Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Kosovo independence would fuel separatism - Serbia
Reuters ^ | Dec 5, 2005 | Zoran Radosavljevic

Posted on 12/12/2005 4:36:07 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

LJUBLJANA (Reuters) - Independence for Serbia's breakaway province of Kosovo would open up a Pandora's box of separatism and lead to new ethnic conflicts in Europe, the foreign minister of Serbia-Montenegro said on Monday.

Kosovo has been a U.N. protectorate since 1999, when 78 days of NATO bombing drove out Serb forces accused of atrocities against civilians while fighting an ethnic Albanian insurgency.

Last month, U.N. envoy Martti Ahtisaari started shuttle diplomacy aimed at reconciling two opposing visions -- the Albanian majority's demands for independence on the basis of self-determination, and Serbia's insistence on sovereignty.

Speaking on the sidelines of an OSCE ministerial meeting in the Slovenian capital Ljubljana, Vuk Draskovic said that giving Kosovo independence could jeopardise stability in the Balkans.

Breaking up Serbia and changing its borders would breach international law, bolster the hopes of separatists elsewhere and fuel new wars.

"If the U.N. charter is crushed, it will become a cancer that spreads quickly," Draskovic said.

"What will then happen with the Turkish part of Cyprus, with the Albanians in Macedonia? Would Bosnia be able to survive? What about the Basques, Northern Ireland, Ossetia?".

Draskovic repeated that Serbia's best offer was broad autonomy that fell short of formal independence.

"Kosovo can have independent representation internationally, everywhere except at the United Nations and other organisations that stand for state sovereignty," he said.

"Serbia does not want to rule the Albanian majority in Kosovo. But majority rule cannot include intimidation and murder and destruction of churches."

SPORADIC VIOLENCE

Ethnic Albanians' impatience for independence has fuelled sporadic violence against minority Serbs. The 100,000 who stayed on in the province after about as many fled in 1999 say they face constant intimidation. Nineteen people died in March 2004 in riots that took Kosovo's 17,000 peacekeepers by surprise.

The talks on Kosovo's status are expected to wrap up by late 2006. Diplomats warn more violence should be expected in the province if negotiations stall, or a solution is seen as unfair.

Almost 70 percent of the province's 2 million people are unemployed and blame Kosovo's legal limbo for the lack of investment that would create jobs.

Draskovic said the international community should not grant Kosovo independence in order to placate extremists.

"(They) should say no to the ultimatums of Albanian extremists, that the remaining Serbs and the international military and police will be targets of terror if Kosovo is not given the status of an independent state," he said.

"Crime as the foundation of a state, a state as the reward for crime -- such an ultimatum is a blow to the moral and legal foundations of Europe."


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antiamericans; appeasement; balkans; clintonsfraud; islamofascist; jihad; kla; kosovo; serbia; sorosfluffers; sossetia; traitors; wrongplace; wrongside; wrongtime; wrongwar

1 posted on 12/12/2005 4:36:07 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe

On the other hand, California might just believe this is its big chance...


2 posted on 12/12/2005 5:06:16 PM PST by norton
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe
Last month, U.N. envoy Martti Ahtisaari started shuttle diplomacy aimed at reconciling two opposing visions -- the Albanian majority's demands for independence on the basis of self-determination, and Serbia's insistence on sovereignty.

Why does the UN need to "reconcile" this? It's Serbia's territory. Does the UN intend to give diplomatic status to every separatist group throughout the world?

3 posted on 12/12/2005 6:47:55 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe
Independence for Kosovo would open up a Pandora's box of separatism and lead to new ethnic conflicts in Europe, the foreign minister of Serbia-Montenegro said on Monday

A little late, Mr. Foreign Minister. There were plenty of ethnic conflicts in the 1990s as the various entities of the former Yugoslavia were tripping all over each other getting away from Belgrade: first Slovenia, then Croatia & Bosnia & Macedonia & Kosovo. Next year Montenegro is holding a referendum on breaking away and if the Serb nationalists keep it up in their remaining province of Vojvodina, the ethnic-Hungarian minority there will be next to go.

4 posted on 12/12/2005 6:49:03 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: inquest

The Russians are planning to use the Kosovo precedent for as an excuse for their support for separatists in Georgia and Moldova, and tomorrow in Ukraine.


