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Romans May Have Learned From Chinese Great Wall: Archaeologists
People's Daily Online/Xinhua ^ | 12-20-2005

Posted on 12/20/2005 9:59:10 AM PST by blam

Romans may have learned from Chinese Great Wall: archaeologists

The construction of the Roman Limes was quite possibly influenced by the concept of the Great Wall in China, though the two great buildings of the world are far away from each other, said archaeologists and historians.

Although there is no evidence that the two constructions had any direct connections, indirect influence from the Great Wall on the Roman Limes is certain, said Visy Zsolt, a professor with the Department of Ancient History and Archaeology of the University of Pecs in Hungary.

Visy made the remarks in an interview with Xinhua as he attended an international conference in Xi'an, capital of northwest China's Shaanxi Province recently, and his opinion was shared by some Chinese and foreign scholars.

The Roman Limes are Europe's largest archaeological monument, consisting of sections of the border line of the Roman Empire at its greatest extent in the 2nd century AD.

All together, the Limes stretch over 5,000 kilometers from the Atlantic coast of northern Britain, through Europe to the Black Sea, and from there to the Red Sea and across North Africa to the Atlantic coast.

Vestiges include the remains of the ramparts, walls and ditches, close to 900 watchtowers, 60 forts, and civilian settlements which accommodated tradesmen, craftsmen and others who served in the military.

The long distance and the great number of different peoples and cultures in Central Asia made any connections between the two ancient Roman and Chinese empires almost impossible.

However, curiosity and the challenge of covering great distances and seeing remote lands excited people in the past, Visy said.

"Indeed, more information about each other could be gained exactly in times as the one or the other became stronger and could start some programs toward the other," Visy said.

As for the Roman Empire, the silk trade started during the reign of Augustus. The trade became intensive both on the Silk Route and in the sea.

The Chinese chief commander Ban Chao led an army up the Caspian Sea in the 1st century AD and sent a delegation to the west to get information about Rome (called Daqin in Chinese).

Visy noted that there are a lot of similarities between the Roman Limes and the Great Wall. Both empires wanted to launch a strong barrier against "barbarians" and to prevent their invasions. In doing so, the Han Dynasty (226 BC-220 AD) built a continuous wall, but Rome built a wall only in special cases.

"It was an important point in both systems to build a military road along the limes, as well as a row of beacon towers in a strict sequence. Also the military centers and bigger forts are similar in the Roman and in the Chinese constructions," Visy said.

Archaeologists have found almost the same methods were used for providing signs at the Great Wall and the Roman Limes.

Visy said another factor that should not be neglected is that the western most sector of the Great Wall was built in the last decades of the 2nd century BC, during the strong rule of Emperor Wu of the Han Dynasty.

"The Chinese Empire seems to be interested in Western connections, at least in Central Asia," Visy said.

The trade connections between the two empires were quite intensive in the first century and at least in the first half of the second one. "It is worth noting that the north line of the Silk Road was opened also at the beginning of the 1st century AD," Visy said.

A. Stein and other scholars' research in the region of Dunhuang and Lop Nur in northwest China has also found similarities between the Great Wall and the Roman Limes, according to Visy.

Taking all these points into consideration one can ask the question if all this is due to chance or if there is a connection between the two constructions, Visy said.

"It is quite obvious to suppose that Rome gained information about China and about their special, complicated structure of frontier defence. Could the idea of the strong limes not come from the well-tried system of China?" Visy added.

Xu Weimin, director of the Department of History of Northwest China University, said that during the 400 years from the 3rd century BC to the 2nd century AD, lots of Chinese silk was transported to the western countries via the Silk Road. It is natural that the information about the Great Wall was spread to the Rome Empire.

The Great Wall was first built in the 7th century BC, and was repaired, enlarged and rebuilt in many dynasties. In the Han Dynasty, the western most part of the Great Wall was extended to the Lop Nur in today's Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region to protect the Silk Road.

