It's the Demography, Stupid The real reason the West is in danger of extinction.

Wall Street Journal ^ | Jan. 4 | BY MARK STEYN

[Bushwacker777]

"The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it. Post-Christian hyperrationalism is, in the objective sense, a lot less rational than Catholicism or Mormonism. Indeed, in its reliance on immigration to ensure its future, the European Union has adopted a 21st-century variation on the strategy of the Shakers, who were forbidden from reproducing and thus could increase their numbers only by conversion. The problem is that secondary-impulse societies mistake their weaknesses for strengths--or, at any rate, virtues--and that's why they're proving so feeble at dealing with a primal force like Islam. "

[jigsaw]

That's the wonderful thing about multiculturalism: You can
choose which side of the war you want to fight on. When the
draft card arrives, just tick "home team" or "enemy,"
according to taste.

Steyn's first name should be 'Ein'.   He is such a great writer.

[redgolum]

GREAT article.

We, as a people, have decided to go the way of Rome. At least in America we are being replaced by other Christians.

[JamesP81]

By 2050, there will be 100 million fewer Europeans, 100 million more Americans--and mostly red-state Americans.

If we can hold out that long, this bodes well for America's future.

[goldstategop]

It turns out Oswald Spengler was prophetic after all. He was off the mark by a century. The West is in decline. And liberals gallivant about as if they have all the time in the world even as it burns down around them. They still want the freedom to abort themselves enmasse, even though it leaves them with no future. Its not just Europe that is dying, it is liberalism that is terminally exhausted. All you have to do is look at the geriatric set leading the movement to gain an appreciation of its bleak prospects. Decline is all around us and the elites still worry about things that don't need worrying. As Mark Steyn right says: "Its the demography, stupid." Having more children matters.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

[StatenIsland]

Wonderful article. Thank you for posting it.

So dead-on logical that it was like a breath of fresh air and a call to arms at the same time - pity it's not going to make a bit of difference.

As he said, we, as a culture, are slowly and inexorably walking off a cliff. Too many are content to remain blissfully asleep - though some day they will awaken to the horrors of sharia.

[SalukiLawyer]

I don't know if old Oswald was off at all, even in timing. We've been watching the last gasps of his "Faustian" culture for many years. And he said that the coup de grace is delivered by a more vigorous but less developed culture that will use the technology we gave them against us.

Oswald Spengler is not an easy read, but boy, can you mine chunks of gold from him.

[goldstategop]

Like Harry Reid crowing about how he killed the Patriot Act. Talk about denial writ small. These people really do live in their own dream world. They'll notice the larger picture only when its too late to mend their ways.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

[enviros_kill]

Great article-needs to be relayed to friends and relatives in the Red States-especially those of child-bearing age.
Excerpts I will include in my forwarding e-mail for those who don't take the time to read the article:

EXCELLENT article by Mark Steyn that sounds a permanent Def Con 2 (Homeland Security ORANGE) alarm for Western civilization. Implicates the greenie religion (worrying about the wrong-and stupid-things) as one of the causes for this dire situation.
Excerpts:
On the contrary, one of the clearest signs of our decline is the way we expend so much energy worrying about the wrong things. . . .
One way "societies choose to fail or succeed" is by choosing what to worry about. The Western world has delivered more wealth and more comfort to more of its citizens than any other civilization in history, and in return we've developed a great cult of worrying. You know the classics of the genre: In 1968, in his bestselling book "The Population Bomb," the eminent scientist Paul Ehrlich declared: "In the 1970s the world will undergo famines--hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death." In 1972, in their landmark study "The Limits to Growth," the Club of Rome announced that the world would run out of gold by 1981, of mercury by 1985, tin by 1987, zinc by 1990, petroleum by 1992, and copper, lead and gas by 1993.
None of these things happened. In fact, quite the opposite is happening. We're pretty much awash in resources, but we're running out of people--the one truly indispensable resource, without which none of the others matter. Russia's the most obvious example: it's the largest country on earth, it's full of natural resources, and yet it's dying--its population is falling calamitously.

The default mode of our elites is that anything that happens--from terrorism to tsunamis--can be understood only as deriving from the perniciousness of Western civilization. As Jean-Francois Revel wrote, "Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself." . . .

There will be no environmental doomsday. Oil, carbon dioxide emissions, deforestation: none of these things is worth worrying about. What's worrying is that we spend so much time worrying about things that aren't worth worrying about that we don't worry about the things we should be worrying about. For 30 years, we've had endless wake-up calls for things that aren't worth waking up for. But for the very real, remorseless shifts in our society--the ones truly jeopardizing our future--we're sound asleep. The world is changing dramatically right now, and hysterical experts twitter about a hypothetical decrease in the Antarctic krill that might conceivably possibly happen so far down the road there are unlikely to be any Italian or Japanese enviro-worriers left alive to be devastated by it. . .