5 posted on 12/12/2005 6:53:56 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
A little late, Mr. Foreign Minister. There were plenty of ethnic conflicts in the 1990s

So that's a reason to fuel even more of them?

6 posted on 12/12/2005 6:56:29 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: inquest
Russia says UN should continue monitoring Kosovo

Russia has UN "peacekeepers" propping up narco-terrorist separatists in Georgia.

7 posted on 12/12/2005 6:57:37 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: inquest
Well, inquest, we were a separatist group ourselves, once. Senator Jesse Helms addressed the Kosovo issue in a speech to the United Nations:

We are endowed with those "inalienable rights," as Thomas Jefferson proclaimed in our Declaration of Independence, not by kings or despots, but by our Creator. The sovereignty of nations must be respected. But nations derive their sovereignty -- their legitimacy -- from the consent of the governed. Thus, it follows, that nations can lose their legitimacy when they rule without the consent of the governed; they deservedly discard their sovereignty by brutally oppressing their people. Slobodan Milosevic cannot claim sovereignty over Kosovo when he has murdered Kosovars and piled their bodies into mass graves. Neither can Fidel Castro claim that it is his sovereign right to oppress his people. Nor can Saddam Hussein defend his oppression of the Iraqi people by hiding behind phony claims of sovereignty. And when the oppressed peoples of the world cry out for help, the free peoples of the world have a fundamental right to respond.

8 posted on 12/12/2005 7:07:04 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
I don't suppose anyone's broken the news to you yet, but Milosevic is long gone.
9 posted on 12/12/2005 7:14:07 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: inquest
Milosevic is long gone

Unfortunately, the main political embodiment of Milosevic-style policies, the Serb Radical Party, is still the largest party in Serbia's parliament. Based on the endemic theme of extremist nationalism in Serbian politics and their failure to police up war criminals Karadzic & Mladic, the United States has already ruled out any return of Kosovo to its pre-1999 status under Serbia.

Under Secretary of State Nicholas Burns, Condi's second man down, laid out the U.S. position on Kosovo in his testimony to Congress a few months ago:

In order to preserve our role as facilitators of a negotiated solution, the United States and our partners in the Contact Group [USA, UK, France, Italy, Germany, Russia] have not advocated any specific outcome for status talks, but we have identified some basic principles that should guide a settlement of Kosovo's final status. We ruled out a return to the situation before March 1999 and made clear that Kosovo's final status must enhance regional stability and contribute to the Euro-Atlantic integration of the Balkans.

Accordingly, Kosovo's final status must:

-- Be based on multi-ethnicity with full respect for human rights including the right of all refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in safety;

-- Offer effective constitutional guarantees to ensure the protection of minorities;

-- Include specific safeguards for the protection of cultural and religious heritage; and

-- Promote effective mechanisms for fighting organized crime and terrorism. Additionally, the Contact Group told the parties that we believe that Kosovo's final status must:

-- Not be decided by any party unilaterally or result from the use of force;

-- Not change the boundaries of the current territory of Kosovo, either through partition or through a new union of Kosovo with any country or part of any country after the resolution of Kosovo's status;

-- Fully respect the territorial integrity of all other states in the region;

-- Ensure that Kosovo continues to develop in a sustainable way both politically and economically; and

-- Ensure that Kosovo does not pose a military or security threat to its neighbors.


10 posted on 12/12/2005 7:48:01 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf

Milosevic is not in power anymore so what is Albanian excuse for killing, torturing and ethnically cleansing non-Albanians now? There was no Milosevic 1941, 1915 or during those long black years of muslim terror and occupation, but that did not prevent Albanian muslim to kill, steel and destroy – did not it?

Kosovo and Metohija is the full name of Serbian province Albanians are trying to steel. Metohija is word used to describe property belonging to the Church. Milosevic left so what prevents your tribe from returning to Serbian Orthodox Church its rightful property? Milosevic is not in power, so why you keep killing old men and women, destroying churches and monasteries and desecrating graveyards?

When Albs got independence, like their Chechen cousins, they were not able to live in peace. Instead they start killing and expelling minorities and exporting Islam revolution. If you are really ancestors of ancient Illyrians and European people why don’t you show that you can respect lives and property of Serbs, Macedonians, Turks, Roma…?

Albanian terror and crimes, oppression of non-Albanians and mass murder rob you of any right on Kosovo and Metohija. Your misdeeds clearly demonstrate that Albanians are stranger to the Kosmet. Your tribe in unable to treat non-Albanians like human beings- with dignity and respect for their individual right. One day - Inshallah - Serbs will take back what was stolen from them, until that enjoy.