Chen Yongzhi, vice director of the Institute of Archaeology of the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, said the exchanges between the east and west started earlier than believed. In addition to silk, the information about the Great Wall was also exchanged.

"It's convincing that the Roman Limes and the Great Wall have some 'blood relationship'," Chen added.

Source: Xinhua


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: archaeologists; china; chinese; from; godsgravesglyphs; great; greatwallofchina; have; learned; limes; may; milhist; militaryhistory; romanempire; romans; wall
"The long distance and the great number of different peoples and cultures in Central Asia made any connections between the two ancient Roman and Chinese empires almost impossible."

Pure BS!

The 4,000 year old red-headed Caucasian mummies found in China were found very near Dunhuang, the location of the 'Jade Gate' in the Great Wall Of China.

Elizabeth Barber, in her book, Mummies Of Urumchi, clearly established a connection between the mummies and the Celts at Halstadt, Austria...5,000 miles away from the site of the mummies.

1 posted on 12/20/2005 9:59:12 AM PST by blam
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To: blam

If you build a wall, and I build a wall, utilizing the construction materials of the same time, for the same purposes, then it isn't out of the realm of possibility that your wall and my wall would be similar is size, shape and basic design.........


2 posted on 12/20/2005 10:03:09 AM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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To: blam

I think it's implausible that the Roman frontier defenses were in any way, shape, or form dependent on the Chinese frontier defenses. The concept of a wall is quite universal, and the idea that a big wall on the borders will keep out invadors is nothing if not obvious.

Keep in mind that Chinese archaeology is notorious for misrepresenting history for Chinese propaganda purposes.


3 posted on 12/20/2005 10:07:39 AM PST by AntiGuv ()
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To: blam

Very cool. Thanks for posting!


4 posted on 12/20/2005 10:07:49 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The Katrina Media never gets anything right, so why should I believe them?)
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To: blam

I think it's implausible that the Roman frontier defenses were in any way, shape, or form dependent on the Chinese frontier defenses. The concept of a wall is quite universal, and the idea that a big wall on the borders will keep out invadors is nothing if not obvious.

Keep in mind that Chinese archaeology is notorious for misrepresenting history for Chinese propaganda purposes.


5 posted on 12/20/2005 10:07:49 AM PST by AntiGuv ()
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To: blam

News of the future: US learns from great wall, closes Mexican border.


6 posted on 12/20/2005 10:10:24 AM PST by Rain-maker
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To: AntiGuv

Dunno why I hiccuped!

BTW, one of the biggest arguments against the notion that the Roman defenses were predicated on the Chinese defenses is that the Roman frontier defenses were never systematic in the same way that the Chinese defenses were. More importantly, we do have considerable records of the development of the Roman Limes and of the Great Wall and to my knowledge there is no record of the Romans acknowledging the alleged Chinese origin of the idea.

Finally, we have a good sense of how familiar the Romans were with China and the Chinese were with Rome and it's quite clear that they had nothing but the very dimmest conception that one another existed.


7 posted on 12/20/2005 10:11:16 AM PST by AntiGuv ()
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To: SunkenCiv
GGG Ping.

The Mummies Of Urumchi


8 posted on 12/20/2005 10:11:59 AM PST by blam
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To: blam

This hypothesis I think is clearly a post hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy, and by applying the same logic I see no reason whatsoever that the Great Wall of China wasn't inspired by the Long Walls of Athens.


9 posted on 12/20/2005 10:21:00 AM PST by AntiGuv ()
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To: blam

This is nothing more than a continuation of the old communist "we invented it first" BS.


10 posted on 12/20/2005 10:23:06 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: blam
The Roman border walls and the Great Wall have absolutely no relationship with one another.

This is the Chinese government making ridiculous assertions.

Sovereigns have been building territorial walls to keep out bandits since Sumer.

11 posted on 12/20/2005 10:24:48 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Natural Law
Correct. And the Great Wall as we know it was an invention of the 14th century. Hadrian's Wall was built in the 2nd century.

the Qin wall was built in 200 BC, but it was only a few dozen miles long and not continuous.

