Posted on 12/30/2005 2:03:32 PM PST by SmithL
Even your understanding of inflation is wrong - none of what you propose causes inflation.
Finally, it is, again, none of the government's business what I agree to work for. As a British person, I understand there is zero appreciation for property rights and the relationship between property rights and economic prosperity.
ALL of this talk of Phillips curves and multipliers is academic masturbation fantasy that leads someone to somehow justify a 'managed' economy.
"The entire premise of your economic education is broken."
Oh get over yourself. I was trained in both Keynesian and Monetrist economics. The multiplier is an accepted tennant in both.
"Even your understanding of inflation is wrong - none of what you propose causes inflation."
Introducing more money to the economy to be spent rather than saved is potentially inflationary. Though as I point out the sums involved are healthy rather than harmful.
"multipliers is academic masturbation fantasy that leads someone to somehow justify a 'managed' economy."
You live in a 'managed economy'. As long as the market wont provide an army, streetlighting, police or judiciary there will always be a level of management in the economy. Adam's guiding hand is with us to stay, and unless we want to end up in a dickensian nightmare then that is fair enough.
There is going to be no economic disaster from raising the minimum wage, against both our instincts, the experience of introducing it (at a higher level) in the UK has been OK.
No, that isn't your experience. If you knew so much about economics you would be familiar with the term 'ceteris paribus.' In the US each minimum wage increase has increased youth unemployment and shut down small businesses. I worked for one such business.
And no, none of it causes inflation - only one thing causes inflation - monetary policy. Because you were 'trained' in economics suggest you probably have some very bad ideas about how economics works in practice and also is a source of both yours and the governments arrogance in interfering with capitalism.
If anything, the minimum wage here has created a HUGE black market of illegals and young people and others not paying taxes by taking payments off the record for their work. You see - you can't actually 'manage' anything except to make things worse. It's probably the same in the UK and anywhere else when the government tries to run people's pocket books.
"No, that isn't your experience."
Yes. It is. Every prediction we Conservatives made about the doom that would follow the Labour party's introduction of the minimum wage has proved way off the mark. The left wing press has had a field day pointing this out. So we either pretend reality isn't reality (and to use your term theoretically masturbate) - or look at the reasons why the forecasts were wrong.
"Because you were 'trained' in economics suggest you probably have some very bad ideas about how economics works in practice and also is a source of both yours and the governments arrogance in interfering with capitalism."
I'm laughing my backside off at you here. The very idea that I am not a capitalist!
"If anything, the minimum wage here has created a HUGE black market of illegals and young people and others not paying taxes by taking payments off the record for their work. "
That I agree with. I wish that our government had the balls to address the issue of illegals.
" If you knew so much about economics you would be familiar with the term 'ceteris paribus.'"
Other things being equal? That's rather the point when you get in the real world and away from the text books. Other things in the real world just never are equal.
But you are saying that the minimum wage in the UK did not have an ill effect. I am saying, so you can understand, that it definitly did have a net negative effect, and that the success of the British economy (by European standards, of course) does not negate this fact. You are being either obtuse or disingenous by saying "WHEEELLL you know CP DOESNT EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD, YOU KNOW." Don't jerk me around - you know exactly what I mean. See my example earlier regarding hurricaines.
And it's not just illegals who participate in the black market, it is almost everyone who is at the bottom rung of the ladder who is lured to take a job that pays something, if illegally, rather than nothing. And then there are even constructs that work to get around the minimum wage - internships, for example.
I presume you also support hoodlums breaking windows because apparently that produces economic stimulus too according to crackpot academics, right?
"But you are saying that the minimum wage in the UK did not have an ill effect."
No I am not. I was saying that the harm caused was not as bad as we predicted.
Some people lost jobs. Not as many as predicted.
For those people living at the pitts of society, your burger pickers, fruit pickers, child minders etc. the minimum wage is clearly a good thing.
We have low unemployment here, so most of those who lost jobs in bad business that couldn't afford the minimum wage now have new jobs that pay the minimum wage and are therefore better off. There will be exceptions to this of course, but on balance, I now accept that the at worst the effect was neutral and at best it was positive.
I take your point that the illegal's willingness to work for less than the minimum wage continues to prop up some of these borderline businesses and removes tax revenue, whilst introducing unfair competition against those who follow the legislation. However, the level of pain caused by this again seems less than predicted and in any case could be resolved with more robust law enforcement.
"You are being either obtuse or disingenous by saying "WHEEELLL you know CP DOESNT EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD, YOU KNOW." "
I am being factual. So long as we live in a world without a single global economic market, without a single currency, with nation states who subsidise or block trade, with humans with corruptive instincts, with the need to provide street lighting, with the need to provide for common defence, where people practice nepotism and cronyism, where some governments still have nationalised industries - then applying the precursar that other things be equal to describe a given economic behaviour may score marks in an exam paper, but not in real world economic day to day application.
"Your one-note assault on Arnold, completely in denial of reality that it's Arnold or an extreme Democrat next year, I believe you'd rather have any of those folks in the governorship than another second of Arnold. That's not rational!"
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Excellent post.
Thanks for stepping in and pointing out the truth -- again.
Unfortunately the Dem promoters, masquarading as "pure conservatives" don't want to allow the truth to be heard and their disinformation campaign disrupted.
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California can not afford 4 more years of aRnie... time for a real conservative , heck even a real republican would be nice, this socialist in the guise of a moderate needs to be sent packing. California has survived dems for years, not sure if we can afford 4 more years of a Trojan Horse masquerading as a photo pony hauling kiddies around and trying to act harmless.
His budgets alone speak volumes. Can hardly wait for his next one, and the bonds bonds bonds he is ready to unoad on the populace as well and sell it as responsible gubamint.
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