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Experts dispute Williams claim of founding Crips
Reuters ^ | Mon Dec 12, 2005 | Dan Whitcomb

Posted on 12/12/2005 8:17:44 PM PST by nickcarraway

LOS ANGELES, Dec 12 (Reuters) - The debate over the imminent execution of Stanley Tookie Williams hinges partly on his claim that he founded the notorious Crips street gang -- then renounced a criminal life in a quest for redemption.

Though Williams, who is scheduled to die on Tuesday, maintains his innocence in the four 1979 murders that landed him on death row, he takes credit for founding the Crips a decade earlier with another teenager, Raymond Washington, and says he now regrets his role.

Prosecutors question the 51-year-old Williams' sincerity in repudiating the Crips. Experts say the convicted killer and his supporters have also overstated his role in founding the gang -- which has a reputation for violence -- as a way of emphasizing his claim of redemption.

"Actually, everybody but Tookie gives Raymond Washington credit for starting (the Crips)," said Malcolm Klein, an emeritus professor of sociology at the University of Southern California who has studied gangs since 1962.

"Instead of founding the gang, which is what Tookie claims, what you're really talking about is emerging as a dominant figure," Klein told Reuters. "Because he is such a dominant, violent, articulate bad guy, rather than leadership you're talking about influence."

Latino gangs first surfaced in Los Angeles after the turn of the century, historians say, and black gangs may have formed in the 1930s.

Blacks moved to Los Angeles in large numbers during World War II and those gangs gained strength until the mid-1960s, when youths were drawn to the civil-rights movement and radical political groups like the Black Panthers.

WILLIAMS AS ANTI-HERO

By the end of that decade, the Panthers had faded and 15-year-old Washington stepped into a power vacuum, creating a gang he initially called the Baby Avenues. The origins of the name "Crips" are hazy, though one theory attributes it to a disabled member known as a "cripple" to his comrades.

"The Crips were already well established when Tookie came on the scene," said retired Los Angeles County Sheriff's Sgt. and gang expert Wes McBride.

"(That he created the Crips) is part of his mystique that his supporters are using to try get him commuted. It gives him a stature as an anti-hero kind of person that has now turned his life around."

McBride says Williams, known by his middle name Tookie or the nickname "Big Took," helped build and solidify the Crips. The gang caught the imagination of the media after killing the son of a prominent black attorney and entering the popular culture through Hollywood films.

The Bloods emerged as rivals to the Crips in the early 1970s and the two gangs have feuded ever since.

McBride dismissed as "nonsense" claims by Williams that he started the Crips to defend his neighborhood against other gangs.

Williams has become a cause for anti-death penalty activists, including rapper and former Crips member Snoop Dogg and Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx, who starred in a sympathetic TV movie about the convicted murderer.

His case is one of several that have drawn attention to the U.S. use of the death penalty, as America recently passed its 1,000th execution since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstituted capital punishment in 1976.

McBride said there are now some 200 Crips gangs, though most are only loosely affiliated, with some 25,000 members in the Los Angeles area. Hundreds of people, mostly young black men, are killed each year in California by gangs.

Washington was killed by a rival gang member in 1979.

"There's not a whole lot of difference between the Crips of today and the Crips of yesteryear, only there's more of them," McBride said. "They are more involved in narcotics trafficking than they used to be, but Crips will do whatever they can to make money. Bank robberies, armored car robberies."

"Their legacy is that they've helped destroy the black community," McBride said. "Gangs kill communities just as surely as they kill people."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: criminal; crips; deathpenalty; gangs; organizedcrime; spookie; stanleywilliams; tookie; tookiewilliams

1 posted on 12/12/2005 8:17:45 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

Too bad, now the Left won't care if he dies, unless there's a last-minute revelation of him murdering some nuns or something.


2 posted on 12/12/2005 8:23:25 PM PST by Darkwolf377 (An agnostic who never, ever says "Happy Holidays")
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To: nickcarraway
"Actually, everybody but Tookie gives Raymond Washington credit for starting (the Crips)," said Malcolm Klein, an emeritus professor of sociology at the University of Southern California who has studied gangs since 1962.

Your tax dollars at work.

3 posted on 12/12/2005 8:24:25 PM PST by fat city ("The nation that controls magnetism controls the world.")
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To: nickcarraway

I thought he was in a stable condition, at room temperature, by now...


4 posted on 12/12/2005 8:26:52 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: nickcarraway

The Potassium Chloride doesn't care whether or not he did.


5 posted on 12/12/2005 8:27:16 PM PST by digger48
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To: nickcarraway

Which came first - the chicken or the fried egg?


6 posted on 12/12/2005 8:27:46 PM PST by Libloather (God bless America - and the blue states, too...)
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To: fat city

Actually, SC is a "private" school.....but I agree this Klein character likely is supported by govt grants to study this "worthwhile" phenomena.


