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Is happiness a banned gun?
CBC (Canada) ^ | Dec 8, 2005 | John Gray

Posted on 12/09/2005 3:24:28 PM PST by proud_yank

After a horrendous summer in Toronto, where more than three dozen people were shot to death on the streets, it was inevitable that gun control and gang violence would figure prominently in the current election campaign.

Indeed, even before the campaign began, Prime Minister Paul Martin promised: "We're going to take handguns out of our communities."

Now, with the election campaign in its second week, the prime minister has returned to the hard streets of the country's largest city and promised an outright ban on handguns "to make our communities safer."

Nobody would disagree with the hope. But handguns and gang violence in a modern big city may prove to be more complex than any other problem confronting Canada's political leaders in this election campaign.

However chaotic the streets of Toronto may have seemed last summer, the rate of gun homicide this year in the city is actually fractionally lower than it was in 1991.

And Toronto's murder rate per capita this year is lower than the rate for Winnipeg, Edmonton, Vancouver and Calgary.

But the nature of firearm violence has changed dramatically since the first of the stronger gun-control laws of the modern era was passed in 1991 and then strengthened four years later. There has been a 68 per cent decline in homicides involving rifles and shotguns. By contrast, the rate of murder by handguns has dropped by a more modest 30 per cent.

In theory, handguns have been controlled through registration since the 1930s and effectively illegal for all but target shooters since 1991.

The harsh reality is that people inclined to use handguns are not concerned much by what the law says. Virtually all the handguns on the streets of Canadian cities have been stolen from legal collections in Canada or smuggled from the United States.

The estimate of U.S. authorities is that 280 million people in the United States own 230 million guns. Every year, 500,000 of those are stolen and disappear into the underworld.

How many of those stolen American guns make their way into Canada, nobody knows. Canada Customs seizes about 1,500 smuggled guns every year, but that gives no indication of the real number. Only about three per cent of the traffic across the Canada-U.S. border is inspected, so the guns they miss may number 50,000 or many, many more.

It is the appearance of armed gangs using illegal handguns on the streets of Toronto and other large cities that has created the greatest uncertainty about public safety. The Coalition for Gun Control cites the case of a Toronto man who unknowingly tried to cross the border with 23 high-powered handguns that someone had hidden in the trunk of his car. The guns were destined for a Toronto gang.

The reality is that despite the newspaper headlines and concern of politicians, there has not been a massive rise in violent crime. Over the past 30 years, the level of homicides has declined dramatically, so it is hard to see what difference the current election campaign will make.


TOPICS: Canada; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; bedwetter; bradywatch; canada; gungrab; guns; handgunban; happiness
How many of those stolen American guns make their way into Canada, nobody knows. Canada Customs seizes about 1,500 smuggled guns every year, but that gives no indication of the real number. Only about three per cent of the traffic across the Canada-U.S. border is inspected, so the guns they miss may number 50,000 or many, many more.

Where they come up with these #'s is beyond me??? PM Martin used to use his line 'Up to 50% of guns used in crime could have come from the US', until it was admitted that the way that figure was calculated was not 'the most accurate'. All a statement like that tells me is somewhere between Zero and 50 %, probably closer to zero.

Take for example:

"The Canada Border Services Agency says it has intercepted 318 guns so far in 2005, below the more than 1,000 seized guns that border guards have averaged annually during the past five years, and far fewer than the 1,500 seized annually in the 1990s.

And while Toronto Police Service Chief Bill Blair was widely quoted last week as saying his officers have seized more than 2,000 guns so far in 2005, civilians in his statistics department say the chief inadvertently "misspoke." Their official tally is only 1,151, consistent with the pace of seizures in recent years.


Source: Globe and Mail, 'Statistics belie flood of guns from U.S.', August 15, 2005

The marijuana industry in BC alone is ~$6-7 Billion annually, and much of it is smuggled into the US. With that much trafficing, I bet that more illegal guns enter the US from Canada than visa-versa. Is that a fair statement? Would anyone disagree with me?

1 posted on 12/09/2005 3:24:29 PM PST by proud_yank
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To: proud_yank

Criminals making weed-gun exchanges? Doesn't seem all that farfetched. Even if they aren't straight barter deals, I would certainly imagine that the profits made from one exchange fuel the others.