12 posted on 12/20/2005 10:27:31 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Red Badger

On the other hand, it may only prove that the solution to similar problems may come up with similar simple answers.

In virtually every area of the world where large beasts were available for taming and working, man developed wheels. I don't think anyone claims that wheels were the invention of one single culture.

However, in the Americas, where no large draft animals were available, the wheel was unknown except as a children's toy. It apparently wasn't considered as a solution to a common problem.


13 posted on 12/20/2005 10:38:31 AM PST by wildbill
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To: blam

The construction of the border fence marked the end of expansion of the Roman Empire, which, since expansion of the Empire was the driving force of the Empire, marked also the end of the rise of the Empire and the beginning of its descent.


14 posted on 12/20/2005 10:42:43 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: wideawake
Correct. And the Great Wall as we know it was an invention of the 14th century. Hadrian's Wall was built in the 2nd century.

So it makes you wonder why, after a lull, the Chinese government is once again touting Chinese superiority; esp. using something so easily disproved as this.

Could a cloud have appeared in the enamel blue sky of the Middle Kingdom?

15 posted on 12/20/2005 10:46:39 AM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: blam
"The long distance and the great number of different peoples and cultures in Central Asia made any connections between the two ancient Roman and Chinese empires almost impossible."

Nevermind the fact that they exchanged ambassadors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_embassies_to_China
16 posted on 12/20/2005 10:49:28 AM PST by English Nationalist
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks Blam. There was contact, but I find the rest of the article a little farfetched. :') OTOH, I'll post a link in a minute that will send everyone running. ;')

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
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17 posted on 12/20/2005 11:13:24 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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Romans in China?
Archaeology | Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 | Erling Hoh
Posted on 07/18/2004 8:43:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1173944/posts


18 posted on 12/20/2005 11:15:39 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: English Nationalist
To say that Han China and Antonine Rome exchanged ambassadors is really stretching the description in that article, much less the meaning of the terms.

First, the entire notion of sitting embassies that this implies did not exist in that era. To say that one exchanged embassies is to say that envoys were sent from one court to another.

Second, nothing in that article suggests that a Chinese 'ambassador' got any further than Seleucid Syria, during the Hellenistic Era, before the Roman Empire even existed.

Third, that Roman merchants made is far as China - and vice versa - is hardly controversial. But to suggest that they were 'officially' dispatched by, say, Marcus Aurelius is rather pushing it.

Fourth, and related, there is no record of Marcus Aurelius sending envoys to China. At best, one would say that this was of no consequence.

Fifth, the Roman Limes were mostly in place some fifty years before the reign of Marcus Aurelius, and almost entirely completed during the reign of Hadrian.

Sixth, the uncontroversial notion that some itinerant Romans stumbled their way over to China hardly leads to the idea that said Romans toured the rudimentary Chinese frontier defenses of that era, returned to Rome, received an imperial audience, and led, say, Emperor Trajan to say: A ha! What a wonderful idea! We shall mimic it post haste!

Seventh, it is well-known that the Romans had a dim concept of some great empire on the other side of the world, as did the Chinese have a dim concept of some great empire on the other side of the world. There are plenty of cartographic and geographic records to confirm that this is all they were aware of. Over and over again there is nothing whatsoever of detail or substance written in either Rome with regard to China or in China with regard to Rome. All it ever amounts to is: there's some great empire way over there, beyond all these other great empires that are of far more immediate interest.

19 posted on 12/20/2005 11:23:52 AM PST by AntiGuv ()
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To: wideawake
The Great Wall we see today was built during the Ming dynasty. However, there were several other Great Walls built in the previous dynasties. Remnants of them still exist, but only in bits and pieces.

If the Hungarian guy was talking about the similarities between the Lime and the Great Wall, he must be referring to the earlier versions of the Great Wall.
20 posted on 12/20/2005 11:29:08 AM PST by Fishing-guy
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To: blam

They called the Romans Daqin...I wonder if that's any connection to the name Tarquin?