There is no "population bomb." There never was. Birthrates are declining all over the world--eventually every couple on the planet may decide to opt for the Western yuppie model of one designer baby at the age of 39. But demographics is a game of last man standing. The groups that succumb to demographic apathy last will have a huge advantage. Even in 1968 Paul Ehrlich and his ilk should have understood that their so-called population explosion was really a massive population adjustment. Of the increase in global population between 1970 and 2000, the developed world accounted for under 9% of it, while the Muslim world accounted for 26%. Between 1970 and 2000, the developed world declined from just under 30% of the world's population to just over 20%, the Muslim nations increased from about 15% to 20%. . . .

By prioritizing a "woman's right to choose," Western women are delivering their societies into the hands of fellows far more patriarchal than a 1950s sitcom dad. . . .
But it's not about race, it's about culture. If 100% of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy, it doesn't matter whether 70% of them are "white" or only 5% are. But if one part of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy and the other doesn't, then it becomes a matter of great importance whether the part that does is 90% of the population or only 60%, 50%, 45%. . . .

According to a poll taken in 2004, over 60% of British Muslims want to live under Shariah--in the United Kingdom. If a population "at odds with the modern world" is the fastest-breeding group on the planet--if there are more Muslim nations, more fundamentalist Muslims within those nations, more and more Muslims within non-Muslim nations, and more and more Muslims represented in more and more transnational institutions--how safe a bet is the survival of the "modern world"? . . .

We are living through a remarkable period: the self-extinction of the races who, for good or ill, shaped the modern world.

[aquila48]

Steyn is a superb wordsmith... but even more importantly he's such a great thinker.

We're so lucky to have people like him and Rush on our side - perhaps their wakeup calls may yet save us.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Having more children matters.

My #4 is in the cooker. If only others would do their part!

[ForGod'sSake]

Hey Pokey, aren't you the Steyn "pinger"? An excellent read as usual.

[Travis McGee]

Anybody interested in the demographic "Death of the West" should also read Pat Buchanan's book by that name. It's in every library, won't cost a dime.

[Sir Gawain]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;s=demography

[ForGod'sSake]

Anybody interested in the demographic "Death of the West" should also read Pat Buchanan's book by that name.

I've been meaning to get my hands on it one way or another; your advice may light a bigger fire under my butt. Thanks.

FGS

[the anti-liberal]

Many know Dick Lamm as the former Governor of Colorado. In that context his thoughts are particularly poignant. Recently there was an immigration-overpopulation conference in Washington, DC, filled to capacity by many of American's finest minds and leaders. A brilliant college professor named Victor Hansen Davis talked about his latest book, "Mexifornia," explaining how immigration - both legal and illegal was destroying the entire state of California. He said it would march across the country until it destroyed all vestiges of The American Dream.

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm stood up and gave a stunning speech on how to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound as he described eight methods for the destruction of the United States. He said, "If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

1. "Here is how they do it," Lamm said: "Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.

"The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

2. Lamm went on: "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

3. "We could make the United States an 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: 'The apparent success of our own multi-ethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.'"

4. Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

5. "Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

6. "My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

7. "My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other."

"A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to over come two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- >From many, one. In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'unum,' we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

8. "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate."

"Having made America a bilingual/bi-cultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

9. In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book Mexifornia. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.'

American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America - take note of California and other states - to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength."

Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. If we don't get this immigration monster stopped within three years, it will rage like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially The American Dream.

[guitfiddlist]

I've bookmarked this piece for continual reference in the future. Steyn is an absolute genius in laying out the unarguable trends that lay before us, but that few want to take to the end, because of what lays there. This piece is far beyond the usual gems that Steyn lays before us, which are full of knife-edged wit to skewer the liberal idiocies we have to swim in. Not this piece. The subject is too serious and stark in its implications.

I was struck by the complacency of family and friends during my Christmas trip back to the US - around Steyn's current stomping grounds - New Hampshire. Everything is going fine - million dollar houses, kids planning to go to college at $300,000 apiece to study art, or whatever. No discussion of world events - maybe because of the inevitable arguments they'd engender, but I get the impression that none of them are really aware of these REAL and very profound demographic changes happening under their disinterested noses.

Most of family and friends are fully progressive, feminized, multicultural, diversity-enabled blah blah blah - and one of the things pointed out by Steyn is the nearly suicidal stupidity it takes to be so tolerant of diversity that one encourages the embrace of a group so intolerant that it will rape and kill the very idiots that enable them to get in a position to do so. Their "enlightened" attitudes concerning homosexuality and feminazism would make them Ground Zero for the local Sharia enforcement brigades. The rest of us would at least have the common sense to shutup about tolerance of every depravity as we fumble around for a shotgun.

