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Exclusive: Sen. Allen Withdraws 'Hate Crimes' Support (Shades of John Kerry?)
CNS ^ | 12/9/05

Posted on 12/09/2005 11:52:02 AM PST by areafiftyone

(CNSNews.com) - Republican U.S. Sen. George Allen will no longer support "hate crimes" legislation that includes "sexual orientation" as a protected status, even if the proposal is identical to a bill he voted for in 2004. The Virginia senator acknowledged Friday that such legislation could be used by federal courts to extend civil rights protections to homosexuals and to squelch free speech.

"Senator Allen is going to vote against adding 'sexual orientation' to federal 'hate crimes' laws," Mike Thomas, Allen's state director, told Cybercast News Service Friday.

Thomas said Allen has two serious concerns after monitoring how the federal courts have applied similar laws.

"The first is, he feels that those changes to hate crimes laws could have a chilling effect on First Amendment rights," Thomas said.

"Secondly - even though he doesn't feel that the legislation that was voted on in 2004, in and of itself, would elevate 'sexual orientation' to civil rights status - it's becoming clear that there are some courts that would use that as a building block toward civil rights status, which he is opposed to."

Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network, shares Allen's concerns.

"These are the warnings that the pro-family groups ... have been making for years to politicians like George Allen," Glover told Cybercast News Service. "We're just happy that George Allen has seen it, now that it's actually coming to fruition, before it's too late."

Both Glover and Thomas referenced an October 2004 incident in Philadelphia where a group of Christians were arrested and each faced 47 years in jail for publicly reading Bible verses condemning homosexual behavior during the city's "Outfest," a "gay pride" celebration.

"He's seen religious liberties being threatened in Philadelphia," Glover said, "because of a 'hate crimes' law there that includes 'sexual orientation.'"

There are other cases as well, Thomas said. "There are indications that the courts are willing to use 'hate crimes' statutes to go after free speech and that is of great concern to Senator Allen," he said.

Glover had previously criticized Allen for what pro-family advocates saw as a reversal on this issue. As Cybercast News Service previously reported that Allen wrote supporters during his 2000 Senate campaign, telling them that he would "take no action that would have the effect of elevating sexual orientation to civil rights status including, but not limited to, adding sexual orientation to Federal Hate Crimes legislation or any other similar legislation."

Allen denied changing his position when he voted in favor of a 2004 bill that included "sexual orientation" as a protected class, because he believed, at that time, that the law would not provide civil rights protections to homosexuals. Thomas said it is now the potential effect of the legislation, not the senator's position that has changed.


TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: 109th; allen2008; firstamendment; georgeallen; homosexualagenda; thoughtpolice
Now you can truly say I voted for it before I voted against it. LOL
1 posted on 12/09/2005 11:52:03 AM PST by areafiftyone
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To: areafiftyone
At least now he's voting the right way for the right reasons.

(Go George! Allen 2008)

2 posted on 12/09/2005 11:55:20 AM PST by carl in alaska (Blog blog bloggin' on heaven's door.....Kerry's speeches are just one big snore.)
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To: areafiftyone

There is truly room to change one's mind on things. And as we all know, politicians do it way too much for politican ends. I don't know about Allen yet and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he bears watching. I hope that he doesn't twist in the wind, because I like him. But I don't want to vote for a double-minded man.


3 posted on 12/09/2005 11:57:03 AM PST by twigs
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To: areafiftyone

I don't understand the whole "hate crime" thing.

If you do the crime who cares what your motivation was?

Punish the action not the thought.


4 posted on 12/09/2005 11:58:58 AM PST by Mikey_1962 (I grew up in a slum, when I got to college it had become a "ghetto".)
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To: Mikey_1962
If you do the crime who cares what your motivation was?

Punish the action not the thought.

I agree

5 posted on 12/09/2005 12:01:33 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: areafiftyone

Allen is wrong on other things too. He needs to get back in line as a conservative.


6 posted on 12/09/2005 12:01:35 PM PST by Cautor
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To: Mikey_1962

"Punish the action not the thought"

Libs will never allow this, free thought, no way.


7 posted on 12/09/2005 12:02:13 PM PST by conservativewasp (Liberals lie for sport and hate our country.)
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To: twigs

Seems like Allen is too worried about his election and scoring brownie points more than his convictions. I'm not saying he isn't voting the right way now but I don't want someone who farts whichever way the wind is blowing.


8 posted on 12/09/2005 12:03:40 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: carl in alaska

prep for 2008.

I caught george allen's stump speech recently on CSPAN. I'm afraid he was dull as ditchwater.