11 posted on 12/12/2005 8:26:37 PM PST by zagor-te-nej (USS - United States of Serbia)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe
NATO bombing drove out Serb forces accused of atrocities against civilians while fighting an ethnic Albanian insurgency.

Hmmm, where have we heard these terms before?

Let's use the MSM translation manual...

"insurgents": Muslims slaughtering innocents as they try to take territory they claim as their own, rightly or wrongly...
"atrocities": when Christians defend themselves, or put panties on the heads of Muslims...
"NATO bombing": bombing ordered by a Democrat President who doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions.

Now we get: Clinton bombed Christian forces trying to turn back Muslims from taking over their homes and gang-raping and beheading their children.

Much closer to the truth than anything you'll read in the MSM.

12 posted on 12/12/2005 8:45:58 PM PST by Teacher317
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe

Serbia is projecting. Kosovo, a place that has nothing in common with Serbia, except mutual loathing, is a sui generis trend. Serbia really sucks at PR.


13 posted on 12/12/2005 8:49:14 PM PST by Torie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zagor-te-nej
zagor, unfortunately for you, the aggressors and kings of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans were not the Albanians nor the Croats nor the Bosnians, but the Serbs who fought wars against all of them as well as Slovenia. Not to mention that Macedonia split from Serbia and immediately asked for American troops to deter forcible re=incorporation into Greater Serbia. And now Montenegro is scheduling a referendum on getting away from Serbia in 2006. You might ask yourself why--if the Serbs are the victims here--that all their neighbors--Christian and Muslim alike-- wanted to get away from Serbia and why it was Pristina, Zagreb, and Sarajevo that were attacked by the Serbs; but not Belgrade by Albanians, Croats, or Bosnians.

And spare us the great Serb Christian versus Muslim B.S. The Serbs destroyed more Christian churches & monasteries than anyone else in the Balkans and Milosevic is indicted for more warcrimes against the Christian Croats than against any other nationality in the Balkans.

14 posted on 12/12/2005 8:56:23 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf

Markie

Slovenia DOSEN`T even have border with Serbia :)))
As I know,
Serbia borders with

1. Macedonia - No war
2. Bulgaria - No war
3. Romania - No war
4. Hungary - No war
5. Croatia Civil war by UN claim
6. Bosnia - Civil was by UN claim
7. Italy - Maritime border NO war
8. Albania - N war even during NATO agression.

Where the hell is Slovenia there?

Mar, go to sleep, it is winter, you know...


15 posted on 12/13/2005 4:09:52 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Unfortunately, the main political embodiment of Milosevic-style policies, the Serb Radical Party, is still the largest party in Serbia's parliament.

Without some percentages, that statement is completely meaningless. The CIA World Factbook lists these parties for Yugoslavia:

Democratic Party or DS [Boris TADIC]; Democratic Party of Serbia or DSS [Vojislav KOSTUNICA]; Democratic Party of Socialists of Montenegro or DPS [Milo DJUKANOVIC]; Democratic Serbian Party of Montenegro or DSS [Bozidar BOJOVIC]; G17 Plus [Miroljub LABUS]; New Serbia or NS [Velimir ILIC]; Liberal Party of Montenegro or LSCG [Miodrag ZIVKOVIC]; People's Party of Montenegro or NS [Dragan SOC]; Power of Serbia Movement or PSS [Bogoljub KARIC]; Serbian Radical Party or SRS [Tomislav NIKOLIC]; Serbian Renewal Movement or SPO [Vuk DRASKOVIC]; Serbian Socialist Party or SPS (former Communist Party and party of Slobodan MILOSEVIC) [Ivica DACIC, president of Main Board]; Social Democratic Party of Montenegro or SDP [Ranko KRIVOKAPIC]; Socialist People's Party of Montenegro or SNP [Predrag BULATOVIC]

I count fourteen in all. That means it's entirely possible for the "largest" of them to have less than 10% of the seats in Parliament. The real issue is whether or not Serbian policies have actually changed significanly for the better since Milosevic's departure. Is there any doubt in your mind that they have?