But maybe we do have a plan. Perhaps if we stuff our country full of unassimilating, uneducated, hostile, illegal third-world hispanics - they can fight off the Sharia goons that manage to shove their way in here. After all, there's only so much tax-paid largesse to loot. Rome paid mercenaries to fight off their external enemies, but maybe the White House is one step smarter than that. We get an internal brownshirt force (at low wages!) to bully anybody spouting off about Sharia law, since we lack the courage to do so ourselves.

So buzz off Europe. Our illegals are marginally less hostile than yours. Neener-neener.

[Travis McGee]

No problem.

[ForGod'sSake]

I reposted as a thread within the last few minutes. For some reason(s), I think it might get yanked. We'll see. Thanks for posting yours.

[MrNatural]

..Anybody interested in the demographic "Death of the West" ..

Although he uses the phrase "Western Civilization", Steyn seems more focused on the end of Europe. In that area I pretty much agree with his conclusions and predictions, except I think it will all come sooner, since I think the number of Mulsims in Europe is consistently underestimated, and they don't need a working majority to start raising hell and demanding things that the EU governments can't give.

I believe all the Western European countries fall into the above pattern: i.e., it's worse than they are willing to admit. But the Old World will have one final bequest to the New; the spectacle of its death throes. At some point, major elements of the indigenous populations will dig in and fight. What the details of the struggle will be .. who knows? But, if we do not intervene in strength, it will be protracted and bloody; there will be battles in the cities, bloody victories and bloody defeats, desperate final defenses finally overwhelmed, with gruesome results for any survivors; there will be waves of terrified refugees with horrific stories of muslim atrocities. The current political correctness about the true nature of islam will be swept away, and islam will become firmly connected in the public mind with vicious barbarism, savage religious intolerance and oppression of every kind.

10 years ago, few Americans thought that illegal immigration was a big deal. That changed, as the effects became manifest everywhere in the country, and now it's an issue that public opinion has forced into the open. The inexplicable political correctness of government officials (does Vicente Fox have pictures of George Bush with farm animals, or what?) has been broken through by the only thing that could do it, the strong and strengthening opinion of the voters that illegal immigration is a Very Bad Thing. GW is still mumbling occasionally about his "guest worker" (= amnesty) program, but everyone knows that's not going anywhere.

So I think it will happen with public opinion regarding islam . There will be a period of time that future historians may call the Islamic-European War, within which a date or event may be selected which they will decide marked the Fall of Europe. When that period is over, there will be no doubt in the minds of a large majority of those in the remaining West that Islam, inherently, is incompatible with our ideas of civilization.

Where we go from there, what kind of responses we make to Eurabia, and to islam within the US, is anyone's guess. Certainly there will be strong support for discontinuing any immigration by muslims, and even for subjecting US citzens who are muslim to very high levels of scrutiny for any hint of subversive activity. There will still be those ("not justifying what the muslims have done, mind you") wringing their hands about "religious intolerance" .. like the poor, they are always with us.

But in the end I think Lincoln's view will prevail, that "the US Constitution is not a suicide pact".

Europe, though ... I don't think they'll admit to having a problem they can't handle, and call on us for help, until it's too late for any help to be of use.

[toomanygrasshoppers]

I read "Death of the West" and agree that it is worth the read.

[ForGod'sSake]

I don't think they'll admit to having a problem they can't handle, and call on us for help, until it's too late for any help to be of use.

They WILL call and we WILL go and we WILL win because I suspect we have some wonderful new toys on the shelf. Candya$$es Commie lovers should learn to take care of themselves.

The alliances could get interesting though...

FGS

[MrNatural]

Well, I don't want to be too pessimistic; it's possible that they will call on us before the Louvre is burned down and the Cathedral Notre Dame is torn down to make room for the Grand Mosque of Paris. I've been to Europe. Still a lot of good people there that aren't going to deserve what's about to happen.

I hope they call on us, and I hope we are not too bogged down with other problems to answer the call.

[ForGod'sSake]

I hope they call on us, and I hope we are not too bogged down with other problems to answer the call.

Tough duty being a big brother. And something else, it distresses me some and even gives me a case of heartburn that we would be defending what we were fighting against some 60 years ago; that is, socialism/communism. Whoda thunkit?

On the flipside though, what if we just sit back and let things develop on their own. What's the worst that could happen?

[ForGod'sSake]

Nice mini rant ;' )

[MrNatural]

..What's the worst that could happen? ..

7th Century barbarians in control of France's 21st Century atomic arsenal and delivery systems?

[ForGod'sSake]

7th Century barbarians in control of France's 21st Century atomic arsenal and delivery systems?

