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Quantum Trickery: Testing Einstein's Strangest Theory
The New York Times ^ | December 27, 2005 | Dennis Overbye

Posted on 12/28/2005 1:42:38 PM PST by snarks_when_bored

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To: R. Scott

Another big WOW!
I love quantum mechanics – but then again, I never did believe in a classical “reality”. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Is reality really the "one illusion we all share"?


51 posted on 12/28/2005 3:36:21 PM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: Brilliant

bookmark


52 posted on 12/28/2005 3:37:47 PM PST by Mom MD
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To: snarks_when_bored
This bewildering, branching view of 'reality' is called 'the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics' and is the preferred view of 'reality' of many quantum physicists.
I prefer to think of it as more like the evil Mr. Spock on an alternate USS Enterprise in an alternate universe.
There is a universe somewhere where the mainstream media is honest, Saddam was the benevolent ruler of a peaceful country, Bush is an evil moron, and the Democrats aren't all stupid liars. And you thought that the dead/undead cat was weird? Just think of how weird this place would feel to us!

53 posted on 12/28/2005 3:39:49 PM PST by DallasMike (Call me Dallasaurus)
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To: bvw
In as much, as "already" is a meaningful-term QT-wise, the information is "already" at the other place. Or rather, "was" at. Was and is, that is. Or was. So be it.

The real trouble with time travel isn't becoming your own grandfather-that's nothing a broad minded and well adjusted family can't handle. No, the real problem is with tenses. How do you describe something that happened, but didn't happen anymore because you went back to two days before that event to prevent it from happening?
- Douglas Adams (RIP)

54 posted on 12/28/2005 3:40:06 PM PST by ThinkDifferent (I am a leaf on the wind)
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To: RipSawyer
Is reality really the "one illusion we all share"?

That sums up what Socrates is reported to have told Glaucon – what we see as “reality” is only a vague shadow of the True Form.
55 posted on 12/28/2005 3:44:09 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Graymatter
Yes but can an entire cat ever be in the cat state?

You've placed your paw on the problem. Recent work suggests that above a certain level of molecular complexity, decoherence is unavoidable, and decoherence smears out the 'cat state' superpositions.

56 posted on 12/28/2005 4:01:54 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
--- Arthur C. Clark

"When a distinguished and elderly scientist tells you that something is possible, he is almost certainly right.
When a distinguished and elderly scientist tells you that something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong."

-- Arthur C. Clark

Clark was much more than a science fiction writer.
He was a philosopher of science.

So9

57 posted on 12/28/2005 4:02:15 PM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: PatrickHenry

God knows....


58 posted on 12/28/2005 4:02:30 PM PST by onedoug
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To: RipSawyer; R. Scott
Another big WOW!
I love quantum mechanics – but then again, I never did believe in a classical “reality”. >>>>>>>>>>>>

Is reality really the "one illusion we all share"?

Who is this "we" to whom you refer?

So9

59 posted on 12/28/2005 4:05:31 PM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: snarks_when_bored
The article doesn't claim that superluminal communication (in the sense of relativity-violating information transfer) is taking place.

Right, I should have responded to post 19, which initially mentioned faster than light, not yours.

60 posted on 12/28/2005 4:15:16 PM PST by Right Wing Assault ("..this administration is planning a 'Right Wing Assault' on values and ideals.." - John Kerry)
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To: DallasMike

You may be on the way towards proving the impossibility of the 'many-worlds' interpretation...


61 posted on 12/28/2005 4:17:01 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
That's why the water in a bathtubs actually spins in the same direction in both the southern and the northern hemispheres. You just happen to be looking at it from underneath, when you're in the southern hemispheres.
62 posted on 12/28/2005 4:48:27 PM PST by norwaypinesavage
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To: snarks_when_bored

63 posted on 12/28/2005 4:49:19 PM PST by mikrofon (Have spin will travel)
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To: Right Wing Assault

No problem...


64 posted on 12/28/2005 4:52:28 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: RipSawyer
"Is reality really the "one illusion we all share"?"