2 posted on 12/09/2005 3:29:28 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Gordongekko909

I would NEVER trade even my worst gun for weed.....


3 posted on 12/09/2005 3:30:39 PM PST by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer
I would NEVER trade even my worst gun for weed.....

That's because you're not a dope dealer.

A Raven .25 for a hundred pounds of BC Gold? Homey do that deal now.

4 posted on 12/09/2005 3:33:11 PM PST by Oberon (As a matter of fact I DO want fries with that.)
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To: Oberon

Well, in that case, I might have an old Ortgies 32 for someone up in the big Canada....


5 posted on 12/09/2005 3:34:30 PM PST by Gaffer
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To: Gordongekko909; Gaffer; All
Criminals making weed-gun exchanges?

I did not mean trading, I meant the larger pushers are generally armed when they come into the US from Canada.

If I had a legit job that required me to carry around $10,000 cash, I would have my CCW and carry a pistol. If I were illegally moving $10,000 worth of drugs to dealers, I would certainly be armed. Once they cross the border, just sell your pistol too for a hundred dollars. Why chance taking it back??

That is the point I was trying to make.
6 posted on 12/09/2005 3:36:59 PM PST by proud_yank (Experience Tolerance: tell a liberal you own guns and drive an SUV!)
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To: proud_yank

Oh, yeah. Any drug dealer that isn't packing is either A) a hippy with a clientele too stoned to try to hurt him, B) about to die, or C) Both.


7 posted on 12/09/2005 3:41:44 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: Gaffer

Me either....


8 posted on 12/09/2005 3:43:18 PM PST by GW and Twins Pawpaw (Sheepdog for Five [My grandkids are way more important than any lefty's feelings!])
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To: proud_yank

The estimate of U.S. authorities is that 280 million people in the United States own 230 million guns.

Must be some of that "time share" Co-Ownership stuff liberals think up.

Dang, does this mean I own enough guns for 50 people?
I better buy more ammo.


9 posted on 12/09/2005 3:54:50 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Gordongekko909

I am rather moderate on the whole 'legalize pot' issue, but I do find it really, really tough to believe that the larger growers & dealers are not armed when moving that much $$ in illegal substance.


10 posted on 12/09/2005 3:55:37 PM PST by proud_yank (Experience Tolerance: tell a liberal you own guns and drive an SUV!)
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To: tet68

Anyway, Lennon said it best, "Happiness is a WARM gun..."


11 posted on 12/09/2005 3:55:57 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

All I know is that one can never have too many guns. I'm asking Mom and Dad for another shotgun for Christmas. I had to try anyways!


12 posted on 12/09/2005 3:57:37 PM PST by proud_yank (Experience Tolerance: tell a liberal you own guns and drive an SUV!)
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To: Oberon
BC Gold??

Now I have been around the block a few times in my day, but when I seen this, assuming BC is British Columbia, Canada, I had to chuckle a bit. I imagine this is some potent herb....

13 posted on 12/09/2005 4:00:44 PM PST by sit-rep (If you acquire, hit it again to verify...)
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To: proud_yank

My son just brought me home a 5 shot Derringer for Christmas.


14 posted on 12/09/2005 4:52:27 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: proud_yank

When you are already a smuggler ( dope ) it is no big deal to toss in some iron ( weapons ) for resale over the border.


15 posted on 12/09/2005 5:04:56 PM PST by backhoe
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To: proud_yank

"We're going to take handguns out of our communities."


----Too many of our citizens are shooting our robbers, rapists and killers and we won't stand for that! These people have rights too that are being violated when they are shot! ( just kiddin )


16 posted on 12/09/2005 5:45:38 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man)
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To: sit-rep
Grass may be British Columbia's largest export in terms of dollars. In about thirty seconds worth of Google search, I turned up this...

BC Bud Depot

Apparently you can order your British Columbian weed seeds on the internet, using your Visa or MasterCard. I'll pass, thanks...but there's no denying it's a big business.

17 posted on 12/09/2005 7:14:32 PM PST by Oberon (As a matter of fact I DO want fries with that.)
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To: Oberon
Well, I tell ya...I'll pass on the BC seeds. If I get the urge, I'll just settle with the trusty ol' indica strain from the Santa Cruz area. (grin)
18 posted on 12/09/2005 7:27:46 PM PST by sit-rep (If you acquire, hit it again to verify...)
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To: Oberon; sit-rep
Grass may be British Columbia's largest export in terms of dollars. In about thirty seconds worth of Google search, I turned up this...