Egon: Don't cross the streams.
Venkman: Why?
Egon: It would be bad.
Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good-bad thing. Whattya mean "bad?"

Point MrN

FGS

[Travis McGee]

Notre Dame's spires will be minarets issuing forth the call to prayer in 30 years.

[Baraonda]

"It's the Demography, Stupid The real reason the West is in danger of extinction."

Demographic has critical consequences.

[Mmmike]

In present conditions, it will not be easy to band together in a time of crisis and answer the call.

With school in the way, America's youth are and will remain subject to a thorough deracination from the culture that is their birthright. School is designed to flatten the human personality through indoctrination in leveling ideologies like unqualified tolerance and working together in randomly-assigned groups under a uniform schedule. The aim is to make possible the generic, predictable workforce that befits the modern economy and its attendant bureaucracies.

[Landru]

"Candya$$es Commie lovers should learn to take care of themselves."

But they are.
Doing quite well, in fact.
From what I can see in academia, government & society in general they're all doing fine.
Hellova lot better than me & with none of the worry or angst, too.

"The alliances could get interesting though..."

I doubt it.
"Predictable" yes, but "interesting" no.
More like "banal", if anything.
"Appeasement" is the only word one need become intimately familiar with as we'll be hearing allot of it in the years to come.
Not a lot left anymore to "preserve" or "protect", y'know.

"Well, I don't want to be too pessimistic..."

:o)

Given your comments above I found that particular disclaimer, "interesting"?
Glad you said it though, was just about to slit my wrists.
Now I can relax, put away the straight razor for another time. {g}

"...it's possible that they will call on us before the Louvre is burned down and the Cathedral Notre Dame is torn down to make room for the Grand Mosque of Paris."

Has it occurred to anyone the huge influx of African & Asian Muslims to the European continent might just have the effect of their "taking over" much in the same way Mexicans (~or the Irish, for that matter) have/did here?
That is to say, legally?

They got the numbers, they get representation & the army.
*Voila'*!
Beaten at our own game & by the very words our forefathers penned.

Native born "Europeans" slowly become [the] "outsiders".
Just like *here*!
See?
What makes for an "outlaw" is that they're not "in", eh? ;^)

Be nothing any of us can and/or will do about it, either.
Don't y'all think decided steps would've been taken by now if it were to happen, a'tall?
Well I do, and I don't "see" anything.

Only if all the "good people" finally band together & agree, "We're on the same side, so let's stamp 'em ALL out!" w/could policies be implemented that'd "protect" and "preserve" what's being described, here.
Herding cats would be infinitely easier.
Surely if we've learned nothing else, we did learn that over all the years.

"I've been to Europe."

I've been to America, born there too.
Can honestly say it isn't "my" America now so I'd recommend native born Europeans get used to it.
Really. ;^)

"Still a lot of good people there that aren't going to deserve what's about to happen."

This predicting the future stuff's, at best, tricky.
So rarely do things go the way we think, it could be honestly be said never.
In any event we all get precisely what we deserve, no more & no less, regardless which side of the pond we live.

"I hope they call on us..."

I don't.
If the euros are at this time in the process of sowing seeds we profess to know they'll one day regret, be forced to harvest?
Why would any sane person wish for us to intervene with their richly deserved fate?
Just nuts.

And please don't tell me they'll "capture" the euros' nukes.
If humanity is destined to obliterate itself then I'd just as soon it be sooner rather than later, myself.
Most of my life has been lived under the Red threat (whatwith their thousands of nukes) & frankly I'm at this stage of my life pretty GD'd sick of living under a cloud of fear.

Truth is?
No one gives a damn what we [the people] have to say and by now isn't that painfully obvious to all.

For me the toughest part to accept from all this insanity is quite the reality, "Knowin's not controllin'".

...that's my challenge.

[FBD]

good post, Lan.

>"Knowin's not controllin'"<

Yes-sir, and over this last year, I finally learned what that expression was all about...it took me long enough, huh?

[ForGod'sSake]

From what I can see in academia, government & society in general they're all doing fine. Hellova lot better than me & with none of the worry or angst, too.

Ain't it the truth. Freedom and liberty are not for the faint of heart. That eternal vigilance thing is something I fear yer average euro-weenie is not all that excited about. Maybe everybody that really liked the idea came over here ;^)

Not a lot left anymore to "preserve" or "protect", y'know.

Ugh; right again. The question of course is, can we recover most or even some of what we've lost? We won't know unless we try. Giving up is not an option; you've said so yourself.

Has it occurred to anyone the huge influx of African & Asian Muslims to the European continent might just have the effect of their "taking over" much in the same way Mexicans (~or the Irish, for that matter) have/did here? That is to say, legally?