21 posted on 12/20/2005 11:29:08 AM PST by Graymatter
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To: wildbill
"I don't think anyone claims that wheels were the invention of one single culture."

I know of no wheel technology that predates the Flintstone technology extant in Bedrock.
22 posted on 12/20/2005 11:30:09 AM PST by Born to Conserve
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To: wideawake

I would submit that the Chinese actually learned from the Romans. Roman soldiers who disappeared after a famous defeat founded a city in eastern China, archaeologists say .

The phantom legion was part of the defeated forces of Marcus Licinius Crassus, according to the current edition of the Italian magazine Archeologia Viva .

The famously wealthy Crassus needed glory to rival the exploits of the two men with whom he ruled Rome as the First Triumvirate, Pompey the Great and Julius Caesar .

Crassus decided to bring down the Parthian Empire - a fatal choice .

His forces were routed in 53 BC outside the Mesopotamian city of Carre - today's Harran - and he was beheaded .

According to the Roman historian Pliny, the Romans who survived were taken to a prison camp in what is now northern Afghanistan .

When Rome and Parthia sued for peace in 20 BC - 33 years after Crassus's last battle - all trace of the prisoners had disappeared .

The survivors of Crassus's legion became a mystery, walking ghosts in Roman legends. A Chinese historian in the Han Empire, China's second dynasty, provided an answer to the riddle in the early 3rd century AD .

The historian, Bau Gau, wrote that a Chinese war leader defeated a group of soldiers drawn up in typical Roman formation .

Crassus's old troops must now have been in their fifties and sixties .

Bau Gau said the foreigners were moved to China to defend the strategically important eastern region of Gansu, near today's city of Yongchang .

This is where the survivors founded the city of Liquian, the only site in China where the mark of Ancient Rome can be seen. 'Liquian' is said to mean 'Roman' .

The city has been virtually unknown outside China although hundreds of people visit it each year, admiring traces of defensive wallworks and pieces of broken pottery .


23 posted on 12/20/2005 11:32:34 AM PST by Natural Law
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To: blam

File this under "highly unlikely."


24 posted on 12/20/2005 12:01:18 PM PST by Antoninus (Hillary smiles every time a Freeper trashes Rick Santorum)
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To: Natural Law
"Bau Gau said the foreigners were moved to China to defend the strategically important eastern region of Gansu, near today's city of Yongchang ."

The Caucasians have always been in China and predate the Han themselves in the Gansu region.

From the excellent book The Tarim Mummies, page #281:

"...Narin Infers that they (Caucasians) had been there at least since the Qijia Culture of c. 2,000BC and probably even earlier in the Yangshao Culture of the Neolithic. This would render the Tocharians as virtually native to Gansu (and earlier than the putative spread of the Neolithic to Xinjaing) and Narin goes so far as to argue that the Indo-Europeans themselves originally dispensed from this area westwards."

25 posted on 12/20/2005 1:50:24 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

The movement of the Romans to the Gansu region was a reintroduction.


26 posted on 12/20/2005 3:17:08 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Red Badger
Rodger that.

In the real world,"form follows function", (this applies to systems also). Not to mention "Occham's razor" in design and resource management.

Turns out that the best way to run a long fortification, with the most efficient use of manning troops, is always the same, (given equal technological expertise).

Hadrian's wall was manned the same way the the Great wall was, as were the Roman Limes.

This is just one more "Middle Kingdom" story, meant to show the superiority/seniority of all Chinese, (Han), culture compared to the entire non-Chinese world.

The Chinese and the islamists share the view that they alone have natural rights to worldwide cultural hegemony.

We barbarians, we "gua-why lo" need to know our proper place after all.

So it's important for all free folks to remember,
"Sic SEMPER Tyrannis!"
27 posted on 12/20/2005 3:28:23 PM PST by porkchops 4 mahound ("Si vis pacem, para bellum", If you wish peace, prepare for war.)
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To: blam

If this is true, why don't they ever find any MSG at Roman sites? Why aren't there any fossilized fortune cookies at Hadrian's Wall?