9 posted on 12/09/2005 12:06:41 PM PST by smonk
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To: Mikey_1962

you dare to use logic in the arena of politics, shame on you! ;)


10 posted on 12/09/2005 12:07:13 PM PST by conservativebabe
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To: areafiftyone

LOL! depends on who's down-wind.


11 posted on 12/09/2005 12:09:07 PM PST by conservativebabe
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To: areafiftyone

In order for conservatives to really, really accomplish some changes in this crazy PC world we find ourselves, lots of people are going to have to be changing their minds on issues such as this one.

There's nothing wrong with realizing the error of one's ways and acting accordingly to correct it.

I can understand how we got into this Politically Correct BS; we wanted to be kind and considerate. But now that we see where it has led us, it is going to take a lot of courage, such as exhibited by Sen. Allen.


12 posted on 12/09/2005 12:11:16 PM PST by i_dont_chat (Houston, TX)
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To: areafiftyone

I agree. I'll have to start paying more attention to what he says and his consistency. I'd rather someone be wrong than change a lot. EXCEPT: 1) when they have a genuine change of heart; and 2) when there's a huge uprising and they know they need to rethink things (like Pres. Bush did with Harriet Miers). Otherwise, I want someone who stands by his convictions. That way, I can vote for his convictions with confidence.


13 posted on 12/09/2005 12:12:05 PM PST by twigs
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To: conservativebabe

LOL


14 posted on 12/09/2005 12:12:12 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: Mikey_1962; areafiftyone
I don't understand the whole "hate crime" thing. If you do the crime who cares what your motivation was?

Allen stated reasoning on hate crimes legislation in general:

He understands the opposition to it, since it treats people differently, but he has been a "tough on crime" politician for a long time and says he'll vote for most anything that increases criminal penalties.

I won't pretend to claim Allen is above political calculation, and he's not my #1 choice in 2008, but he does seem to have a set of principles that he tries to apply to each piece of legislation as it arises. If you realize you're wrong about something and change your position, one or two things like that doesn't make someone a flip-flopper.

15 posted on 12/09/2005 12:12:41 PM PST by JohnnyZ (Veterans' Day. Enough said.)
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To: Cautor

Care to explain?


16 posted on 12/09/2005 12:13:09 PM PST by shekkian
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To: areafiftyone
Seems like Allen is too worried about his election and scoring brownie points more than his convictions.

Yeah yeah, he's not a radical pro-gay pro-abort gun-grabber like your hero Rudy, spare us the snide comments.

17 posted on 12/09/2005 12:14:35 PM PST by JohnnyZ (Veterans' Day. Enough said.)
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To: JohnnyZ
Yeah yeah, he's not a radical pro-gay pro-abort gun-grabber like your hero Rudy, spare us the snide comments.

Who died and made you moderator? For you info I never mentioned Rudy

18 posted on 12/09/2005 12:18:58 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: smonk

I haven't heard him that much, but from what I've heard he's more of a smooth, relaxed speaker and not as energized as GWB. But he seems to have a good memory for the status of all the key political issues and legislation and he answers questions in calm, understandable language. I think he'd make a good contrast to the stridency, anger, and barely-contained radicalism of Hillary. Allen would beat Hillary like a copper kettle drum, 53-46 in the popular vote...not even close.


19 posted on 12/09/2005 12:20:37 PM PST by carl in alaska (Blog blog bloggin' on heaven's door.....Kerry's speeches are just one big snore.)
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To: Mikey_1962
If you do the crime who cares what your motivation was?

Well, the prosecutor, for one. Establishing motive is important, but it should be an element of the crime itself, not a separate charge tacked on.

A "hate" motivation can be used to help secure a conviction, and could be an element of sentenicng (premeditation, remorse, etc.) -- there doesn't need to be a separate charge for the perp's motivation to be used against him.

20 posted on 12/09/2005 12:23:24 PM PST by kevkrom ("Zero-sum games are transactions mostly initiated by thieves and governments." - Walter Williams)
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To: areafiftyone

It looks to me like he just became more aware of the true meaning and ramifications of the bill. He was then willing to change his vote to meet reality. Honestly, I do not think this is the same thing as Kerry at all. He voted for it when he viewed it as limited (he was lied to by the bill's proponents). It's too bad he fell for this legal loophole building block bill in the first place, but at least he has been willing to see the truth and change his vote accordingly. Good for him.


21 posted on 12/09/2005 12:24:53 PM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at His footstool; He is holy. Ps 99:5)
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To: Mikey_1962
I don't understand the whole "hate crime" thing. If you do the crime who cares what your motivation was? Punish the action not the thought.<

Bingo! This "hate crime" concept is foolish. I guess it is something to keep politicians and lawyers something to do.... pathetic.