Under Secretary of State Nicholas Burns, Condi's second man down [and Clinton administration holdover], laid out the U.S. position on Kosovo in his testimony to Congress a few months ago:

The Bush administration has been talking out of both sides of its mouth on this. Its heavily trumpeted position is that democracies are the antidote to extremism and terror, and yet it shows no confidence at all in the Serbian democracy to maintain charge of its own country. Milosevic was an easy target because he was a "dictator", which implies that he was not acting with the consent of his governed, which would further imply that his subjects were not the ones to blame for his actions (whatever they were). But now that he's gone, there's still this sort of "collective guilt" that's hanging over the Serbs. Isn't that the same attitude that we were supposedly fighting against during the Balkan wars of the '90s?

16 posted on 12/13/2005 7:38:40 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: kronos77
Kronos, I respect your willingness to enter this debate even though English is not your first language. However, your argument above simply does not apply to what I posted.

The difficulty with framing the Balkans conflicts as Serb Christians versus Muslims or the Serbs as victims is that almost every entity of the former Yugoslavia, Christian & Muslim alike, broke away from Belgrade as soon as they were able:

Christian Slovenia, declared independence in 1991 followed by a short war ending in 1991.

Christian Croatia, declared independence in 1991 followed by a long war ending in 1995.

Mostly Muslim Bosnia, declared independence in 1991 followed by a long war ending in 1995.

Mostly Christian Macedonia, declared independence in 1991 while Serbia was occupied up north with Croatia and Bosnia. In 1993 U.S. troops were sent to Macedonia and posted along its northern border with Serbia as a deterrent.

Mostly Muslim Kosovo declared independence in 1991, fought war in 98-99 with NATO bombing intervention in 1999.

Mostly Christian Montenegro has scheduled a referendum on breaking away from Serbia in 2006.

Again, if Serbia was so wonderful, why has every entity--Christian & Muslim alike--broken away? And if Serbs are victims, why is it that it they attacked Sarajevo, Pristina, and Zagreb; but no Bosnians, Albanians or Croats attacked Belgrade?

17 posted on 12/13/2005 8:20:21 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: inquest
Inquest, the Serb Radical Party is the largest single party in the Serb parliament; it holds 81 of 240 seats and is part of the ruling coalition. Its leader, Vojislav Seselj, is awaiting trial for war crimes. Here's what Seselj had to say about 9-11:

“... I can’t say that I regret terrorist attacks against the USA” the leader of the Serbian Radical Party told the Beta news agency.

And here's the leader of Serbia's largest party on other topics:

"We're not fascists, we're just chauvinists who hate Croats"

"I am going to spite them, to tell them that the Serbian people will never give up the liberation of Serb Dubrovnik, Serb Dalmatia, Serb Lika, Serb Banija, Serb Kordun, Serb Slavonija, Serb Baranja, Serb Bosnia, Serb Hercegovina, Serb Kosovo and Serb Metohija."

"We must recognise with honour and respect the steadfastness of Iraq - the nation and the government - under the guidance of their president, the great fighter Saddam Hussein, in the face of a merciless embargo and frequent and continued aggression on that country."

"We shall realize the boundaries of Greater Serbia when we assume power at the federal level. As Serbia is now, as a federal unit, it does not have the competence to initiate this. But as a political party, we shall never give up this goal."

And my personal favorite:

"I do not speak English." (Shouting at a US journalist who addressed him in English at a news conference, May 1999)

18 posted on 12/13/2005 9:06:51 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: inquest
it shows no confidence at all in the Serbian democracy to maintain charge of its own country.

There are reasons to be concerned about the state of democracy in Serbia.

Less than two months after the March 12, 2003 murder of Serbia’s reformist Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic, the Serbian police, declaring the case solved, have charged some 45 people with various levels of involvement in the assassination plot. Those charged include ultranationalist leader Vojislav Seselj, now on trial at The Hague, underworld crime figures, and security officials responsible for protecting the late prime minister. The police investigation points to a joint plot of the so-called Zemun crime gang and political groups once allied with former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic.

19 posted on 12/13/2005 9:16:08 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf

Markie

Slovenia DOSEN`T even have border with Serbia :)))
As I know,
Serbia borders with

1. Macedonia - No war
2. Bulgaria - No war
3. Romania - No war
4. Hungary - No war
5. Croatia Civil war by UN claim
6. Bosnia - Civil was by UN claim
7. Italy - Maritime border NO war
8. Albania - N war even during NATO agression.

