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Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
cnsnews.com ^ | 1/13/05 | By Marc Morano and Randy Hall

Posted on 01/13/2006 11:53:53 AM PST by paltz

(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

"[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

Murtha and Bailey, once allies, were forced to run against each other in a Democratic congressional primary in 1982 following redistricting. Murtha won the election.

Murtha has, in the past, publicly dismissed any questions about whether he deserved his two Purple Hearts, noting during his 1994 congressional campaign that "I am proud of my service in Vietnam."

In his Friday, Jan. 13, response to the Cybercast News Service investigation, Murtha again defended his military record.

"Questions about my record are clearly an attempt to distract attention from the real issue, which is that our brave men and women in uniform are dying and being injured every day in the middle of a civil war that can be resolved only by the Iraqis themselves," Murtha wrote in an email response.

"I volunteered for a year's duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear," Murtha added.

However, another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide.

When Saylor died in 1973, Fox attempted to succeed his boss in Congress, but was narrowly defeated by Murtha in a 1974 special election.

"Pretending to be a big war hero and boasting about having medals is a slap in the face to our veterans who were seriously wounded or killed in action," Fox was quoted as telling the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Nov. 1, 1996 edition. "He campaigned as a war hero and I've never seen any documentation that he earned any of these honors," Fox reportedly stated.

On Friday, Jan. 13, Murtha's congressional communications director provided Cybercast News Service with a copy of a letter from the commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, citing Murtha's request of Sept. 26, 1967, seeking Purple Hearts. Cybercast News Service did not authenticate the letter.

"The records of this Headquarters show that you are entitled to the Purple Heart and a Gold Star in lieu of a second Purple Heart for wounds received in action against insurgent Communist Guerrilla forces on 22 March and 7 May 1967 in the Republic of Vietnam," according to the letter signed by an individual identified only as A. Gardoni. Gardoni's title is not listed on the letter.

Cybercast News Service attempted to contact Fox for this article, but learned that the health of the 81-year-old was too poor to allow him to communicate. But in a 1996 newspaper article, Fox questioned whether Murtha deserved his Purple Hearts, alleging that there was insufficient evidence of injuries and that Murtha was never confined to a hospital.

"Of course Congressman Saylor wanted to help if he could, but there was nothing in the service record to indicate the wounds were of any severity and the documents specifically indicated that next of kin was not notified in either instance," Fox told the Herald-Standard in 1996. "We were amazed that Mr. Murtha was asking for Purple Hearts for superficial lacerations," he added.

Murtha's accounts of his Vietnam War wounds may also conflict with the available U.S. Marine medical records obtained by the media.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

"In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

"I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.

A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

Murtha, a 16-term congressman from southwestern Pennsylvania and the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, drew national attention on Nov. 17, 2005, when he called for an immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq.

The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience.

"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Murtha discussed his own combat experience as a marine intelligence officer in his 2004 autobiography, "From Vietnam to 9/11: On the Front Lines of National Security."

"I had been awake more than twenty-four hours by the time we landed. A few hours into the battle, an on-again-off-again event, I could no longer keep my eyes open. I curled up next to a bunker and fell into a deep sleep for about an hour. Even the noise of frequent gunfire didn't wake me up. (One of my fellow officers told me the next morning that when he hadn't seen me for an hour or so, he assumed I was dead,)" Murtha wrote of one of his Vietnam combat experiences on page 14 of the 2004 paperback edition of his book. Murtha's two Purple Hearts are referenced on the back of the book.

In addition to his Purple Hearts, Murtha received the Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and the Bronze Star with combat "V" for service in the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam. Murtha also served in the Marines during the Korean War but did not serve in Korea, according to his book.

'He's a phony and a liar'

Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.

... you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn't earn your purple hearts (sic) (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn't even directly related to an APC [Armored Personnel Carrier] that ran over a small antipersonnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart [sic] you even declined to explain," wrote Bailey in an open letter dated May 5, 2002.

Bailey is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. He served in the U.S. Army's 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and was awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars.

"At the time (of Murtha's alleged admission), you were feeling particularly vulnerable because it wasn't too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for 'saving your life' before the ethics committee (on Abscam-related charges). There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart [sic] and that you didn't want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam veterans that served with us," Bailey wrote in his May 2002 letter.

"You may deny that all you wish -- but you and I know that that conversation took place," he added.

In the Jan. 9 interview with Cybercast News Service Bailey affirmed the contents of his 2002 letter.

"The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he's got two Purple Hearts. He's a phony and a liar," Bailey said.

Bailey also questioned why Murtha has thus far declined to release his full military records in order to clear up the controversy.