Can't speak for euro immigration policies/laws etc, but calling the influx of Mexican, and Central and South American immigration especially "legal" is a stretch. The illegals probably outnumber the legals 10 to 1? "We the people" are foursquare against this invasion, but our government and corporate handlers apparently know better.

Why would any sane person wish for us to intervene with their richly deserved fate?

A question I'm sure will be hotly debated in the not too distant future; maybe our lifetimes? How much input we, the sovereign people of the United States, will have is something that's debatable now. From where I sit, I agree with you, what we have to say about it, if anything, will likely go unheeded. We should begin rattling our sabers, or what's left of 'em.

My 2¢

[Landru]

"Yes-sir, and over this last year, I finally learned what that expression was all about..."

Good news, if you were to ask me.

"...it took me long enough, huh?"

It only took you a year, another a lifetime & most never.

....you're wayyyyyyy ahead of the curve, my friend. ;^)

[Landru]

>From what I can see in academia, government & society in general they're all doing fine. Hellova lot better than me & with none of the worry or angst, too.
"Ain't it the truth."

Darned right it's the truth.
Hell's bells FGS, the assholes have done everything in their power to see to it the demonic "racist", "homophobic", "bigot" white males (like us who've clearly won life's lottery) would get more "in touch" with themselves.
All for the express purpose of *seeing* what we, our fathers & their fathers have done to the poor downtrodden, OK?
Well I have.
And that's how it adds up to me.

"Freedom and liberty are not for the faint of heart."

Neither is growin' old.
And Republics last only as long as they can be kept.

"That eternal vigilance thing is something I fear yer average euro-weenie is not all that excited about."

Yea well it ain't just the euro-weenies, it's "us" right here too.

"Maybe everybody that really liked the idea came over here"

Maybe.
I assure you they've been dead for some time, though.
So long have they been gone their children's children's children have forgotten what it is they risked, had to gain *or* lose.
In the final analysis what's left today is what'cha see.

>Not a lot left anymore to "preserve" or "protect", y'know.
"Ugh; right again."

I *hate* being correct, even if it is rare.
Hate lying to myself even *more*, too.

"The question of course is, can we recover most or even some of what we've lost?"

No.
"It" is not ours to recover.
Hasn't that been made abundantly clear by now?

"We won't know unless we try."

You try.
I've not the time nor the inclination.
Not getting any younger, y'know.
Life is short enough as it is without wasting precious time on those who neither want nor asked for "guidance".
And y'know what?
We should be fine with that *arrangement*.
They have *their* reality & we have ours. ;^)

"Giving up is not an option; you've said so yourself."

I did.
What I've said is in no way advocating "giving up", hardly.
No.
I'm suggesting we step back & let 'em have what they want.
I know, I know, an act of spite.
But if one can't reason with 'em, can't stop 'em, then what the hell else is one to do?

Truth is we've been richly blessed with loving partners, families, and friends.
It is *those* people I'll be spending my energies on and you oughta do likewise instead of being concerned for people who have neither asked nor deserve the attention?

>Has it occurred to anyone the huge influx of African & Asian Muslims to the European continent might just have the effect of their "taking over" much in the same way Mexicans (~or the Irish, for that matter) have/did here? That is to say, legally?
"Can't speak for euro immigration policies/laws etc, but calling the influx of Mexican, and Central and South American immigration especially "legal" is a stretch."

No it's not.
It's a word.
An easily redefined word, incidentally.

Those who're "illegal" today can tomorrow be declared, "legal".
Enough of 'em are declared "legal & they might just put their heads together & decide to make people like *us*, "illegal".
Don't laugh.

"The illegals probably outnumber the legals 10 to 1? "We the people" are foursquare against this invasion, but our government and corporate handlers apparently know better."

Yes you're undoubtedly correct, nonetheless we'll do what "our government *&* corporate handlers tell us to do", or else.
Those are the rules.

>Why would any sane person wish for us to intervene with their richly deserved fate?
"A question I'm sure will be hotly debated in the not too distant future; maybe our lifetimes?"

Maybe so, but not by I.
The matter's clearcut: If after I tell one NOT to do something, they do it anyway & insoding windup in trouble? I'll be damned if I'm going to lift a finger to help 'em.
Again" why would any sane person wish to intervene with their richly deserved fate?

And please don't go laying a guilt trip on me, accusing me of not having a heart, either.
I've an immense, strong heart.
My heart's simply not made available for every half-assed nincompoop who comes down the pike, is all.
If it were, it'd be consumed in *seconds*.

"How much input we, the sovereign people of the United States, will have is something that's debatable now."

It's hardly "debatable", not anymore & certainly not today.
Trust your eyes, even if you don't like what you see.

"From where I sit, I agree with you, what we have to say about it, if anything, will likely go unheeded."

