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Most dangerous city?
The Associated Press and MSNBC ^ | 11/21/2005

Posted on 12/07/2005 10:53:13 PM PST by texasguitarslim

  MSNBC.com Most dangerous city? Ranking says Camden N.J. city's mayor blasts report; "We're doing so many nice things now"

The Associated Press Updated: 9:24 a.m. ET Nov. 21, 2005

CAMDEN, N.J. - For the second year in a row, this destitute city has been named the nation's most dangerous, according to a company's annual ranking based on crime statistics.

Last year, the distinction seemed to hurt city boosters' feelings more than it harmed revitalization efforts. This time, city leaders are offended by the ranking, calling it unfair.

"We're doing so many nice things now. It's unfortunate that somebody always wants to bad-mouth Camden," Mayor Gwendolyn Faison said.

The city took the top spot last year from Detroit, which remained No. 2 in the most dangerous city rankings, to be released Monday....

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: camden; crime; urban
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I probably would not have read this article if the headline didn't appear every time I logged on to my computer. They got me but now I'm going to get them.

It's too bad that Mayor Gwendolyn Faison thinks people are trying to "bad mouth Camden." I just want to bad mouth the writer. "The city's aquarium doubled in size and a new library and technology center were built. Tourism continues to increase along the river, home to the aquarium, an amphitheater, a minor-league baseball park and a retired battleship." Wow! And the police are using computers to solve crimes.

Why is the crime rate so high in Camden and the other cities listed? "By most measures, it is also among the nation's poorest." That must be it.

Here are some boring statistics courtesy of the 2000 Census. I will list each city from the AP's top and bottom ten then show some percentages of the population by race (not that race could have anything to do with high or low crime rates).

Camden (53.3% black – 16.8% white); Detroit (81.6% black – 12.3% white); St. Louis (51.2% black – 43.8% white); Flint (53.3% black – 41.4% white); Richmond (57.2% black – 38.3% white); Baltimore (64.3% black – 31.6% white); Atlanta (61.4% black – 33.2% white); New Orleans (67.3% black – 28.1% white); Gary (84% black – 11.9% white); and Birmingham (73.5% black – 24.1% white).

The safest cities listed are: Newton, Mass.; Clarkstown, N.Y.; Amherst, N.Y.; Mission Viejo, Calif.; Brick Township, N.J.; Troy, Mich.; Thousand Oaks, Calif.; Round Rock, Texas; Lake Forest, Calif.; and Cary, N.C. The respective percentage of population that is white is 88, 79.9, 89.3, 83.2, 93.8, 82.3, 85.1, 76.8, 76, and 82.2.

Again, I'm not saying that race is or is not a cause of crime but I think it is a crime when a news organization eliminates facts from a news story or does not look for the facts in the first place.

1 posted on 12/07/2005 10:53:13 PM PST by texasguitarslim
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To: texasguitarslim

The problem with Camden must be the 29.9% of the population from Mars.


2 posted on 12/07/2005 11:12:13 PM PST by msnimje (Everyday there is a new example of the Democrats "Culture of Dementia")
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To: texasguitarslim

I was born and raised in NJ.....and as soon as I was raised had the good sense to spend the next 30 years in Alaska and never go back. One thing I thought of when hearing this story was how even 20 years ago Camden NJ was referred to as the "Plywood covered storefront capital of America". What a dump, but then sop is the rest of the state.


3 posted on 12/07/2005 11:16:58 PM PST by commonasdirt (Reading DU so you won't hafta)
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To: texasguitarslim

You are pointing out statistical fact that will none the less not endear you to many here. Some folks would prefer not to talk about this.

Good luck


4 posted on 12/07/2005 11:18:24 PM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy

Personally, I like statistical facts. Even if the facts are not what I want to see, hear, observe. Facts are facts. Some folks live in a dream world, others prefer not to; and like to deal with reality.


5 posted on 12/07/2005 11:38:28 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: texasguitarslim

How dare we call them dangerous, they wrote a childrens book


6 posted on 12/07/2005 11:40:09 PM PST by GeronL (Leftism is the INSANE Cult of the Artificial)
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To: Cobra64

I'm with you but some here get really loud when this is pointed out and some folks get nervous

and ..well....you know the rest


7 posted on 12/07/2005 11:40:10 PM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy

Looked at other ways, you could say that "danger" is directly linked to poverty, educational standards, etc. Also, if you look closely at the list, you'll note that all those cities are declining "smoke stack" cities the white population fled in search of jobs or lifted their kids out of the blue collar life.


8 posted on 12/07/2005 11:46:20 PM PST by durasell
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To: durasell

If it's about poverty then why aren't the worst murder rates in Appalachia?