More like where all our fantasies overlap. But then again, I'm a social studies major, and I'm going to have to retake trig before I can get anywhere even within seeing distance of someplace where I could understand the math...
65 posted on 12/28/2005 4:57:35 PM PST by Old Student (WRM, MSgt, USAF(Ret.))
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To: snarks_when_bored

ping


66 posted on 12/28/2005 5:03:08 PM PST by Bellflower (A new day is Coming!)
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To: snarks_when_bored

The fog comes
on little cat feet.


67 posted on 12/28/2005 5:16:17 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts

I guess that means that the object is really only spinning in one direction, but the observer is observing it from opposite perspectives simultaneously. That means that the object is in a state that is not part of the recognized dimensions and is extra-dimensional for that brief instant in time (or out of time as the case may be).


68 posted on 12/28/2005 5:29:21 PM PST by lafroste (gravity is not a force. See my profile to read my novel absolutely free (I know, beyond shameless))
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To: snarks_when_bored
Did I give you permission to post my picture, Snarks? ;-)
69 posted on 12/28/2005 5:37:41 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: snarks_when_bored

Tough engineering problem for the quantum computer guys. Yeah, the potential for vast amounts of information and speed exists but accessing the information without destroying it is a sticky wicket. Trials and tribulations.


70 posted on 12/28/2005 5:55:20 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: grey_whiskers
Did I give you permission to post my picture, Snarks? ;-)

I have discovered a truly marvelous 'dead cat bounce' joke, but this post is too brief to contain it.

71 posted on 12/28/2005 6:19:17 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: lafroste
That means that the object is in a state that is not part of the recognized dimensions and is extra-dimensional for that brief instant in time (or out of time as the case may be).

Excellent point and explanation.

Hey...it works for me.

72 posted on 12/28/2005 6:20:14 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Crime cannot be tolerated. Criminals thrive on the indulgences of society's understanding.)
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To: Maceman
two diametrically opposed conditions at once, like black and white...

That's grade-school level quantum physics. How about when it black and white AND red all over????

73 posted on 12/28/2005 6:36:35 PM PST by Onelifetogive (* Sarcasm tag ALWAYS required. For some FReepers, sarcasm can NEVER be obvious enough.)
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To: Graymatter; theFIRMbss
Zeno would have loved this stuff.

"Antelope Freeway, one half mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one quarter mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one sixteenth mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one thirty-second mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one sixty-fourth mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one one hundred twenty-eigth mile."
"Antelope Freeway, one two hundred fifty-sixth mile."
...

74 posted on 12/28/2005 6:42:57 PM PST by Erasmus (Getting captivated by modern music leads to Stockhausen Syndrome.)
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To: DallasMike

Once in a while, a wormhole opens and I can pick it up on 1600 AM.


75 posted on 12/28/2005 6:45:29 PM PST by Erasmus (Getting captivated by modern music leads to Stockhausen Syndrome.)
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To: Brilliant
Most of these guys are just capitalizing on the inability of the public (and more importantly, the guys who fund this research) to understand what they are doing, and what it proves or doesn't prove.

I think they do it just to get chix...

76 posted on 12/28/2005 6:52:12 PM PST by Mannaggia l'America
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To: Red Badger

No, but it might be the basis of a really neat way to share one time binary pads and get unbreakable encryption.


77 posted on 12/28/2005 7:02:43 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: DallasMike
I think you are confusing Evil Mr Spock fo Evil Prof Robinson.


78 posted on 12/28/2005 8:33:23 PM PST by Boiler Plate
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To: DallasMike
Read "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" and "Number of the Beast"

In one reality there is a pleasant peaceful America where
they restarted their calendars from the day they lynched
all the lawyers.

79 posted on 12/28/2005 9:16:59 PM PST by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken.)
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To: snarks_when_bored
This fall scientists announced that they had put a half dozen beryllium atoms into a "cat state."

Reportedly the result was a beryllium sphere.


80 posted on 12/28/2005 9:23:09 PM PST by Straight Vermonter (John 6: 31-69)
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks for the ping!