It is a huge industry. Google: Marc Emery. He was a huge supplier of seeds who was extradited to the US for selling seeds into America. He was running a six-figure/yr. business in the US alone.
19 posted on 12/09/2005 7:32:47 PM PST by proud_yank (Experience Tolerance: tell a liberal you own guns and drive an SUV!)
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To: proud_yank
The estimate of U.S. authorities is that 280 million people in the United States own 230 million guns"

Some sort of timeshare or fractional ownership plan or something? 230MM into 280MM?

20 posted on 12/09/2005 7:42:09 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: muir_redwoods

I don't know. I guess the old addage 'figures don't lie, but all liars figure' is somewhat applicable!


21 posted on 12/09/2005 8:12:35 PM PST by proud_yank (Experience Tolerance: tell a liberal you own guns and drive an SUV!)
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To: pbrown
My son just brought me home a 5 shot Derringer for Christmas.

A five-shot derringer? Do you mean a mini-revolver? I thought a derringer was a fixed-barrel firearm, and five barrels would be a bit much. Not totally impossible, but highly unusual.

22 posted on 12/09/2005 8:38:43 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
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To: supercat
He hasn't wrapped it yet, so I'm going through the paperwork. Yep....mini-revolver. It is so tiny, I can palm it in my hand.

I test fired it last night. It's about 2and a half to 3 inches in length. We won't talk accuracy...this one is for up-close and personal protection.

Well, I see they have issued an ammunition advisery with it. Double-discharge is something I'll have to check out before firing it again.

I like it.

23 posted on 12/10/2005 9:41:14 AM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown
I test fired it last night. It's about 2and a half to 3 inches in length. We won't talk accuracy...this one is for up-close and personal protection.

How's the hammer cocking force on it? My understanding is that many derringers require sufficient cocking force that single-handed operation is difficult. I wouldn't see why the mini-revolver would be any different in that regard.

One thing I've thought might be interesting would be a two-barrel derringer with three mainsprings and three cocking mechanisms. One (called "A") would be tied directly to the hammer, but the other two ("B" and "C") would be capable of driving it as well.

Prior to use, springs B and C would be cocked, while spring A and the hammer would be decocked. Pulling back on the hammer all the way would cock it and connect spring B. Pulling the trigger would then cause both springs A and B to drive the hammer. At that point, spring B would disconnect; recocking would connect spring C, and pulling the trigger would cause the hammer to be driven with springs A and C.

In this way, the force required to cock the hammer in a 'crunch' situation would be minimized (spring "A" tension would be set so as to avoid having the hammer get cocked accidentally; springs "B" and "C" would be responsible for most of the firing energy). The mechanism would be a little complicated, but not necessarily much worse than a double shotgun.

24 posted on 12/10/2005 2:00:47 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
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To: supercat
It does take a bit of force to pull the hammer back. My .38 is what I'm used too and it's very smooth compared with the mini. Now that I know what to expect from it, pulling it back won't be a hangup. I'll know what to expect.

My son has huge hands and his thumb web got pinched. Not a MAN'S pistol at all. I snickered at him, he won't make that mistake again.

My dream pistol is a double-barrel derringer. I'd ask for that one, but, we have a wedding anniversary coming up in January. :-)

What surprised me the most was the loudness of the shot. I was thinking a muffled ping, and I heard a loud bang.

This is what it looks like. My son has my digital camera. When he gets here I'll take a shot of it and post it.

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

25 posted on 12/10/2005 3:02:19 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: supercat
Here it is. That's my sons hand. I can't make it a smaller picture.

BTW, the Oreo no longer exists. :-)

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

26 posted on 12/10/2005 4:00:32 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown

I've seen the mini-revolvers, though I've never handled one. Is it possible to cock the hammer one-handed? If not, I'd question the usefulness of having five shots. But maybe that's just me.


27 posted on 12/10/2005 5:06:15 PM PST by supercat (Sony delinda est.)
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To: supercat
Is it possible to cock the hammer one-handed?

Oh yes. It's the hardest hammer I've pulled back. But easily done.

28 posted on 12/10/2005 9:17:57 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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