28 posted on 12/20/2005 4:20:47 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Natural Law

While I love a good yarn as much as the next man, the fate of prisoners in ancient times never resulted in a 'prison camp' where all the defeated army was kept together. Too much trouble to maintain them, feed them, etc., not to mention the possibility of an armed uprising.

However, there was a great market for slaves to fill the coffers of the winner (with a little booty for the common soldiers)

On the other hand, some victorius generals simply liked to slaughter the defeated army.


29 posted on 12/20/2005 5:19:33 PM PST by wildbill
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To: wildbill

The routing of an entire Roman army is as much a yarn as anything. A more likely scenario was a deal was cut.


30 posted on 12/20/2005 7:56:19 PM PST by Natural Law
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To: Natural Law

How so? The no army is ever a stranger to defeat and Rome has witnessed many near catastrophic defeats where entire legions were destroyed. Hannibal, Sparticus, Alaric, do the names ring a bell?


31 posted on 12/21/2005 1:13:45 AM PST by cmdjing
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To: AntiGuv
Keep in mind that Chinese archaeology is notorious for misrepresenting history for Chinese propaganda purposes.

"Ah, Scotch! Was inwented by little old lady from St. Petersburg!" --Mr. Chekov to Mr. Scott

32 posted on 12/21/2005 5:41:04 AM PST by Max in Utah (By their works you shall know them.)
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To: 75thOVI; beebuster2000; bert; BJClinton; BlessedByLiberty; brazzaville; canalabamian; chesley; ...
MilHist ping

To all: please ping me to threads that are relevant to the MilHist list (and/or) please add the keyword "MilHist" to the appropriate thread. Thanks in advance.

Please FREEPMAIL indcons if you want on or off the "Military History (MilHist)" ping list.

33 posted on 12/22/2005 3:26:03 AM PST by indcons
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To: Natural Law; cmdjing

Here are significant battles where the Romans lost entire armies in significant battles. The defeat of an "entire Roman army" happened a few times in their otherwise glorious military history:

1) Battle of the Allia
2) Caudine Forks
3) Battle of Cannae
4) Arausio
5) Battle of Carrhae
6) Teutoburg Forest
7) Battle of Adrianople
8) Alaric's Attack on Rome


34 posted on 12/22/2005 3:35:59 AM PST by indcons (FRepmail indcons to join the MilHist ping list)
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To: blam; SunkenCiv
Romans May Have Learned From Chinese Great Wall: Archaeologists

I want to bring to mind that Jerusalem was a cosmopolitan type city like New York or London.

In Jerusalem citizens were referred to as Jews, but they might not be from the tribe of Judah, it like in America we are called Americans, but come from various nations!

In Jerusalem there were folks from the Asia such Chinese, or from Africa, Egyptian, Roamans, Greeks, etc!

This subterranean world would most likely been learn from the Chinese!

Archaeologists Find Ancient Israel Tunnels (used during revolt against Romans 66 to 70 A.D.) Posted by NormsRevenge

Archaeologists in Israel find ancient tunnels from Jewish revolt against Romans

Archaeologists have uncovered underground chambers and tunnels constructed in northern Israel by Jews, for hiding from the Romans during their revolt in A.D. 66-70.

Archaeologists said Monday they have uncovered underground chambers and tunnels constructed in northern Israel by Jews for hiding from the Romans during their revolt in A.D. 66-70.

The Jews laid in supplies and were preparing to hide from the Romans, the experts said. The pits, which are connected to each other by short tunnels, would have served as a concealed subterranean home.

Yardenna Alexandre of the Israel Antiquities Authority said the find shows the ancient Jews planned and prepared for the uprising. This is in contrast to the common perception that the revolt began spontaneously.

"It definitely was not spontaneous," said Alexandre. "The Jews of that time certainly did prepare for it, with underground hideaways here and in other sites we have found."