Yup.
Now let's go get a beer & leave the rest to *themselves*, shall we? ;^)

"We should begin rattling our sabers, or what's left of 'em."

But we have, we have.

...haven't we? {g}

[FBD]

RE: "Knowin's not controllin'".

>"It only took you a year, another a lifetime & most never.

....you're wayyyyyyy ahead of the curve, my friend."<

-Well, thanks Lan, but I was beginning to think I was a bit slow... ;^)

---

Lan, FGS, and Mr Natural:
I think the whole trick is to recognize the situation, and then know what to do about it for our own individual lives...not that we can change what is happening to the country. It's completely beyond our *control*.

I'd liken it to surfing; when you see a wave coming, you can paddle with it, and ride it, you can paddle over it, or duck dive under it, (if it's starting to break) to avoid it. -Or you can just sit there, and watch it break right on top of you... no matter what we decide to do for ourselves, that waves coming regardless, and we can't stop it.

Mr. Natural?
-I believe it's time to either duck, paddle, or *ride it out*...but we aren't going to stop the huge *wave* of non-assimilating immigrants who are already here, or the many more who are on the way...

-and if I was Travis McGee, I know one thing that I'd do: I'd cut that sloop loose from the dock! ;^)

regards

[muir_redwoods]

We've done our part. My wife and I had three kids. It was nice work too. At least my part was untroubled by labor and delivery.

There is an old saying that fits here. It says, "If you're green you grow, if you're ripe you rot" A country is either growing or declining, there is no standing still.

[Travis McGee]

One foot on the land, one on the ocean.

[Landru]

"...but we aren't going to stop the huge *wave* of non-assimilating immigrants who are already here, or the many more who are on the way..."

"Non-assimilating immigrants"??
HA!!

What about the non-assimilating native born himbos & bimbos, hmmmm?
Of which there're many, many more.

The illegals have an excuse while the others are just ordinary ingrates.

Ingrates have no excuse, my friend.

...just the vote.

[the anti-liberal]

I reposted as a thread within the last few minutes. For some reason(s), I think it might get yanked. We'll see. Thanks for posting yours.

Well you were right, it was pulled.

"This thread has been pulled:

Pulled on 01/05/2006 6:56:37 PM PST by Jim Robinson, reason:

1) We cannot post from snopes.com per their copyright complaint. 2) Frosty Woolridge is not welcome on FR."

My response to this is (as the individual who posted it to this thread)

a) I've never been to 'snopes.com' and so hadn't grabbed it from there (twas from my HDD) - I grabbed this from a post a post here quite a while back

b) I have no idea who Frosty Woolridge is or why he's not welcome

c) is FR pro-open borders, etc..? or why would they pull that thread?

I've found myself spending less and less time here, FR long longer speaks strongly to me.

[lancer]

As he said, we, as a culture, are slowly and inexorably walking off a cliff. Too many are content to remain blissfully asleep - though some day they will awaken to the horrors of sharia.

I just ordered The Marketing of Evil which seems to offer an antidote to the kind of lemming-like somnolent stupidity that you describe here. If we can get the libs to read it, it might help.

The comments by people who have read it are persuasive (hopefully, they are legitimate.)

[ForGod'sSake]

No. "It" is not ours to recover. Hasn't that been made abundantly clear by now?

Not entirely and I disagree to the extent that our constitutional republic(on paper at least) is ours to do with what we will. The nanny state, with all its attendant "safeguards" has, by design apparently, created an apathy that is epidemic in its proportions. If we do nothing(SOP so far), the pieces of paper are worthless of course and the days of our republic are numbered. It won't be taken by force in the literal sense, but we can and may give it up for lack of resolve.

We should be fine with that *arrangement*. They have *their* reality & we have ours. ;^)

Their reality is a lie and will get us all killed. They and their utopian dreams will have to be reverse engineered or eliminated before we reach the tipping point.

But if one can't reason with 'em, can't stop 'em, then what the hell else is one to do?

They can be stopped. Civil wars have probably started over less. Not the best solution, but maybe the only one remaining, or soon to be remaining.

...instead of being concerned for people who have neither asked nor deserve the attention?

Not your brother's keeper,eh? Thank God our founders didn't foster a similar attitude. Thank God that God doesn't! Do any of us deserve His blessings?

Those who're "illegal" today can tomorrow be declared, "legal".

Today they're illegal; tomorrow is another day.

And please don't go laying a guilt trip on me, accusing me of not having a heart, either.

Moi? I think I know better. It's just the frustration resulting from dealing with those that would not only walk off the cliff themselves, but drag the rest of us along for the ride. Misery loves company?

FGS

[ForGod'sSake]

It's completely beyond our *control*.

I don't accept the wave analogy in that I don't believe it's inevitable(even though the Bible says differently). You of course have heard of "turning the tide" ;' )

[ForGod'sSake]

One foot on the land, one on the ocean.