7 posted on 12/12/2005 8:27:49 PM PST by jaguaretype (Sometimes war IS the answer)
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To: Darkwolf377

If they could dig up an expert who claims that Williams hasn't actually been born yet all these lefties will fight to pull the switch.


8 posted on 12/12/2005 8:29:04 PM PST by wolf24
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To: fat city

Come on. Somebody has keep track of these scum. Tookie's fan club is over-stating his role to attract attention. The story here is that Took is just a two-bit thug, and an over-rated one at that.


9 posted on 12/12/2005 8:29:16 PM PST by Callahan
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Why is the media trying desperately to elevate this bum?


10 posted on 12/12/2005 8:29:27 PM PST by RandallFlagg (Roll your own cigarettes! You'll save $$$ and smoke less!(Magnetic bumper stickers-click my name)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
I thought he was in a stable condition, at room temperature, by now...

just his followers brains, Tookies got a couple more hours to sob like the coward he is

11 posted on 12/12/2005 8:30:07 PM PST by digger48
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To: nickcarraway

He founded the Crips, before he didn't found them.


12 posted on 12/12/2005 8:30:36 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: nickcarraway
then renounced a criminal life

What a joke!

Tookie committed all kinds of crime in the Big House including sexual assaults on other inmates but you don't hear about that in the wacko leftist liberal rags

13 posted on 12/12/2005 8:32:28 PM PST by apackof2 (You can stand me up at the gates of hell, I'll stand my ground and I won’t back down)
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To: RandallFlagg
Why is the media trying desperately to elevate this bum?

Most all the newsrooms are run by like-minded Leftists.

14 posted on 12/12/2005 8:32:28 PM PST by digger48
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To: dfwgator
He founded the Crips, before he didn't found them.

LOL, too funny

15 posted on 12/12/2005 8:33:10 PM PST by apackof2 (You can stand me up at the gates of hell, I'll stand my ground and I won’t back down)
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To: dfwgator

he's a democrat?


16 posted on 12/12/2005 8:33:39 PM PST by lexington minuteman 1775
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To: nickcarraway

Raymond Washington was killed by a rival gang member....Hmmm I wonder if he was shot in the back at point blank range with a shotgun?


17 posted on 12/12/2005 8:33:58 PM PST by usmcobra (30 years since I first celebrated The Marine Corps Birthday as a Marine)
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To: nickcarraway

"Gangs kill communities just as surely as they kill people."

So does immigration.....


18 posted on 12/12/2005 8:34:15 PM PST by AZRepublican
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To: dfwgator

Actually, it's little known fact that Vietnam War Hero John Kerry and Internet inventor Al Gore teamed up to found the Crips in 1962. Back then, they went by their full name, the Crippled Prep School Albino Negroes. You betta recognize!


19 posted on 12/12/2005 8:34:35 PM PST by Callahan
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To: nickcarraway
I was working for the Youth Authority and can remember the first time I heard the word crips in late 72. In 73/74, we had Jamal Barnes on our housing unit. His biceps were 23 inches and we had to cut his shirts so he could put them on.

Barnes was a real thug and clearly the leader of the group. He called everyone cuz.

After he left I heard he was one of the original OGs in the crips.

Barnes is on the radio last week telling the story that he was already there when tookie drive up.

BTW Barnes appeared on the gong show flexing his muscles to music. Yes, he was..............

We used to tell the wards that crip meant cowards run in packs. The biggest gang where I worked was the staff.

20 posted on 12/12/2005 8:35:15 PM PST by bigsigh
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To: bigsigh

Weren't the Crips the inspiration for the Riffs in the movie "The Warriors?"

Well now Tookie is going to get the Cyrus treatment, can you dig it?


21 posted on 12/12/2005 8:37:05 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: nickcarraway

"The origins of the name "Crips" are hazy, though one theory attributes it to a disabled member known as a "cripple" to his comrades."

A South Park moment.

Timmy and Jimmy want to form a steet gang called the Crips, for Cripples, only to find that the gang already exists. So they decide to join.

Timmah!!!!!!!! Forever. Very funny.


22 posted on 12/12/2005 8:37:18 PM PST by beaver fever
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To: digger48

Yeah, and no flat screen TV roits have taken place yet. That should have tipped me off.


23 posted on 12/12/2005 8:37:23 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: dfwgator

Tooookie...come out and play!!!


24 posted on 12/12/2005 8:38:06 PM PST by Callahan
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To: dfwgator

I know of the movie, but didn't see it. Don't know the answer.


25 posted on 12/12/2005 8:38:08 PM PST by bigsigh
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To: beaver fever

Timmah!


26 posted on 12/12/2005 8:39:10 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: nickcarraway

Who cares what the dispute. It does not change the fact that he murdered 4 people. He also laughed at the sound the dying boy made. He is evil.