Where the hell is Slovenia there?

Mar, go to sleep, it is winter, you know...





Mark

Serbia HAve no border with Slovenia.
Go look the map!
In 1991 comander of Yugoslav army was today-Croatia president Stipe Mesic. Milosevic becam president of Yugoslavia in 1997.
Serbia took control of the army in 1992 when Federal republic Of Yugoslavia was formed.

Order for action in slovenia gave Ante Markovic, Croate, chief of federal goverment, Milosevic`s signature was nowhere found.

If you goy no evidence go to sleep If you have bring them or shut up.

Soros dosen`t pay well dosen`t he, or he might get better loudspeaker.


20 posted on 12/13/2005 9:41:14 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Inquest, the Serb Radical Party is the largest single party in the Serb parliament; it holds 81 of 240 seats and is part of the ruling coalition.

Despite being part of the "ruling coalition", none of its members serve as ministers in the government. And most of what little support it has comes from the fact that it's the only major party calling for Serbia to reestablish its rightful sovereignty over Kosovo. It's also had to tone down its rhetoric considerably in order to get votes (Seselj, despite what you've said, is no longer the party leader, since, as you've noted, he's in custody awaiting trial).

21 posted on 12/13/2005 9:53:38 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
There are reasons to be concerned about the state of democracy in Serbia.

What, the fact that there's still crime going on? Does it count at all that the criminal-justice system is indeed functioning properly, as your excerpt shows?

Serbia is at least as qualified to function as a sovereign democracy as Iraq is.

22 posted on 12/13/2005 9:56:48 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: inquest
What, the fact that there's still crime going on?

Prime Minister Djindjic was assassinated by people linked to other prominent political leaders (Milosevic & Seselj). That is not just simple crime, it is also a commentary on the state of democracy in Serbia.

Serbia is at least as qualified to function as a sovereign democracy as Iraq is.

No argument on that!

23 posted on 12/13/2005 10:16:09 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Prime Minister Djindjic was assassinated by people linked to other prominent political leaders (Milosevic & Seselj).

And by all indications, it backfired, seeing as how the authorities have ferreted out the people responsible. This has all the indications of a defensive attempt by the deposed political interests to hold on to what little they have left. As your noted in your own link: "The murder investigation enabled police to crack down on criminal elements allowed to flourish in the 1990s. More than 10,000 people were interrogated and some 4,500 detained on suspicion of various crimes, Vecernje Novosti (April 25) reported."

[Serbia is at least as qualified to function as a sovereign democracy as Iraq is.]

No argument on that!

And yet, our administration has seen fit to allow that country its sovereignty, despite the far worse political violence that goes on there.

24 posted on 12/13/2005 11:09:36 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: inquest
He doesn't know what he's talking about, Inquest. The Radicals aren't anywhere near the ruling coalition (the conservative DSS, SPO-NS, and the libertarian G17 form the ruling coalition ; granted, they do have to make deals with the Socialist Party's MPs to maintain the majority and pass laws).

The Radicals have 82 MPs in Parliament (250 seats total), but they will not be in power anytime soon. Under the Constitution, the President of the Republic does not necessarily have to nominate the leader of the largest party in Parliament for the positon of Prime Minister - he can nominate any other party leader, as long as the party leader gets the majority of votes from the MPs. That's how the current Government was formed after the 2003 election.

25 posted on 12/13/2005 9:01:11 PM PST by Banat ("You've got two empty 'alves of coconut, and you're banging 'em together!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Banat
I could tell that there wasn't much point to his point when all he said was "largest party" and nothing more. Such a term is completely meaningless when talking about most European parliamentary systems, because most of them don't have nice, neat two-party systems the way we do in the U.S.

In those places, a "party" is more like a building block for an actual political organization. They're more the rough equivalent of caucuses in Congress (the Congressional Black Caucus, the Repulican Liberty Caucus, etc.). It's the way the parties organize together that determines actual power. The Radicals look like they're mostly out of the loop on that.

26 posted on 12/14/2005 8:54:44 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: inquest; Banat
You guys missed the point. The issue is not the intricacies of parliamentary rule, but what it means when the extremist nationalist Serb Radical Party, run by an anti-American racist nut-job until he was arrested as a war criminal, receives more support than any other party in Serbia--to the tune of about 1/3 the votes.

It's actually very simple: The more influential that extreme nationalists are in Serbia, the more likely that the US and international community will lean toward independence for Kosovo.