"The Marine Corps ought to be able to produce all the orders, the medical stuff, the citations and the orders granting [the Purple Hearts] and everything else. Where is that stuff?" he asked.

According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha "produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards," and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that "the media for years has investigated 'and found nothing.'"

But Murtha's paperwork did nothing to sway Bailey's opinion.

"You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts [sic]. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get," Bailey wrote in his letter while demanding an apology from Murtha for questioning his credibility.

Murtha could end the controversy at any time, Bailey added, simply by calling a press conference and producing the evidence of his wounds.

"Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts.[sic] Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important, Jack, describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago," Bailey wrote.

"Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated noncombat-related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign -- then show me the money, Jack," Bailey added.

Murtha: 'I'm proud of my service in Vietnam'

During the 1994 congressional campaign against GOP opponent Dr. William Choby, Murtha's two Purple Hearts became a political issue.

"Explain your Purple Hearts. He (Murtha) used them to get elected," Choby charged in 1994.

In responding to the charges, Murtha claimed that he "didn't ask for the Purple Hearts.

"I'm proud of my service in Vietnam. I don't know if he (Choby) served in the service at all. I left my family and my business to serve in Vietnam. My family made great sacrifice for me to make that service in Vietnam, so I'm very proud of that," he told the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Oct. 26, 1994 edition.

"I am disappointed that a guy (Choby) would say something like that when I volunteered in the reserves and I felt it was important that I go. What's the point in all this? It's irritating," Murtha added.

Choby also challenged the validity of Murtha's Bronze Star with Combat 'V' during the 1996 congressional campaign.

"I find it very curious that Combat 'V' doesn't even exist in any of the materials he had distributed," Choby was quoted as saying in the Herald-Standard of Oct. 13, 1996. "His military record improves over the years," he added.

The Murtha controversy is reminiscent of the flap surrounding the war record of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. But while critics like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry in 2004 because of his anti-war activism of the 1970s, Murtha's three chief accusers all made their allegations years and in some cases decades before Murtha emerged last November as a prominent anti-war activist.

Choby told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 5 that Murtha's entire political career is based on his war record. "Without that credibility of those combat medals, he would have never been elected to office," Choby said.

(Monisha Bansal also contributed to this article.)

Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; abscam; anotherpurpleowie; cnsnews; exmarine; foundkerrysmedals; liar; murtha; murthamedals; phony; phonyandaliar; purpleheart; purplehearts
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To: paltz
"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said.

It's been my experience that people who have come home from service with a PH don't say what Murtha said.

201 posted on 01/13/2006 3:36:01 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: BoBToMatoE
Correct. Engage him on his ideas.

The problem is, he's using his wounded Vietnam Veteran status to lend credibility to his "ideas". Or at least others are using his supposed record that way. If the record is false, that not only discredits him, but also his ideas. You can't separate the two that neatly.

202 posted on 01/13/2006 3:36:03 PM PST by El Gato (The Second Amendment is the Reset Button of the U.S. Constitution)
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To: School of Rational Thought
The posts on this thread of the folks who have never been there, much less in the military strongly suggest reinstatement of the draft. Their posts are asine....
203 posted on 01/13/2006 3:36:46 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: kellynla

Absolutely right, IMO.


204 posted on 01/13/2006 3:41:19 PM PST by PatriotGirl827 (There are no short cuts to any place worth going.)
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To: Wristpin
I don't believe that was the case with Bob Dole or the President's father.

Or on the other side of the isle, Senator Inouye of Hawaii, who was awarded the Medal of Honor and who lost his right arm in the process. That was as a battlefield commissioned 2nd Lt. of the 442nd Regimental Combat team in Italy.

205 posted on 01/13/2006 3:42:37 PM PST by El Gato (The Second Amendment is the Reset Button of the U.S. Constitution)
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To: Mr. K
SPEAKING OF RELEASING HIS MILITARY RECORDS- DID J EFFIN KERRY RELEASE HIS LIKE HE PROMISED TO ON RUSSERT'S SHOW??

Nope

If anyone knows the date of that episode of Meet the Press, I'd like to know...I believe it was Spring 2005? Then later Kerry said he had signed it but had not faxed it to the military?

206 posted on 01/13/2006 3:42:47 PM PST by RushCrush (Liberals have low self esteem.)
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marker


207 posted on 01/13/2006 3:43:20 PM PST by GretchenM (God made you. He will also take you out. Better to go on His terms -- through Jesus.)
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To: RushCrush

Actually he quietly released it to a couple of friendly reporters at the Boston Globe and had a "military expert" go through it for them....I imagine Murtha would do the similar thing if pushed.