27 posted on 12/12/2005 8:40:03 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: nickcarraway

bttt


28 posted on 12/12/2005 8:41:15 PM PST by nopardons
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Yeah, and no flat screen TV roits have taken place yet.

I guess their Christmas gift list is finished.

29 posted on 12/12/2005 8:42:14 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: dfwgator

It was the Grammercy Riffs. I have not heard they were based on the real life Crips more than any other gang.

Remember the Baseball Furies?


30 posted on 12/12/2005 8:43:05 PM PST by Callahan
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To: Dustbunny

12 looting days left til Christmas.


31 posted on 12/12/2005 8:44:02 PM PST by bigsigh
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To: jaguaretype; Callahan
Here's Klein's creds. Where would we be without soc profs? Professor Emeritus
32 posted on 12/12/2005 8:45:08 PM PST by fat city ("The nation that controls magnetism controls the world.")
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To: nickcarraway

Wasn't he known for introducing the teased Afro into prison?


33 posted on 12/12/2005 8:45:24 PM PST by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: bigsigh

On the first day of Christmas a looter got for me, a dead body named Tookie.

On the second day of Christmas a looter got for me, two televisions and a dead body named Tookie

...

This will keep me up all night.


34 posted on 12/12/2005 8:46:57 PM PST by Callahan
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To: Dustbunny
Can one get warranty coverage on a looted 52" plasma TV if they obtained it while under duress? Isn't there some kind of rule about race-riot looting that covers it?
35 posted on 12/12/2005 8:49:04 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird (Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.)
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To: Callahan

you need a serious hobby


36 posted on 12/12/2005 8:49:15 PM PST by bigsigh
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To: nickcarraway
"Instead of founding the gang, which is what Tookie claims, what you're really talking about is emerging as a dominant figure," Klein told Reuters. "Because he is such a dominant, violent, articulate bad guy, rather than leadership you're talking about influence."

In other words, he was Stalin, not Lenin.

37 posted on 12/12/2005 8:52:16 PM PST by MRMEAN (Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of congress;but I repeat myself. Mark Twain)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
Can one get warranty coverage on a looted 52" plasma TV if they obtained it while under duress? Isn't there some kind of rule about race-riot looting that covers it?

ROFLOL

38 posted on 12/12/2005 8:55:55 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: nickcarraway
Experts dispute Williams claim of founding Crips

Which experts dispute?

Seems that they all agree!

He Die?

Dey shoud'a done been did it!

39 posted on 12/12/2005 9:10:07 PM PST by jrushing (Democrats=National Socialist Workers Party)
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To: Dustbunny

Exactly....this is an issue? He could have founded the Salvation Army but is going to be terminated for killing 4 people in cold blood.


40 posted on 12/12/2005 9:17:46 PM PST by xp38
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To: nickcarraway

Where's the "Barf Alert" in the title?


41 posted on 12/12/2005 9:28:05 PM PST by anonymous_user (I'm going to wish you a Merry Christmas, but I'm not forcing you to have one.)
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To: nickcarraway
Tookie didn't form the Crips.


42 posted on 12/12/2005 9:28:29 PM PST by LdSentinal
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To: nickcarraway

Experts dispute Williams claim of founding Crips


----Let it go. No one cares who started the Crips. Tookie murdered people. He is going to die for it.

Stick a fork in Tookie. He is done........


43 posted on 12/12/2005 9:43:33 PM PST by WasDougsLamb (I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man)
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To: LdSentinal

Timmah!


44 posted on 12/12/2005 9:44:07 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: nickcarraway
Washington formed the Baby Avenues club in 1969.

Williams rose to a position of influence in the Crips after they gained local noteriety and their new name from a LA Sentinel article in 1972.

45 posted on 12/12/2005 10:10:00 PM PST by Amerigomag
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To: bigsigh
crip meant cowards run in packs

Now that's odd; I thought Crips it stood for Criminals Rampaging In Public Streets.

46 posted on 12/12/2005 10:46:58 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Islam: a Satanically Transmitted Disease, spread by unprotected intimate contact with the Koranus.)
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To: AZRepublican
"Gangs kill communities just as surely as they kill people."

So does immigration.....

Illegal immigration.

47 posted on 12/12/2005 10:47:38 PM PST by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: nickcarraway
Who cares?

Tookie is worm dookie.

Or soon will be, as soon as they dump his garbage body in the cold, cold ground.

Tough cookies, tookies.

Now you're a footnote in history.

48 posted on 12/13/2005 4:55:36 AM PST by OldSmaj (Hey Islam...I flushed a koran today and I let my dog pp on it first. Come get me, moon bats!)
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"The origins of the name "Crips" are hazy, though one theory attributes it to a disabled member known as a "cripple""

Sounds just like that South Park episode.


49 posted on 12/13/2005 6:44:18 AM PST by SmoothTalker
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