27 posted on 12/14/2005 9:42:00 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
The issue is not the intricacies of parliamentary rule, but what it means when the extremist nationalist Serb Radical Party, run by an anti-American racist nut-job until he was arrested as a war criminal, receives more support than any other party in Serbia--to the tune of about 1/3 the votes.

As we've explained to you, it means essentially nothing, when it comes to Serbia's policies, or the health of its democracy. Therefore, neither the UN or anyone else outside of Serbia has the right to take its territory away.

28 posted on 12/14/2005 9:55:27 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: inquest
neither the UN or anyone else outside of Serbia has the right to take its territory away.

Well, that's not the issue either. We are back to post #8 in which Senator Jesse Helms addressed the Kosovo issue in a speech to the United Nations:

We are endowed with those "inalienable rights," as Thomas Jefferson proclaimed in our Declaration of Independence, not by kings or despots, but by our Creator. The sovereignty of nations must be respected. But nations derive their sovereignty -- their legitimacy -- from the consent of the governed. Thus, it follows, that nations can lose their legitimacy when they rule without the consent of the governed; they deservedly discard their sovereignty by brutally oppressing their people. Slobodan Milosevic cannot claim sovereignty over Kosovo when he has murdered Kosovars and piled their bodies into mass graves. Neither can Fidel Castro claim that it is his sovereign right to oppress his people. Nor can Saddam Hussein defend his oppression of the Iraqi people by hiding behind phony claims of sovereignty. And when the oppressed peoples of the world cry out for help, the free peoples of the world have a fundamental right to respond

29 posted on 12/14/2005 10:28:50 AM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
We're just going around in circles now. As I explained, the words you bolded no longer apply. And that is the exact "issue".
30 posted on 12/14/2005 11:16:34 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Mark, the fact that the Radicals have the support of 1/3 of the electorate doesn't mean anything - especially when you have a swing block of some 25% of the electorate. These people (roughly 1.2 million voters) have no clue who they're gonna vote for until the election day, but it is almost certain they won't be voting Radical.

And even though Serbia uses PR, the mechanism in the Constitution (the one that doesn't require President to nominate the leader of the largest party for the position of PM) keeps the extremists out of power. As long as the so-called democratic block (DSS, DS, G17, SPO-NS) has 126+ MPs, we're good.

Unfortunately, PR also allows minor parties to enter Parliament and their MPs are a big question mark (i.e. they might not vote for a democratic block gov't, or they might support a SRS gov't). The threshold is reasonably high (5%), but it needs to be a progressive/incremental one (i.e. it's stupid to have the same threshold for 1 party and a coalition of parties).

Anyway, Serbia of 2005 is a completely different Serbia. Miloshevich is in the Hague and there aren't any convenient boogeymen left in Serbia. The West isn't buying it anymore.

31 posted on 12/14/2005 5:00:10 PM PST by Banat ("You've got two empty 'alves of coconut, and you're banging 'em together!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Banat
Banat, thanks for your "insider" views of Serb politics. And I agree with you that Serbia is a much different & better place with Milosevic gone. However, the fact that a bloc comprising 1/3 of the Serb electorate still votes for the Serb Radical Party (i.e. the agenda of extreme nationalism as exemplified by the Greater Serbia project of the 1990s)will be in the minds of the Contact Group diplomats if, barring agreement between the Serb & Kosovo Albanian negotiators, the Contact Group must intervene.

The corollary to what I said in post 27 is that the more influential the moderates in Serbia are, the likely the US and international community will lean toward a solution favorable to Serbia. And here's a hint: your buddies talking about sending the Serb Army back into Kosovo and spouting that nonsense about the Albanians as Islamists or "jihadists" are not helping your cause.

32 posted on 12/14/2005 6:03:24 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf

So you state that the Muhammedans can't claim the province either because of piling Serbs and Roma into mass graves then, right, right? LOL!

You fluff better than you argue!


33 posted on 12/14/2005 6:50:31 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: FormerLib
Lib, you are wrong yet again. The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo was conducted by the Serbian government--the same government that is supposed to enforce the rule of law and safeguard its citizens, not send thugs to rob, rape and murder them before expelling the rest from their homes at the point of a gun and forcing them out of the country. Any government of that nature forfeits its legitimacy.