Heh. Hedging your bets?

[ForGod'sSake]

c) is FR pro-open borders, etc..? or why would they pull that thread?

JR's position on illegal immigration appears to be "flexible" but I'd be tickled to get an update. I had not heard of Frosty Wooldridge when I ran across the article you posted either. From what I'm able to gather, Wooldridge is viewed by some as "over the top" because of his "motives", whatever they are, and connections(?) with some baser types. FWIW...

[Landru]

>No. "It" is not ours to recover. Hasn't that been made abundantly clear by now?
"Not entirely and I disagree to the extent that our constitutional republic(on paper at least) is ours to do with what we will."

In this day & age's language please define for me, "we".
Go ahead, define it.
They have.
Seems you're having trouble understanding what they've done given your anger at what's not really changed that much, a'tall.
The "battlefield lines" haven't shifted even a little bit.

"The nanny state, with all its attendant "safeguards" has, by design apparently, created an apathy that is epidemic in its proportions."

Yea, they sure have.
Some *softening* was required, huh.

"If we do nothing(SOP so far), the pieces of paper are worthless of course and the days of our republic are numbered."

Righteo, partner..."A Republic Madam, if you can keep it."

"It won't be taken by force in the literal sense, but we can and may give it up for lack of resolve."

Resolve's a lot like a tank of gas, it burns until there's none left so it's best to use it wisely, eh?
They're a *patient* bunch, those who've waited to see the Republic fall for many years.
Should those who'd see her survive be any less patient?
I think not, bend but don't break, that's the key.

>We should be fine with that *arrangement*. They have *their* reality & we have ours. ;^)
"Their reality is a lie and will get us all killed."

*All*?
Was kinda hoping it'd get them killed, truth be told; and, for the exact reason you stated.
Their lies cannot sustain 'em my friend, all we await is *the* catalyst.

"They and their utopian dreams will have to be reverse engineered or eliminated before we reach the tipping point."

The "reverse engineering" of their damage will happen instantly, be quite automatic.
There'll be those who voluntarily come tell us what "we" tried telling them.
Just watch.

>But if one can't reason with 'em, can't stop 'em, then what the hell else is one to do?
"They can be stopped. Civil wars have probably started over less. Not the best solution, but maybe the only one remaining, or soon to be remaining."

Love your spirit, the Texan in you's hardwired, and for that I am thankful. ;^)

>...instead of being concerned for people who have neither asked nor deserve the attention?
"Not your brother's keeper,eh?"

Nope, sorry.
Not this time.
In the Republic's past the sort we're talking about would've been hung, shot or beaten to *death*, and that'd have taken care of the "problem".
None of those *option(s)* are open anymore; so, gotta wait for 'em to take each other out, eh?
And they will take each other out just as sure as God made little green apples, FGS.

"Thank God our founders didn't foster a similar attitude."

Ouch.
Cyber backhands, worst kind, never see 'em coming to duck.

"Thank God that God doesn't!"

I've no idea *what* God has on His mind and neither do you, my friend.
Except it's safe to say, He has everything under control.
So perhaps the sound of my faith isn't recognized by your ears I assure you it is nonetheless a profound, steadfast *faith*. ;^)

"Do any of us deserve His blessings?"

I only ever ask that question of myself, FGS.

>Those who're "illegal" today can tomorrow be declared, "legal".
"Today they're illegal; tomorrow is another day."

Yes Scarlet. {g}

>And please don't go laying a guilt trip on me, accusing me of not having a heart, either.
"Moi? I think I know better."

Me too, that's why I said what I did.

"It's just the frustration resulting from dealing with those that would not only walk off the cliff themselves, but drag the rest of us along for the ride."

Don't think for an instant I cannot sense your [heightened] level of frustration, I can.

Remember this: the raging "cultural war" is a long, painfully slow endeavor.
I told you (& bert) *years* ago many good "soldiers" would fall along the way fighting this war.
I wanted to make damned sure among the fallen wouldn't be me *or* you.
General Patten had something to say about "Dieing for one's country", didn't he?
If and/or when[ever] I sense a soldier for the cause faltering I consider it my duty to kick 'em in the pants in an effort to get them to stand back up.

To all others I couldn't care less, they'll reap the harvest they sow.
The weak will indeed, in the end, inherit the earth.
Probably by default.
In any event accepting those facts make fighting this "cultural war" a tricky proposition for anyone seriously considering engaging the Liberal-Socialist-Communist opposition-buggers. ;^)

"Misery loves company?"

Alright, I'm miserable.
Happy?

Now how's about that [cyber] beer?

...you're buying.

[jordan8]

But it's not about race, it's about culture. If 100% of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy, it doesn't matter whether 70% of them are "white" or only 5% are. But if one part of your population believes in liberal pluralist democracy and the other doesn't, then it becomes a matter of great importance whether the part that does is 90% of the population or only 60%, 50%, 45%.

A good article from Steyn, except for this little bow before political correctness. Race and culture can't really be separated and if the numbers of migrants are large enough they will necessarily destroy the culture. Ask an American Indian. There is really no such thing as assimilation once you get above a very small percent of population change, there is only amalgamation, and when the population of these nations becomes majority Muslim or anything else they will not believe in "liberal pluralist democracy" however you choose to define that phrase. What's more it's irrelevant if they do. Fascist Italy was still Italy, an Italy with a non-Italian majority won't be, no matter what form of government they have.

[Travis McGee]

Darn right. I could leave tomorrow and spend 100+ days at sea without touching land. Much longer in needed.

[ForGod'sSake]

In this day & age's language please define for me, "we".

I think I know where you're headed with that question, and it's an excellent point, er, question. All about numbers ain't it? Are there more "sovereign" minded Americans vs those that want to be kept essentially? Enter the socialist's Dim's "divide and conquer" plan, neatly dovetailed with the Tired Old Media's propaganda mis-information bullhorn. And I agree, the battle line's have not moved nor has the battle substantially changed. Good vs evil, any way you cut it. A rose by any other name...

Resolve's a lot like a tank of gas, it burns until there's none left so it's best to use it wisely, eh?

Agreed, and people's mileage may vary, but there are also gas stations along the way ;^)

*All*?

Yes.

Was kinda hoping it'd get them killed, truth be told; and, for the exact reason you stated.

Many good guys will fall along with the dregs of our society. Damn shame but I can think of no other way to take 'em out given the current political climate. I expect it will come to blows. Truth be known, I also suspect there are only a few hardcore on either side of this battle, but the pulik skools are steadily adding troops to the other side. Are they going to be "fighters" or will they be like Saddam's front line "soldiers" whose heart really ain't in the fight? Will they have the "resolve" to defend their position once the shooting starts??? I honestly don't think so FWIW.

Their lies cannot sustain 'em my friend, all we await is *the* catalyst.

Just so. Are you as tired of waiting as I am? Patience is something I've had to cultivate, it just didn't happen fast enough to suit me ;' ) However, if I can see progress, I can probably deal with the frustration. Have to!

The "reverse engineering" of their damage will happen instantly, be quite automatic. There'll be those who voluntarily come tell us what "we" tried telling them. Just watch.

Make it so........in my lifetime.

Love your spirit, the Texan in you's hardwired, and for that I am thankful.

Heh. The "Republic" of Texas has never looked better than it does today. Item of curiousity; just who would come along on that ride? Talking through my hat.

And they will take each other out just as sure as God made little green apples, FGS.

I like the scenario but I'm not sure I follow; gimme a hint.

I've no idea *what* God has on His mind and neither do you, my friend.

Oh but I do(somewhat). He has given us liberty(to reject Him), a set of guidelines and a history. He has made it perfectly clear what happens each and every time His "guidelines" are ignored. He knows full well what will happen; the same thing that has happened since time in memoriam. Why doesn't He step in when we would like Him to? Simple, we would lose our liberty; our freedom to reject Him. "Faith" would no longer be operable if He shows His hand at every turn. So He allows the chips to fall, retains a seed, and starts over again. He has lots of time and when we pass from this life we will gain a fuller understanding of why He works the way He does. His ways only appear mysterious to us, when in truth, I submit they rely on perfect logic and a love for His creation.

Except it's safe to say, He has everything under control.

To the extent that He will; see above ;' )

So perhaps the sound of my faith isn't recognized by your ears I assure you it is nonetheless a profound, steadfast *faith*.

Wonderful to hear. Means we'll absolutely meet face to face one day. Keep the fires burning my friend.

In any event accepting those facts make fighting this "cultural war" a tricky proposition for anyone seriously considering engaging the Liberal-Socialist-Communist opposition-buggers.

Indeed it does. Especially when the Bible tells us to stand firm; putting on the whole armor of God. Ironically, the Bible doesn't tell us to fight the evil; only to stand firm against it. I don't question that precept as much as I don't understand its implications. I'd rather fight than switch, but we all have our crosses to bear, eh?

Alright, I'm miserable. Happy?

No.

...you're buying.

Sheesh! The sacrifices!

FGS

[ForGod'sSake]

I could leave tomorrow and spend 100+ days at sea without touching land. Much longer in needed.

Need a deck hand??? I haven't given it a lot of thought, but these piney woods of East Texas are similar in ways to the ocean. It wouldn't be that hard to "get lost" so to speak. But I'm really getting too old for this $Ч!† ;' )