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Revote today [Dover, PA school board]
York Daily Record [Penna] ^ | 03 January 2006 | TOM JOYCE

Posted on 01/03/2006 12:12:37 PM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; marron; hosepipe; PatrickHenry
You characterize the crux of the trial as a nefarious conspiracy of devious Christians trying to smuggle God and religion into the public schools. Which is to accuse Christians of amazing bad faith, of lying about their true purposes, etc. Do you really think that is a warranted assessment?

In a word, yes. FWIW, I simply saw this thing as a First Amendment -- free speech, not freedom of religion -- issue.

No argument there. But the case outcome did have precendent that supported the decision. What I or you may personally believe and what is case law are two different things.

Certainly you would think American citizens ought to have some awareness of how "Nature's God" fit into the philosophy of the Framers, and got written into the DoI -- which is the set-up to both the Preamble and the Constitution itself. The historical fact is American culture is profoundly Christian -- and still is, believe it or not.

At the time of the Framers, most people learned these things in church, where those who have made a lifetime of devotion and study are the teachers. Not those in a secular world.

You are trying to frame the argument on the merits of ID and the fight against what many are referring to Darwinian materialism. That was not what this case was about. That's also what the Discovery Institute is also trying to do. And the Trojan Horse I mention, while not in their materials spelled out as such, is contained in their wedge document.

God created us, the universe and all the living things and seas. But there is also scientific evidence that shows things are also a bit more complex than just "six days of poof". Some of the Darwinian theory tries to explain that. A lot of it falls into known scientific evidence. Some doesn't. And a lot remains unanswered.

But the fact remains, that ID is the Trojan Horse to move the Creation Theory back into our schools. It's almost as bad as Peter when he denied God three times. ID does the same.

For that, I'm dismayed in my fellow believers.

501 posted on 01/04/2006 11:33:46 AM PST by joesbucks
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

#####I don't know of any teacher's talking about parallel universes either. I do think that the scientific establishment WOULD be upset if parallel universes were discussed as accepted science.#####


I never said anything about accepted science. Just a discussion of parallel universes as a possibility. No one would object to that. But a designer as a possibility would be forbidden.



502 posted on 01/04/2006 11:33:57 AM PST by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: betty boop; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl
[ Do you suppose the world, the universe, consists only of things which can be measured, coyoteman? ]

i.e. if you can't measure it, it don't exist..

Interesting concept.. The Shultz syndrome.. "I see nothing, know nothing, do NOTHING".. when it comes to things I don't know and can't prove, exists.. LoL..

503 posted on 01/04/2006 11:34:02 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: puroresu
So would a high school science teacher be doing his career a favor if he introduced his class to the scientific evidence for gender differences in spatial ability? Would any public school teacher in America dare such a thing?

The question is why would this be relevant at the high school level. Would it be part of a general discussion of group differences?

504 posted on 01/04/2006 11:35:42 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: puroresu

So your answer to the left's PC is to insert your own?

Your PC isn't any better than theirs. Better to eliminate PC entirely.


505 posted on 01/04/2006 11:36:33 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: puroresu
So the differences aren't real?

I can't imagine how you derived this conclusion from what I wrote.

506 posted on 01/04/2006 11:36:53 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: puroresu
" No one would object to that. But a designer as a possibility would be forbidden."

Parallel universes is scientific speculation, though I doubt very seriously if most scientists would think it should be discussed in a classroom. The Designer is a theological speculation.
507 posted on 01/04/2006 11:37:14 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Gumlegs

Actually, there are 10 kinds of people: those who read binary and those who don't.


508 posted on 01/04/2006 11:39:55 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: puroresu
But if a Christian steps up and merely says, hey, science doesn't have all the answers.

I know of no scientist in their right mind who would make that claim. There is indeed a large void in our knowledge. The void is filled either with the supernatural or the undiscovered or both. But to say that science can discern between the the supernatural & undiscovered is dishonest. Such things lie outside the province of science and, while they make for interesting conversation, don't belong in a science curriculum.

If it ain't testable, it ain't science.