22 posted on 12/09/2005 12:26:12 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: Mikey_1962
It's about legal premise. As Allen figured out, this is what it is really about: "The first is, he feels that those changes to hate crimes laws could have a chilling effect on First Amendment rights," Thomas said. "Secondly - even though he doesn't feel that the legislation that was voted on in 2004, in and of itself, would elevate 'sexual orientation' to civil rights status - it's becoming clear that there are some courts that would use that as a building block toward civil rights status, which he is opposed to."

He innocently thought the proponents were being honest, that the bill would simply beef up existing criminal law. Now, I think he shouldn't have voted to make it more of a crime to murder a homosexual but not, say, a child, a grandmother, etc... (All murder is hate. It sure isn't love.) So I disagree with his first premise. But at least when that premise proved to be false, he was willing to change his vote. That's good.

23 posted on 12/09/2005 12:31:39 PM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at His footstool; He is holy. Ps 99:5)
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To: twigs
They tend to coo and mouth comforting, reassuring words - before you pull the lever for them. But, once in Washington...
24 posted on 12/09/2005 12:37:43 PM PST by aligncare (Wasted my time...got my Journalism degree)
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To: areafiftyone
Punish the action not the thought.

The way I always figured it is the general range of punishment is set by the action. The exact amount of punishment - within the law's range - should be set by a fair and impartial judge, who gets to judge just how malicious the perp's intent was. Hence the separate sentencing round in a trial.

Basically, by creating "hate-crime" laws, we take away this power away from the judge. Ironically, this is one of the powers the judiciary is supposed to have!

25 posted on 12/09/2005 12:39:02 PM PST by Yossarian (The media is now simply running a 24/7 soap opera with Dubya cast as the arch villain.)
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To: areafiftyone
Whatever you think, Allen was consistent in his belief that the outcome of the law would not provide civil rights protections to homos. That's an honest mistake, and he has corrected it in time before any harm was done.

President Bush rightfully reversed himself on a 2000 campaign pledge to reduce atmospheric CO2 reduction, with the explanation that he had come to realize that carbon dioxide was not a pollutant. Like Allen, his original stance was wrong, but he was receptive to the actual truth of the situation.

Neither one of these guys is a walking encyclopedia, they rely on people like you and me to keep them honest. That is the Republic at its finest.

26 posted on 12/09/2005 12:44:06 PM PST by StAnDeliver
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past; carl in alaska; i_dont_chat

Glad to see other FReepers understand.


27 posted on 12/09/2005 12:49:17 PM PST by StAnDeliver
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To: areafiftyone
"Actually it was NOT a HOMOSEXUAL EVENT! It was a Journalist Event: Mr. Giuliani swept onstage in a huge, blond, bouffant wig and a bosomy gown for the finale of the "Inner Circle" dinner, a $400-a-plate, black-tie affair where the city's journalists satirize city, state and national politics." -- areafiftyone

Glad I don't have to put up with that sort of behavior from Sen. Allen.

28 posted on 12/09/2005 12:53:22 PM PST by StAnDeliver
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To: areafiftyone
"Actually it was NOT a HOMOSEXUAL EVENT! It was a Journalist Event: Mr. Giuliani swept onstage in a huge, blond, bouffant wig and a bosomy gown for the finale of the "Inner Circle" dinner, a $400-a-plate, black-tie affair where the city's journalists satirize city, state and national politics." -- areafiftyone

Glad I don't have to put up with that sort of behavior from Sen. Allen.

29 posted on 12/09/2005 12:53:22 PM PST by StAnDeliver
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To: StAnDeliver
They rely on people like you and me to keep them honest. That is the Republic at its finest.

Well I can't argue with you on that. Personally I don't have anything against Allen and if he is the Republican nominee I will happily vote for him.

30 posted on 12/09/2005 12:56:44 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: areafiftyone

Any hate crimes legislation violates a number of Constitutional amendments as well as resembles the thought crimes that existed in Orwell's Oceania and many communist states. If it equates to anything thought equates to speech and is protected under the 1st Amendment. Any crime or tort committed during the speech should be addressed through the appropriate channels. How many extra death penalties or LWOP should James Byrd's murderers have been sentenced to?


31 posted on 12/09/2005 12:56:56 PM PST by jimfree (Freep and ye shall find.)
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To: Cautor

Waiting for his apology for visiting with the ditch witch and suggesting that the President ought to have met with her.....again.