208 posted on 01/13/2006 3:46:38 PM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: OldEagle
He says he has a Bronze Star with the "Combat V". Is this something new? I thought the V stood for something else.

The "V" device on a Bronze Star stands for "valor". It is used to distinguish between Bronze Stars awarded for actions in combat, which get the "V", versus those awarded for non-combat actions, which don't.

209 posted on 01/13/2006 3:48:10 PM PST by Bob
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Comment #210 Removed by Moderator

To: paltz
..calling Jean Schmidt!
211 posted on 01/13/2006 3:50:15 PM PST by WalterSkinner
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To: paltz
Murtha's my congressman.

You could say that politics gets a little rough around here?

212 posted on 01/13/2006 3:54:24 PM PST by Ramcat (Thank You American Veterans)
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To: Bob
"The "V" device on a Bronze Star stands for "valor". "

I have never heard it called a "Combat V". You can get one in combat without the "V".

213 posted on 01/13/2006 3:54:50 PM PST by OldEagle (May you live long enough to hear the legends of your own adventures.)
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To: truepat
Yes, but GWB never drove an airplane in a combat zone...not that he didn't volunteer...they just didn't need duece drivers with limited experience. He is deserving of all the accolades of a patriot...the first time I got shot at in anger..I wished big time I had taken GW's route....and gone to the Guard. That being said him flying the "Deuce" and me flying hash and trash...he was probably at greater risk!!
214 posted on 01/13/2006 3:55:31 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

BTW...Murtha is a phony lying POS...excuse my memory lapses


215 posted on 01/13/2006 3:57:40 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: RushCrush

"If anyone knows the date of that episode of Meet the Press, I'd like to know...I believe it was Spring 2005?"

348 days ago,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6886726
Hanoi Kerry promised, on national TV,
to sign form SF-180 AND release his full military records
to the public.
He has yet to do so.
President Bush signed his Form 180 in 2004.

Kerry Hangs Back From Disclosure to All
The NY Sun June 9, 2005 Josh Gerstein
http://www.nysun.com/article/15135

Did Kerry really release Navy records?
Chicagao Sun Times June 9, 2005 THOMAS H. LIPSCOMB
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lip09.html

EXPOSE HANOI KERRY!

MUST SEE WEBSITE!!!!

http://www.kerrystreason.com/index.html

http://stophanoikerry.150m.com


216 posted on 01/13/2006 4:01:41 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: Wristpin
Actually he quietly released it to a couple of friendly reporters at the Boston Globe and had a "military expert" go through it for them....I imagine Murtha would do the similar thing if pushed.

Actually no, he did NOT release it as he said he would. He was very selective in what his Form 180 released and did not release, and apparently it did not release his medical records. John O'Neill challenged Kerry this year on that and said if John Kerry is unclear as to how to go about signing the Form 180 and releasing the records in their entirety and not just to a few liberal, left-wing media hacks at the Boston Globe, then John O'Neill stated he would gladly accompany Kerry and help him to sign Form 180 correctly.

And no, I doubt that Murtha would want his bogus military records fully opened & expunged any more than what Kerry wants his bogus military records fully opened.

217 posted on 01/13/2006 4:05:26 PM PST by rcrngroup
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To: MadeInAmerica
him and Kerry should get together and swap war stories

I think this was done in a movie also, but my uncle at a cookout was talking with my dad and other uncles about their time in the Marine Corp and Army.....

well all the little cousins were sitting down and listening...so my uncle goes into this hair raising story"we were surrounded, me and 3 other guys..and about 100-150 VC came from the front... and about another 100 flanked us, when we checked the other side of the perimeter all we could see was black pajamas and muzzle flashes...

So we sat there and waited and waited, till finally somebody asked,"what happened???!!!!"

Well he swells up, stands up tall, pointed a longneck in our general direction and said...."we all got killed!!! Gee, nobody could live through that, so don't listen to any 'war stories'..hahahahahaha"

My dad and the rest were just busting a gut... they rarely told "war" stories, just funny things that somebody in their unit did, or how they got nicknames or how odd certain physical attributes of their fellow Marines and soldiers had.

Murtha, Kerry and the others that may or may not have "punched a ticket" to get the right ribbon for their resume need a reality check through Walter Reed.

My pop earned 1 Purple Heart. Lost half a leg, had multiple gunshot wounds, phosporous burns, and parts of a grenade in his "good" leg and his back. 2 1/2 years at Corpus Christi Naval Air Station after hitting Brooks Burn unit showed me how real soldiers earned their Purple Hearts.... from what I saw none of them were "given".