9 posted on 12/07/2005 11:55:36 PM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: texasguitarslim
not that race could have anything to do with high or low crime rates

African Americans commit more crimes per person than other groups. That is a fact.

Not only that, if you watch your local news and they show an arrest for a crime, ask for help in locating a criminal caught on tape, or show a court room conviction for a crime, more often than not, that person is an african american.

10 posted on 12/07/2005 11:56:26 PM PST by staytrue (MOONBAT conservatives are those who would rather lose to a liberal than support a moderate)
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To: durasell

Even in prosperous areas like Silicon Valley near Palo Alto, the most dangerous areas are the ones populated by african americans.


11 posted on 12/07/2005 11:59:21 PM PST by staytrue (MOONBAT conservatives are those who would rather lose to a liberal than support a moderate)
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To: wardaddy
If it's about poverty then why aren't the worst murder rates in Appalachia?

Maybe it is because no matter who you kill, you would be killing a relative ? Just kidding.

12 posted on 12/08/2005 12:01:15 AM PST by staytrue (MOONBAT conservatives are those who would rather lose to a liberal than support a moderate)
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To: wardaddy

It's not just about poverty, but also geography etc. Appalachia doesn't have the population density that urban areas have. However, I'm not an expert on Appalachia. But I have been in impoverished sections of rural communities that were just as dangerous as urban areas with alot of the same pathologies, i.e. drugs, out of wedlock births, and low educational standards.


13 posted on 12/08/2005 12:01:49 AM PST by durasell
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To: staytrue

Racist...your dwelling upon fact is very disturbing.

You must report to the re-education camp immediatley...


14 posted on 12/08/2005 12:05:03 AM PST by antaresequity (PUSH 1 FOR ENGLISH, PUSH 2 TO BE DEPORTED)
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To: staytrue

I can tell you that I feel much safer in Harlem than some trailer parks I've been in. Though that might be because I know Harlem pretty well (at least where to eat) and not very many trailer parks.


15 posted on 12/08/2005 12:07:22 AM PST by durasell
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To: durasell

actually...I blame a culture of serial illegitimacy and young men raised w/o a decent male lead

the rural South where I grew up was very black in the Delta for example but the danger rate was very low. i never feared black communities much down here until very recently, but i knew 30 years ago that parts of NYC or DC were hostile to crackers who talked funny....like me

i think Southern blacks who moved North en masse between the world wars and did not all find the dream they had hoped for got bogged down and picked up bad urban habits they had eschewed in a moral rural setting

Atlanta, Richmond and NOLA are not smokestack cities but those rustbelt cities already have crime reputations going back even to before the Great Society. And it all really picked up steam with the 60s race riots.

i think the poverty is a symptom of a broken culture as much as the murder rate is

and I don't have the answers aside from hoping they all miraculously adopt the nuclear family ideal but I'm not hopeful since serial illegitimacy seems to have spread over the entire American culture...and the West for that matter

Amen to those who pull themselves up and get out....I know it's not easy

folks with a strong sense of a patriarchial family can weather poverty and prevail and behave responsibly....my own ancestors did....and so did most black families too



16 posted on 12/08/2005 12:07:50 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: staytrue

I'm not Appalachian lol

I'm Mississippian and never married a cousin but I did have a few that were FINE.


17 posted on 12/08/2005 12:09:24 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: texasguitarslim

It is not race or poverty that causes crime. It is culture period...


18 posted on 12/08/2005 12:11:15 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: durasell

I agree that being poor in an urban crowded environment is worse. Maybe it's psychological.

I would prefer to be poor rurally no doubt....I think, though it could mean a lot of walking versus public trans.

But this conversation makes me remember first visiting Compton back in 87 or so. I expected serious ghetto like the South Bronx or Cabrini Green.

Instead, it looked like where I grew up. Lower middle class blue collar looking 1000-1500 sq foot faux prairie or stucco or craftsmen homes


19 posted on 12/08/2005 12:13:06 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy

A lot of black folks who moved North between the wars and even as late as the 50s/60s really got screwed over, by blacks and whites. If you talk to old black people up in Harlem they have nothing but disdain for the southern blacks who moved north (attitude similar to Okies in California).

p.s. -- I love southern cooking, Harlem is the last place to get the real thing in NYC.


20 posted on 12/08/2005 12:13:38 AM PST by durasell
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To: Sprite518; staytrue

Are you saying black culture is in trouble....at least the crime commiting part of it?


21 posted on 12/08/2005 12:14:02 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy

I agree with you, but not about Camden. As a resident of the Great State of New Jersey, I say that the reason is Camden happens to sit on a gateway to hell. It's true, look it up in Encyclopedia Brittanica under "Famous Portals to Hell - A to D"
The aquarium is nice, but you need a Fallujah-like convoy to get there or else you'll be hit with IEDs, insurgient ambushes, and carjackings. Oh yea, if you let your kids play with abandoned cars, it's the Police's fault that they die in the trunk.