509 posted on 01/04/2006 11:43:03 AM PST by Quark2005 (Divination is NOT science.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

####Parallel universes is scientific speculation, though I doubt very seriously if most scientists would think it should be discussed in a classroom. The Designer is a theological speculation.####


How is discussion of a parallel universe scientific if it such a universe can't be observed, measured, falsified, etc., by the standards you fellows have set up for science to follow?

Personally, I don't think much time should be spent on discussing parallel universes, but it wouldn't bother me if they were discussed a little. Nor do I think much time needs to be spent on discussing a possible designer, but I see no reason to forbid it.


510 posted on 01/04/2006 11:44:17 AM PST by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: betty boop
Thank you so much for that excellent post!

Indeed, there are two separate issues involved. On the one hand, the intelligent design movement seeks to remove methodological naturalism as a presupposition.

On the other hand is the intelligent design hypothesis which must stand or fall on its own merits: that certain features of the universe and life are best explained by intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.

The issue of motive of the supporters (on any side) is a legal sidebar. And as you have so clearly explained - whether in law, policy or education - one can speak of God and yet neither promote nor establish a religion.

In the end, the Supreme Court will clean up the mess it created with the Lemon decision.

511 posted on 01/04/2006 11:44:35 AM PST by Alamo-Girl (Monthly is the best way to donate to Free Republic!)
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To: js1138

#####The question is why would this be relevant at the high school level. Would it be part of a general discussion of group differences?#####


It wouldn't be discussed at all. It's generally forbidden. If it can't be discussed at Harvard how can it be discussed in Public School #32?


512 posted on 01/04/2006 11:46:59 AM PST by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: Junior
I don't recall any "indoctrination." Please provide some examples.

I think my claim is evidenced by the fact that there is an enormous bulwark against teaching anything contrary to evolution in the public schools.

513 posted on 01/04/2006 11:48:46 AM PST by Zack Nguyen
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
God still can't be observed, directly or indirectly.

How do you know?

514 posted on 01/04/2006 11:48:57 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
But when I use the word "intelligence" in the context of this discussion I mean the capacity to acquire and apply knowledge; the faculty of thought and reason. As such, intelligence may be considered as necessary for producing objects that are designed and purposeful.

Let us assume all the above is true. Given that there is no objective measure for "design" and "purpose", as established previously and demonstrable mathematically, of what use is your definition in demonstrating intelligent design?

Remember, just because P implies Q does not make the assertion that Q implies P a valid construction. Elementary first-order logic.

515 posted on 01/04/2006 11:49:11 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: puroresu
"How is discussion of a parallel universe scientific if it such a universe can't be observed, measured, falsified, etc., by the standards you fellows have set up for science to follow?"

Ok, fine. As I already said, I don't think parallel universes should be taught. You are the one obsessed with them, when I know of nobody pushing to have them taught.

"Nor do I think much time needs to be spent on discussing a possible designer, but I see no reason to forbid it. "

It's a theological speculation. It belongs in a science classroom just as much as speculations about Xenu do. What you're saying is, if crap science has been introduced into the classroom before, lets let some more crap science in. This is nutty.
516 posted on 01/04/2006 11:49:36 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: highball

#####So your answer to the left's PC is to insert your own?#####


No, I'm not for censoring science at all. But there are leftist groups who are, and who get away with it.


####Your PC isn't any better than theirs.#####


If I had any PC, I'd agree.


#####Better to eliminate PC entirely.#####


Agreed.



517 posted on 01/04/2006 11:50:10 AM PST by puroresu (Conservatism is an observation; Liberalism is an ideology)
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To: betty boop
How would we go about "measuring" you, for instance?

Indeed - a mere description doesn't cut the mustard. It's not a matter of what he looks like, but what he "is".

And how do we measure pain/pleasure, love/hate, joy/sorrow just to name a few qualia?

518 posted on 01/04/2006 11:50:17 AM PST by Alamo-Girl (Monthly is the best way to donate to Free Republic!)
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To: Fester Chugabrew

"How do you know?"

Because God can't be observed, directly or indirectly. :)


519 posted on 01/04/2006 11:50:36 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Alamo-Girl
And how do we measure pain/pleasure, love/hate, joy/sorrow just to name a few qualia?

All qualia are grounded in physical, measurable phenomona. How directly and precisely one measures it is a function of technical capability.

520 posted on 01/04/2006 11:54:39 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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