, yielding "hits" on 6,397 financial records. Of those, two thirds (4,261) were in money-laundering cases with no terror connection. Among the agencies making requests, Newsweek has learned, were the IRS (which investigates tax fraud), the Postal Service (postal fraud) and the Secret Service counterfeiting). One request came from the Agriculture Department -- a case that apparently involved food stamp fraud.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri filed an action against PayPal for violating the PATRIOT Act (18 U.S.C. 1960), based on PayPal's use in processing funds transfered for online gambling."

There are other troublesome aspects of The Patriot Act. Take, for example, Title III, aimed at money laundering. This became part of the Act at the insistence of Democrats that include Senators Daschle and Kerry. The Justice Department has used it to investigate corruption allegations against a Las Vegas strip club owner!

then there wasthe case that icant find a link to right now where the department of homeland security radied a mom and pop toy store in oregon and forced them to stop selling copys of knock off rubics cubes after the rubiks company called them even though thier patent ran out in 1995

22 posted on 12/08/2005 11:14:48 PM PST by freepatriot32 (Holding you head high & voting Libertarian is better then holding your nose and voting republican)
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To: freepatriot32; MNJohnnie; LibertarianInExile; traviskicks; DMZFrank; Squantos; Travis McGee; ...
IIRC, you should have pinged MNJohnnie for comment 22. I think he wanted just three examples.

In order to feel secure, are we throwing away our freedom?

"Please list for me three concrete real examples of where the Patriot act has been used to deprive US Citizens of their rights."

Thank you, freepatriot32. I have 1 bookmark for 2 reasons.

23 posted on 12/09/2005 12:07:55 AM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

My legislators have been notified ~ Bump!


24 posted on 12/09/2005 7:12:41 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: freepatriot32

The Rubik's Cube case does appear to be a case of government (DHS) overreach, but not necessarily Patriot Act.

http://www.reason.com/hitandrun/2004/10/step_back_from.shtml

The original story is no longer up at Yahoo, but judging from this left wing blog post ( http://interestingtimes.blogspot.com/archives/2004_10_24_interestingtimes_archive.html ) it began like this:

"ST. HELENS, Ore. - So far as she knows, Pufferbelly Toys owner Stephanie Cox hasn't been passing any state secrets to sinister foreign governments, or violating obscure clauses in the Patriot Act."

Which is how people made the Patriot Act connection -- the original writer threw it in.

It does seem like these feds were way out of line, but they weren't using the Patriot Act, except maybe as a smokescreen to create some of the Nacht Und Nebel vibe they're so fond of.

I'm glad that the border is so secure that ICE can go to St. Helens, Oregon to chase obscure trademark violations... right?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F


25 posted on 12/09/2005 4:31:46 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: neverdem

Why do I get the feeling I will become a 'statistic'?


26 posted on 12/09/2005 4:55:49 PM PST by Tench_Coxe
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To: Doctor Stochastic
"The conservatives are joining the Clintonists in lock-step march to bigger and better government."

So right. I just saw an article, with which I agree, asserting that many conservatives are now showing that they, except for the accident of their births in the U.S., would be followers of, say, Sadaam were they born in Iraq, Stalin were they born in 1940's Russia, etc. They are statists hiding under the misnomer, "conservative."

Personally, I think the proof is asking where they were when all the media were liberal and when the House and Senate were Democrat, i.e., when it was unpopular and lonely to be unabashedly conservative. Most of the ones I'm talking about were under their beds.

I would post that article, but you know how long it--and I--would last.

Anyway, thanks for continuing to point that out.

27 posted on 12/10/2005 9:44:57 AM PST by jammer
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