22 posted on 12/08/2005 12:15:44 AM PST by Nipplemancer (Abolish the DEA !)
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To: wardaddy

The ghettos in L.A. are very deceptive. I try to visit the Watts Towers whenever I'm there and the place just gives me the willies. Looks like suburbia, but very dangerous.


23 posted on 12/08/2005 12:16:56 AM PST by durasell
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To: durasell
there has been a huge reverse migration...not as big as the original that was fueled largely by the automotive and related fields


Nashville has a sizable middle class black family group who have resettled here...a new group....not like the old aristocratic mulatto-creole class found in Memphis, NOLA, Mobile or Atlanta

I had dinner a few nights back with a young black professional couple. She was rural from Tifton GA area and he was Memphis born. They had been in Kali for over 10 years and he was a nicely paid Sony exec. They are fairly conservative. They both love it here. He volunteered he would never go back to Memphis. I asked why?...you guessed it...the crime. I asked him to get me a Vaio next time they're handing them out ...lol
24 posted on 12/08/2005 12:22:02 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy

You're dead on. I've encountered many black families -- city employees mostly -- who have bought land "down south" with plans to retire down there. They moved "up north" as children and want to return.


25 posted on 12/08/2005 12:26:16 AM PST by durasell
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To: durasell

i lived at 115 and morningside....on my stoop is where that off duty cop shot the Exeter scholarship kid from down on the flats who had come up near CU to mug someone for money to go to a movie while he was home for the weekend from Exeter

he and his brother made the mistake of mugging an off duty cop...it was big news around 1984...long ago now

i looked on googlearth the other day and all that has been gobbled up by CU....used to be brownstone grad student housing....not sure what it is now, but looks new

i used to go to that quaint Italian joint in east Harlem where all the bent noses and celebs went(?)


26 posted on 12/08/2005 12:27:26 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy
Yes absolutly..... It's a culture that effects all races, but Primarly blacks. I guess some people call it the hip hop culture. Just think about this for a moment....

When you talk to most young black students. What do they inspire to be? Most of the time you will hear a professional singer, athlete, or actor. This is an unrealistic goal considering in any of the professions only the top 1% of the top 1% actually make it big. Moreover, some black students that do try to do well in school are ridiculed for trying to be, "White"
27 posted on 12/08/2005 12:31:21 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: wardaddy

The restaurant: Raos? On 114?

Harlem is undergoing a revitalization. You can't touch a brownstone there for under a million. And a lot of the old mansions on Sugar Hill have been snapped up and completely renovated. The downside is that a lot of small businesses are getting pushed out by escalating rents.


28 posted on 12/08/2005 12:31:57 AM PST by durasell
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To: wardaddy

Atlanta I believe if I am not mistaken the largest black middle class in the country.


29 posted on 12/08/2005 12:34:52 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: wardaddy; durasell
i used to go to that quaint Italian joint in east Harlem where all the bent noses and celebs went(?)

Rao's. Overrated, impossible to get a table. There is a great Italian bakery on 116th street, however.

30 posted on 12/08/2005 12:35:37 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Sprite518

I know I will get flamed for saying it but I much more enjoy the company of black men and women who act like me.

Me when I'm behaving....not when I'm acting like the Credit Card commercial Visigoth.

But hiw can one say what I just said without sounding arrogant?

my wife and I comment frequently when we meet someone black and have instant rapport....as opposed to walking into a government building and getting the old black lady Alfie Woodard staredown...which no amount of chatting up will help....you know the main reason is communication rapport and commonality


31 posted on 12/08/2005 12:35:48 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: Sprite518

From what I understand, most of the black middle class are in the area south of Atlanta proper, not in the city itself.


32 posted on 12/08/2005 12:36:49 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Clemenza

whoops..sorry about the bent-nose comment gumbatta.

i expect inbred incoming..lol


33 posted on 12/08/2005 12:36:51 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: durasell

If poverty is directly linked to crime, I'd like to know why there wasn't so much more crime during the 1930s era of the Great Depression. Given the poverty of that decade, shouldn't the entire country have been swallowed up by crime?

As far as I'm concerned, it's the eternal welfare system that keeps people in poverty and prevents them from bettering themselves, as well as the ongoing victimization of poor Blacks and Whites that convinces them they are owed something for nothing. Add to that parents that just don't give a damn about their kids any more.


34 posted on 12/08/2005 12:37:33 AM PST by DakotaRed
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To: texasguitarslim

BTW: Of course, many Freepers believe that the only places with crime are where the "illegals" are. Not too many illegals in Gary, Camden, or St. Louis.