81 posted on 12/28/2005 9:27:46 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Servant of the 9
Who is this "we" to whom you refer?

The overwhelming majority of humanity.
82 posted on 12/29/2005 3:08:24 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: snarks_when_bored
the properties of one particle could instantaneously change the properties of another one

No information transfer channel appears to be involved.

The information channel doesn't exist as a wire or cable or energy transfer across the ether. It appears as though the particular (pun) atom of Be is supposed to spin in a particular way, along with ALL its brethren in this universe. If ANY atom of Be is forced to be different from the others, in any way, the others follow (instantaneously) suit to keep the family together, like they were all permanently connected. One atom in a device in a lab (or communications center) is changed or modulated in such a way as to convey a message. Digital 1's and 0's can be represented as, say, CW and CCW spin. Another atom of the same element, in another place, next door, down the street, across the continent, on the moon or another star system, is monitored for it's direction of spin and decifered. The message is sent and received. Instantaneous communications faster than the speed of light. It doesn't break the rules of Einstein's universe, because there is no travel involved, and hence no time. It's outside the realm of normal light physics, so the rules are different. This is thinking outside the box of Einstein's rules. He was correct, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. And I do mean nothing.............

83 posted on 12/29/2005 5:31:58 AM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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To: The_Reader_David

See my post #83......


84 posted on 12/29/2005 5:35:10 AM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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To: ThinkDifferent
See post #83...........

I'm My Own Grandpa

Lyrics: Dwight Latham, Moe Jaffe

Music: Dwight Latham, Moe Jaffe

Played by Jerry Garcia with David Grisman

Oh, many, many years ago

When I was twenty-three

I was married to a widow

Who was pretty as can be

This widow had a grown-up daughter

Who had hair of red

My father fell in love with her

And soon the two were wed

This made my dad my son-in-law

And changed my very life

For my daughter was my mother

'Cause she was my father's wife

To complicate the matter

Though it really brought me joy

I soon became the father

Of a bouncing baby boy

This little baby then became

A brother-in-law to Dad

And so became my uncle

Though it made me very sad

For if he was my uncle

Then that also made him brother

Of the widow's grown-up daughter

WHo of course is my step-mother

Chorus

I'm my own grandpa

I'm my own grandpa

It sounds funny I know

But it really is so

Oh, I'm my own grandpa

My father's wife then had a son

Who kept them on the run

And he became my grandchild

For he was my daughter's son

My wife is now my mother's mother

And it makes me blue

Because although she is my wife

She's my grandmother too

Now if my wife is my grandmother

Then I'm her grandchild

And every time I think of it

It nearly drives me wild

For now I have become

The strangest case you ever saw

As husband of my grandma

I am my own grandpa

[chorus]

.................

85 posted on 12/29/2005 5:41:01 AM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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To: Straight Vermonter

LOVED Weaver's line:

Computer: No alternaive sphere available

Weaver: We don't have another one

Crewman: Do you have any idea how annoying that is?

Weaver: Look, I have ONE g*ddamn job on this ship, it's a stupid job, but I'm going to do it, okay?


86 posted on 12/29/2005 5:53:23 AM PST by ko_kyi
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To: R. Scott
Who is this "we" to whom you refer?
The overwhelming majority of humanity.

Ohh, them.
They are the observed.
I'm the observer.

So9

87 posted on 12/29/2005 5:57:47 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Servant of the 9
Ohh, them.
They are the observed.
I'm the observer.

Uh…no - to me, you are the observed and I am the observer.
88 posted on 12/29/2005 6:36:45 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Red Badger
Here's a link to the home page of a physics/computer science course that was taught this fall:  Qubits, Quantum Mechanics and Computers

And here's a quote from Lecture 5 (9/13/2005) of that course, a lecture entitled "Entanglement can facilitate information processing" (a PDF file):

Nature is consistent with quantum mechanics and not with local realism, confirming that for the wavefunction

ψ = α |0 + β |1
nothing can be known about the coefficients α, β until a measurement is made.