32 posted on 12/09/2005 12:58:28 PM PST by OldFriend (The Dems enABLEd DANGER and 3,000 Americans died.)
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To: StAnDeliver

Actually that was ON ANOTHER POST FROM YESTERDAY! That was in answer to ZULU's Post saying Rudy dressed like that for a homosexual event when it wasn't it was a journalistic event.


33 posted on 12/09/2005 12:59:01 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: smonk

LOL..I watched Warner on CSPIN. Talk about boring, boring, boring, mindless blather.


34 posted on 12/09/2005 12:59:18 PM PST by OldFriend (The Dems enABLEd DANGER and 3,000 Americans died.)
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To: areafiftyone
I still remember when he was asked about why he inserted the gay language stuff into the bill.

He had this deer caught in the headlights look like he was stunned.

35 posted on 12/09/2005 12:59:37 PM PST by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: OldFriend

I think Warner is going to be the Democrat's nominee! From what I have been reading they really like him. Even the ultra left!


36 posted on 12/09/2005 1:00:37 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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To: areafiftyone

Warner is less articulate than kerry. This is going to be fun!


37 posted on 12/09/2005 1:05:41 PM PST by OldFriend (The Dems enABLEd DANGER and 3,000 Americans died.)
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To: OldFriend
Warner is less articulate than kerry

Wow that is pretty pathetic! Another favorite is Clark - but he can easily be beaten.

38 posted on 12/09/2005 1:06:38 PM PST by areafiftyone (Politicians Are Like Diapers, Both Need To Be Changed Often And For The Same Reason!)
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VS.

39 posted on 12/09/2005 1:26:57 PM PST by StAnDeliver
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To: areafiftyone

Uh-huh.

So he's become "enlightened" on the issue?

Amazing how this occurs on eve of his intention to run for President.

Senator Allen, how about becoming "enlightened" about Cindy Sheehan, the Warner resolution and the McCain amendment?

Forget it. It's rapidly becoming clear to me this man thinks by polls. Most politicians do, but some are like the President and firmly believe and stand by positions and try to sway others to their beliefs. Others let polls dictate everything they will support.


40 posted on 12/09/2005 3:51:49 PM PST by Soul Seeker (Mr. President: It is now time to turn over the money changers' tables.)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
It looks to me like he just became more aware of the true meaning and ramifications of the bill. He was then willing to change his vote to meet reality. Honestly, I do not think this is the same thing as Kerry at all. He voted for it when he viewed it as limited (he was lied to by the bill's proponents). It's too bad he fell for this legal loophole building block bill in the first place, but at least he has been willing to see the truth and change his vote accordingly. Good for him.

I'm with you. This is very good news. Whatever the reason -- initial bad consultant advice, bad judgment or some other reason, I'm glad he's come around. I like George Allen and was hoping to be able to support him. His former position on this bill had me deeply troubled. I was looking at Senator Brownback for the primary. I'm happily back in the Allen 2008 camp!

41 posted on 12/09/2005 3:59:43 PM PST by Ligeia (Merry Christmas, everyone!)
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To: Corin Stormhands
George Allen ping!

One of the highlights of Senator Allen's Asia trip was the
opportunity to meet and thank some of our American troops
stationed in Pakistan on November 20th. "Our men and women
deployed there are greatly appreciated by earthquake
ravaged Pakistanis," Allen said.

Senator George Allen

42 posted on 12/09/2005 4:06:11 PM PST by Ligeia (Merry Christmas, everyone!)
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To: Ligeia

I still really like Brownback, but I need to see the primary debate before I decide anything.


43 posted on 12/09/2005 4:15:41 PM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at His footstool; He is holy. Ps 99:5)
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To: areafiftyone; EDINVA; iceskater; xyz123; Mudboy Slim; Corin Stormhands; jla; Flora McDonald; ...
Now you can truly say I voted for it before I voted against it. LOL

ha ha ha very funny...

But here's the thing you and a whole passel of other FReepers need to know and understand about George Allen. He loves the whole process of the debate. He will work on an issue and think it through. If he then later sees that he was wrong, he'll change/adjust his position.

That's going to get him in ~trouble~ with FReepers who think everything lives and dies by the "conservative" playbook. George Allen isn't going to fit that mold.

What baffles me the most is that FReepers who think they're influential want their politicians to change their positions.

And when the politicians actually do see things their way, that's not good enough.

It boggles the mind.

44 posted on 05/14/2006 7:14:27 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Yep. Ain't politics fun?


45 posted on 05/15/2006 3:00:41 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: Corin Stormhands

See the new NJ insider poll?


46 posted on 05/15/2006 7:47:55 PM PDT by SDGOP
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