However, the recent discovery of these underground chambers at the Israeli Arab village of Kfar Kana, north of Nazareth, is unique. All other "hiding refuges" found so far are hewn out of rock. But at Kfar Kana, the settlers built the chambers out of housing materials, and they hid them directly under their floors. They made sure their families had access to the chambers from inside their homes.

"This construction was very well camouflaged inside one of the houses," Alexandre said. "There are three pits under this house and one tunnel leading to another pit. There are 11 storage jars in that pit. This was storage for an emergency situation during the second half of the first century CE, which is well-known for the Great Revolt."

Alexandre describes the chambers as "very attractive." Built like igloos, they are wide at the base and small at the top. The tunnels between them are very short, and the ceilings are too low for standing up.

Zeev Weiss, a professor of archaeology at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said, "I think this is a very important find at Kfar Kana. It can give us more information about life in the Galilee in the first century and the preparations Jews were making on the eve of the revolt." Weiss is director of excavations at Sepphoris, which was the largest city in the Galilee at the time of the revolt.

The Jewish revolt against Roman rule ended in A.D. 70, when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Second Temple.

The Jews at the Kfar site built their houses over the ruins of a fortified Iron Age city, reusing some of the stones from the original settlement. Then they dug through 1.5 meters (five feet) of debris from the ancient ruins to build their hideaway complex. "It was quite a lot of work," Alexandre said.

The original settlement, which dates from the 10th and 9th centuries B.C., is also a new discovery.

Alexandre attributes current dating of the original city as an Iron Age settlement to pottery remains, which are plentiful at the site. The excavators have also found large quantities of animal bones, a scarab depicting a man surrounded by two crocodiles and a ceramic seal bearing the image of a lion.

The excavation of the city's architecture has uncovered fortified walls which still stand 1.5 meters high in some places. "It's magnificent," said Alexandre. "You can walk among them."

35 posted on 03/19/2006 3:29:48 PM PST by restornu (Our blessing flow more when we as a nation murmur less!)
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To: blam

"University of Pecs in Hungary"

I think Gov. Schwartzenegger got his degree there.

Seems like a wall is pretty easy to figure out though. :')


36 posted on 03/19/2006 3:34:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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To: blam
"It is quite obvious to suppose that Rome gained information about China and about their special, complicated structure of frontier defence. Could the idea of the strong limes not come from the well-tried system of China?" Visy added.

Speculation out of thin air. The Roman era is not prehistorical. If the Romans were influenced by the Chinesse they would have wrote about it, and some writings would have been likely to survive.

37 posted on 03/19/2006 3:39:11 PM PST by Plutarch
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To: AntiGuv

While I wholeheartedly agree that there's not likely any connection between the development of walls, the Roman Empire and China had continual trade links, both overland and (more intermittently) by sea, usually by go-betweens, but occasionally directly.


38 posted on 03/19/2006 3:43:48 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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To: indcons

Yeah, the Romans had it goin' on. Unified Scotland with the Persian Gulf (briefly), eliminated Mediterranean piracy for hundreds of years, carried on trade with India...

Emperor Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)
Illustrated History of the Roman Empire | circa 2000 | various
Posted on 10/08/2004 9:55:02 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1239592/posts

Romans in China?
Archaeology | Volume 52 Number 3, May/June 1999 | Erling Hoh
Posted on 07/18/2004 11:43:09 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1173944/posts

Tamil Trade
INTAMM | 1997 | Xavier S. Thani Nayagam
Posted on 09/11/2004 11:07:01 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1213591/posts

The Romans in Ireland
Archaeology Today | 2000? | L.A. Curchin
Posted on 07/18/2004 11:54:58 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1173950/posts


39 posted on 03/19/2006 4:19:14 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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40 posted on 04/11/2006 1:02:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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41 posted on 03/08/2010 8:38:32 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Freedom is Priceless.)
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To: Antoninus

Indeed it was. But then it’s a good idea for a book!
Forgive my years late post...


42 posted on 04/16/2010 8:04:12 AM PDT by Ben Kane (www.benkane.net)
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