Now after the refugees came back to Kosovo & buried their dead and salvaged what they could from their burned out homes & schools & stores, the fact that some got somewhat angry and took it out on the remaining Serbs and their perceived Roma collaborators is wrong and regrettable. However, their crimes did not stem from government policy as did the crimes of the Serb paramilitary thugs under Milosevic.

34 posted on 12/14/2005 7:58:28 PM PST by mark502inf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf

All you've done is prove that your beloved Jihadists don't operate under a government but commit their acts of terror with a degree of independence.

But peace will return to Kosovo along with the Serb Army, who will dispense justice as well.


35 posted on 12/14/2005 9:38:19 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Of course you are not aggressors! It just happens that Albanians – absolute minority in Turks-ruled Kosovo and Metohija are now absolute majority. Serbs, at other hand are evil – even worse they are incompetent! After less then one century, with all their “ethnical cleansing” they managed to cleanse themselves from their ancient lands. Remember, in 1912, 98% of Bosnian population were Serbs. They really need to start make some improvements.

Serbs are people with lots of problems I’ve told you before Serbs made many mistakes and worst is called Yugoslavia. Serbs are slow to understand and fast to forgive and they refuse to learn from the history. Providence put them on where they live with one mission – their destiny is to be for Balkans what Germany is for Europe. They build house on the road and if they want to survive they will have to change their naïve and gentle ways. They will have to become more like their neighbors. They will have to start doing to Albs what Albs doing to them, for example. As for ghost of so-called Greater Serbia I am not proponent of it. I just want to see Serbia in its historical, geographical and natural borders.
36 posted on 12/15/2005 6:53:35 PM PST by zagor-te-nej (USS - United States of Serbia)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf; kronos77

Personally, I don’t have any problems with Albs “breaking away” from Serbia. You are strangers to that land (and to Europe) and you really should leave Serbia – sooner is better. As you know, your tribe invaded and occupied Serbia during Turkish occupation, WW 2, after 1945 when Yugoslavia was under communist dictatorship of Croat Tito and after 1999. Today, in occupied Kosmet you’ve established apartheid and narco regime. Reign of terror and violence for non-Albanians.

Serbs could walk you to the borders and there you could say farewell to each other and exchange addresses. I am just opposed to recognize “rights” of non-citizen and illegal aliens to take with them what is rightfully owned by Serb citizens, Serb church and Serb state. Such precedents are dangerous and they could be used by others – lets say in Miami, Texas or Arizona.


37 posted on 12/15/2005 7:09:43 PM PST by zagor-te-nej (USS - United States of Serbia)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: zagor-te-nej
Remember, in 1912, 98% of Bosnian population were Serbs.

That 1912 encyclopedia you were linking to has a different definition of "Serb" that we use today. It states,

"Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials, and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs."

So it's defining "Serbs" as the entire southern Slavic ethnic group. This is further demonstrated by the very next sentence:

"Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent). The last mentioned are chiefly peasants."

It's only the "Greek Schismatics" that are referred to as Serbs nowadays.

I agree, as I've said above, that the continuing violation of Serbia's territory by the UN should cease. I just want to make sure that erroneous information doesn't derail that effort.

38 posted on 12/16/2005 7:35:02 AM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: zagor-te-nej
I'm in Kosovo now and it seems like every week another Serb or other ethnic minority has been shot or killed or bombed...etc..etc..

Ethnic Albanians have no room here for any ethnic group save Albanian. I am married to a ethnic Bosnian and we are harassed by the police here constantly and I am here to help them.

I have heard various Albanians claim if they don't get independence, "There going to War". With who? With what Army? Without 78 days of NATO bombing we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
39 posted on 12/30/2005 12:30:29 AM PST by pusimikurac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: mark502inf
Everyone acts as if Serbia invaded Bosnia and Croatia. Last I checked Serbs had lived there for centuries. When Izabegovic and Tujman decide to break from Yugoslavia the Serbs living in those areas wanted to remain in the Federation.

As far as Slovenia, check US history. When states try to break away should the government just let them go??
40 posted on 12/30/2005 12:38:31 AM PST by pusimikurac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: zagor-te-nej
"Such precedents are dangerous and they could be used by others – lets say in Miami, Texas or Arizona. "

Bingo

41 posted on 12/30/2005 12:46:56 AM PST by endthematrix (Those who despise freedom and progress have condemned themselves to isolation, decline, and collapse)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson