Vladimir Putin. Magician, Mouse or Monster

Johnson's Russia List ^ | 09 Jan 2006 | Edward Lucas

[GodGunsGuts]

Only God decided Putin's eternal fate, not me.

Nevertheless, the Bible says we shall know fellow Christians by their fruits.

Stalin cultivated nationalism and promoted the Russian Orthodox Church during WWII. Should we on that basis declare Stalin a Christian?

[GarySpFc]

God hardened his heart, Pharaoh did not have a choice to profess anything.

You are referring to Exodus 4:21. The Lord’s personal and direct involvement in the affairs of men so that His purposes might be done is revealed as God informed Moses what would take place. Pharaoh was also warned that his own refusal would bring judgment on him (v. 23). Previously Moses had been told that God was certain of Pharaoh’s refusal (3:19). There is a refusal when there is free will. This interplay between God’s hardening and Pharaoh’s hardening his heart must be kept in balance. Ten times (4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17) the historical record notes specifically that God hardened the king’s heart, and ten times (7:13, 14, 22; 8:15, 19, 32; 9:7, 34, 35; 13:15) the record indicates the king hardened his own heart. The Apostle Paul used this hardening as an example of God’s inscrutable will and absolute power to intervene as He chooses, yet obviously never without loss of personal responsibility for actions taken. The theological conundrum posed by such interplay of God’s acting and Pharaoh’s acting can only be resolved by accepting the record as it stands and by taking refuge in the omniscience and omnipotence of the God who planned and brought about His deliverance of Israel from Egypt, and in so doing also judged Pharaoh’s sinfulness.

Now Christ said there would be many 'professing' to be Christian and He told us NOT to be deceived.

And you have overlooked the good fruits that Putin has produced, and ignored the test for his Christianity.

[GarySpFc]

I have a home in Volgograd, and you have clearly judged Putin's heart.

[x5452]

1. Putin claims to be Christian.
2. He's on record as having stated that opression of Christianity was a mistake in KGB meetings.
3. He's calling people to celebrate Christmas when most instead celebrate only New Years.
4. If anyone is USING Christianity it's Yushchenko who is trying to strong arm the ecumenical patriarch in Istanbul to recognize a nationalist Ukrainian church started by an ousted heretic.

[Lukasz]

I can only confirm NativeRussian's version, it was the same in my Poland. Here communism was never popular and only worst bastards and opportunists were members of the communist party. For sure nobody was punished if he refused to join. There is few communist apologists in this forum and they dont care what Eastern Europeans claims, they know better...

[GarySpFc]

Putin in no way compares to Stalin. You are judging Putin's heart based on his time in the KGB, and not what it has been the last few years since he became a Christian.

[x5452]

Since we're renouncing evil communists who joined up to advance their careers I'd like to renounce one myself.

VICKTOR YUSHCHENKO.

[GodGunsGuts]

==Since we're renouncing evil communists who joined up to advance their careers I'd like to renounce one myself. VICKTOR YUSHCHENKO.

I don't know alot about Yushchenko. I for one don't trust much of anything coming out of the former Communist bloc. If I recall correctly, Yushchenko used to be a banker for the Communists. That automatically makes me suspicious. But like I said, I don't know enough to comment on this individual. Perhaps you could enlighten us re: Yushchenko's Communist past. Thanks--GGG

[nativeRussian]

Stalin was constructor of new state on ruins of old one. Putin is only thief. Nobody can say that Stalin was thief. Stalin weared darned clothes and shoes.
Stalin was historical personality.
Putin is only former KGB-officer, now he is thief like 80% of former KGB-officers. The rest 20% were orthodox communists and now they are beggars.

[GodGunsGuts]

It would be nice if the people of formerly Communist countries could in some way force the 'former' Communists in their respective countries to come clean about their pasts and then let the people decide what to do with them. I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like a whole lot of that has been going on in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere. What do you think?

[x5452]

He joined to advance his career. You don't get to head the bank without being a communist in the Soviet Union.

He also sits on a Soros NGO in Ukraine.

[x5452]

Stalin killed millions. o_o How can you defend Stalin and attack Putin?

[x5452]

In fairness the best policy is what Poland is doing, once there are enough conservative young politicians kick anyone with ties to former soviet aparatchiks out.

Right now however there is no one else even remotely capable of holding Russia together and keeping the economy growing other than Putin.

[Lukasz]

I have never claimed that he is saint, for sure he is guilty of thieving. But in opposition to Putin never was member of KGB, he was an economist. If you analyze all Ukrainian political fraction you realize that there are only socialists and communist. “Our Ukraine” is the only pro-capitalist fraction which already started privatization process and this is the most important thing. Beside my expectation towards Ukraine are lesser than towards Poland, if he is the only one who would like to cooperate with us and is capitalist, then he has my support. Putin is former KGB agent, anti-capitalist and openly unfriendly to my country imperialist, so I will never support him. They are capitalists in Russia, their attitude towards Poland is friendly so I would naturally prefer them.

[GodGunsGuts]

==I have a home in Volgograd, and you have clearly judged Putin's heart.

I agree (and I too am judging Putin's actions). Having said that, it appears as though you are doing a whole lot of judging yourself in your defense of V. Putin.

[Lukasz]

It would be nice if the people of formerly Communist countries could in some way force the 'former' Communists in their respective countries to come clean about their pasts and then let the people decide what to do with them. I'm no expert, but it doesn't seem like a whole lot of that has been going on in the former Soviet Union and elsewhere. What do you think?

You know, communists allowed to give up their power because they gained guaranties of safety. Beside they are still quite influential, they renamed party’s names and exist as a socialists/leftists. I would like to see them punished but I don’t believe that something like that ever happens.

[x5452]

It's hilareous.

One minute you're all 'anyone who was a communist is an evil SOB' and the next suddently you agree with what Gary and I routinely point out; someone who was a member of the communist party may have only done so without supporting communism and in fact might be a capitalist today.

(Difference being that ceasing Naftogaz as Yushchenko did strongly indicates a penchant for the communist system of government).

[Lukasz]

No, don’t change my statements. I wrote that UB/KGB member were the worst bastards and others who searched financial gains like Yushchenko I called opportunists.

[x5452]

You also concured whole heartedly with nativeRussian who's whole point has been anyone who joined was a bad guy.

I actually agree that people joined for reasons other than loyalty to party ideals.

My dislike for Yushchenko is because he's a theif, oppurtunist, heretic, and works promoting the Soros machine in Ukraine.

I don't actually care that he was formerlly a communist when he ran the bank, I care that he used that to steal money.

[nativeRussian]

Stalin killed millions. o_o How can you defend Stalin and attack Putin?

Firstly. You try to repeat wrongfull accusation on Stalin made by Khruschev's order. Stalin was intricate and unsympathetic person. Trotsky and Lenin were most disgusting persons in history. But they all were not such thieves like Mr.Putin is. Secondly. I do not defend Stalin because I've read many books about Stalin's reign but you did not (if you tell such boring fairy tale about Stalin-murderer). If you tell Trotsky is murderer I'll say "yes"! If you tell Lenin is murderer I'll say "Yes"! But and in this cases all is not so unambiguously. However Trotsky and Lenin were destroyers but Stalin was creator. It is without controversy!