Entangled pairs of qubits such as

|ψab = (1 ⁄ √2) (|0a1b + |1a0b⟩)
can be used to facilitate sharing or transmission of information, but not to transmit information from A to B directly. I.e., there is no superluminal transfer of information happening in an entangled state. Why not? Because Alice has no control over the result of her measurement and consequently she cannot control what Bob measures either.
One doesn't need to know much about Dirac notation to grasp the general point being made here, I think. Your claim that

[t]he message is sent and received. Instantaneous communications faster than the speed of light.

is wrong if currently understood physics is right.

Best regards...

89 posted on 12/29/2005 8:11:24 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored

All it takes is one experiment (and several millions of dollars).............


90 posted on 12/29/2005 8:14:44 AM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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To: Servant of the 9

I meant to reply to you yesterday...sorry. Those are great Clarke quotes, without question.


91 posted on 12/29/2005 8:16:35 AM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: Warthogtjm

When I read this my nose is both bleeding and not bleeding at the same time.>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am currently both having sex with a beautiful.....oh, forget it.


92 posted on 12/29/2005 1:17:43 PM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: Brilliant
Sure, if you assume that the equations of quantum mechanics are correct, then you are going to get experimental results that seem consistent with them.

Actually that's not true. The world doesn't care whether your equations are correct or not. It is what it is. However if your equations are not correct, sooner or later you'll find a situation where your predictions do not agree with the theory. Then you might be in line for a Nobel prize, if you can come up with a theory that does predict the observed results, while still predicting earlier results that did not conflict with the "old" theory.

93 posted on 12/29/2005 1:17:53 PM PST by El Gato
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To: tet68
Sooooo, if a cat dies in a box and there's no one to see it, it's still alive?

No, you just don't know which it is, and since you don't know, it might as well be both alive and dead. Until you open the box and the probability wave collapses. The the cat will be alive or dead, but not both.

94 posted on 12/29/2005 1:19:44 PM PST by El Gato
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To: snarks_when_bored; Alamo-Girl
[ These atoms were each spinning clockwise and counterclockwise at the same time. ]

UnLikely story.. Obviously a story from a democrat.. who believe in such things..

"We contend that for a nation(democrats) to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." ~Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

95 posted on 12/29/2005 1:31:01 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: El Gato

Sooooo, if a cat dies in a box and there's no one to see it, it's still alive?

No, you just don't know which it is, and since you don't know, it might as well be both alive and dead.

But the cat knows?


96 posted on 12/29/2005 1:32:35 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: hosepipe

(laughing)


97 posted on 12/29/2005 1:33:48 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: bkepley

"So has anyone confirmed yet that the cat is both dead and alive? I wonder what it would be like."




Just ask Alan Colmes.


98 posted on 12/29/2005 1:43:45 PM PST by HighWheeler (RATS hero is an impeached, dis-barred, lying, perjuring, cheating, lazy, cowardly sexual predator)
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To: Red Badger
One atom in a device in a lab (or communications center) is changed or modulated in such a way as to convey a message. Digital 1's and 0's can be represented as, say, CW and CCW spin. Another atom of the same element, in another place, next door, down the street, across the continent, on the moon or another star system, is monitored for it's direction of spin and decifered. The message is sent and received. Instantaneous communications faster than the speed of light.

The passage that I quoted in my earlier post to you (#89) states why this won't work: "...Alice has no control over the result of her measurement and consequently she cannot control what Bob measures either." The outcome of the change or modulation of which you speak (by which I take it that you mean 'measurement') will have a range of possible values (corresponding to eigenvalues of the Hermitian operator representing the quantum observable being measured), but which specific value is found during any single measurement is a matter of chance and cannot be controlled by the experimenter (i.e., Alice). So no determinate message could be 'sent' to Bob by way of entanglement relations.

99 posted on 12/29/2005 1:45:19 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored

If you say so.........but it spins.......


100 posted on 12/29/2005 1:48:01 PM PST by Red Badger (And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him)
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