35 posted on 12/08/2005 12:37:51 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Clemenza

Best Italian bakeries are on Arthur Avenue -- though keep the cab waiting while you run inside to get the calzones.


36 posted on 12/08/2005 12:39:25 AM PST by durasell
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To: wardaddy
Well yeah I do not care what race they are if they think just like me.... I think most people tend to like to hang out with people that think the same way.

I have an issue with ALL government workers (with the exception of the military). I just get the impression that they are lazy.. Some talk up a good game, but most of them are all talk and no bite. Kind of like a Poodle.
37 posted on 12/08/2005 12:40:10 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: durasell

Wow...some folks were just beginning to nab brownstones in Inwood and around Columbia-Pres and also that high point around 150th and St Nicholas (?)


38 posted on 12/08/2005 12:41:11 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: wardaddy
LOL. No bent nose here, must be my paternal Polish genes.

To be honest with you, the only southerners I ever encoutered who resembled the inbred/peckerwood stereotype were the folks I used to see while traveling in North Florida. Most of the folks on the Mississippi Gulf Coast seemed OK genetically. Suprisingly large number of Paddy Whackers too.

39 posted on 12/08/2005 12:41:30 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Clemenza

Yes most of the middle class tend to be South and East of the city.


40 posted on 12/08/2005 12:41:34 AM PST by Sprite518
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To: Sprite518

I would not doubt that and like most folks who can they live North, West and East.


41 posted on 12/08/2005 12:41:58 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: DakotaRed

I've actually thought about the whole crime/drugs/out of wedlock births -- fall of civilization thing -- a lot. The only conclusion I've come to is very "squishy" and unquantifiable. That is, if a guy believes that tomorrow is gonna be even marginally better than today, then he's less likely to engage in criminal activity than a guy who believes that tomorrow is gonna be the same old, same old or a little worse.


42 posted on 12/08/2005 12:43:42 AM PST by durasell
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To: durasell
I lived on 189th and Belmont near Arthur when I went to Fordham. Best place in city for Soppressata is Biancardi's meats.

Happy to see, btw, that my dad's hometown of Newark in no longer in the top 10. I think the reason is that 1. Alot of thugs were killed in the crack wars 2. Those displaced by the demolition of the projects went to the Oranges or, more likely, moved down South. and 3. The fastest growing places in Newark population-wise are the Ironbound and North Newark. The Brazilians and Ecuadorians moving there are too busy working to become an "underclass."

43 posted on 12/08/2005 12:44:31 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Clemenza

I first hear that term bent-nose from some friends of made guys out at Long Beach LI....a long time ago.

Everytime I see the Sopranos I think about that.


44 posted on 12/08/2005 12:45:23 AM PST by wardaddy (bikini girls with machine guns)
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To: Clemenza

Want to hear something that will blow your socks off -- they built a marina in Port Elizabeth. There are pleasure boats docked in the arthur kill.


45 posted on 12/08/2005 12:47:28 AM PST by durasell
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To: msnimje
The problem with Camden must be the 29.9% of the population from Mars.

That 29.9% are largely descendents of the Puerto Ricans who came up in the 1940s and 1950s.

46 posted on 12/08/2005 12:48:31 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: texasguitarslim

Camden is directly across the river from Philly - - they may as well be twin cities like Minneapolis-St. Paul. I would bet there's a significant backwash in both directions.


47 posted on 12/08/2005 12:48:59 AM PST by Kenny Banya
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To: durasell
My Aunt and Uncle live right next door to Elizabeth. They talk about it like its pure hell, but I've never felt as unsafe there as I did when walking in Paterson or driving down Springfield Avenue from Newark into Irvington. Of course, it helps to speak Spanish, especially if you get away from the Port.

I believe the cities with the highest crime rates in New Jersey are Camden, Bridgeton, Irvington, East Orange, Orange, Plainfield, Paterson, and Newark.

48 posted on 12/08/2005 12:51:20 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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To: Clemenza

All those cities got hit hard by de-industrialization.


49 posted on 12/08/2005 12:53:51 AM PST by durasell
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To: durasell
Irvington, East Orange, and Orange were/are largely residential. It was blockbusting, the outflow of blacks from Newark following the riots, and the large scale white flight that resulted in the 1960s/70s that created the situation we had today.

As hard as it is for some folks to believe today, Irvington was considered a "step up" from Ironbound when my dad's aunts and uncles moved there in the 1950s/early 60s. You look at photos of East Orange and Irvington in the 1950s and it looks like Montclair today, thriving downtowns, nice houses, restaurants, etc.

50 posted on 12/08/2005 12:57:28 AM PST by Clemenza (Free minds, Free markets, Free society)
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