If this f'ing Democrat turns out to be a "poser" and REMF/Poster Boy Marine that pulled a "Kerry" in order to pad the Purple Heart count and "V" for valor ticket, he needs to be exposed.

I don't think anybody that's earned a combat ribbon is shy about showing how he earned his award, especially if somebody is challenging them on it.

Should be easy enough to find out with the Pajamahadim... somebody served with this a-hole. Somebody had to have seen the wounds that earned him the Purple Hearts.... I wouldn't be suprised if it wasn't a Navy guy like..say.... John Kerry..bwahahahahaha... they probably met in Cambodia over Christmas vacation.

218 posted on 01/13/2006 4:07:20 PM PST by Dick Vomer (liberals suck......... but it depends on what your definition of the word "suck" is.)
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To: paltz

I'm late to the party, but (like Kerry) Murtha is the guy who keeps raising the issue of his military service. Otherwise, it wouldn't be relevant.

I think he and kerry should both provide the public with full disclosure by authorizing the release of their service records.

The MSM made Bush do it, and kept right on bitching after he did. Why are Democrats exempt?


219 posted on 01/13/2006 4:08:13 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: GSWarrior

Is this a wise place to go?

-- -- --


The truth is always a wise place to go. And since the credibility of this 'rat, who is citing his mysterious awards as his crowning substantiation, is questioning the decisions, authority, and character of President Bush.


220 posted on 01/13/2006 4:11:30 PM PST by HighWheeler ("Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What's a sundial in the shade?" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: paltz

I was talking to a friend who's son is in the Marines and served in Iraq during the first year of the war. His vehicle had an RPG explode above it that cause some minor shrapnel wounds, an injury to his shoulder and permanent hearing loss in both ears, he'll probably need hearing aids within 10 years according to doctors. He did not receive and has said would not have accepted a Purple for his wounds because his injuries weren't deserving of it.

As far as I'm concerned if this SOB received his medals for a couple of scratches and has since used them to enhance his political career, everything possible should be done to unmask him for what he is. Anything less is an insult to the many deserving people who have served and are still serving in our military.


221 posted on 01/13/2006 4:13:06 PM PST by whershey
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To: paltz
IF TRUE..Patriotism, is (almost always) the last refuge of a Scoundrel / Demagogue.
222 posted on 01/13/2006 4:13:41 PM PST by skinkinthegrass (Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you :^)
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To: bnelson44

"Trying to find fault in someone's war service is not honorable."

Vets are honorable to protect the integrity of their service by fighting for purity in the award system, and exposing the heroism hitchhikers. When one bases the strength of his attacks on fellow vets and the current military on his military record, it be idiotic not to take a simple look at that record.


223 posted on 01/13/2006 4:17:25 PM PST by ansel12
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To: paltz
Considering all the future Purple Hearts he's causing for our troops, by cheering for our defeat--- he's fair game.
224 posted on 01/13/2006 4:18:28 PM PST by melt (Someday, they'll wish their Jihad... Jihadn't.)
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To: OldEagle
I have never heard it called a "Combat V".

I believe that the term "with Combat V" was the term used to describe kerry's Silver Star. The Silver Star doesn't have "V" and "non-V" awards because it can only be awarded for actions in combat.

You can get one in combat without the "V".

I didn't know that. I thought all Bronze Stars awarded for combat actions had the "V" device and the non-combat ones didn't.

225 posted on 01/13/2006 4:18:49 PM PST by Bob
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To: Phantom Lord

If the man is a lier and gamed the system, by all means make him own up to it. Any way possible. He has power by corrupt means. That is not good for us.


226 posted on 01/13/2006 4:23:47 PM PST by BobS
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To: OldArmy52

"But that would not have made me a patriot even if I had gotten a purple heart for whatever."

I was a draftee and did my duty by answering the call. Murtha is determined to undermine our war effort in Iraq with no regard to the perilous consequences that our country will suffer as a result.

His citing his military record, as a measure of his patriotism, is nothing more than an attempt to deflect criticism.

He should be called to account for his record, and if he is what he says he is, his cooperation should be forthcoming.


227 posted on 01/13/2006 4:27:03 PM PST by wingman1 (University of Vietnam 1970. Forget? Hell.)
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To: Bob

I have a bronze star that I received for "meritorious service".

The V device is for valor. You are corerect.


228 posted on 01/13/2006 4:30:03 PM PST by wingman1 (University of Vietnam 1970. Forget? Hell.)
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To: El Gato

Hola El Gato,
Amen to that and I would like to see the medical reports veifying those alleged wounds.

When called on to verify the truth, not one democrat can meet the standard.

America's AQ the democrats, Osama's liberal supporters who want America to fall.

Got news for those MF(s) it ain't gonna happen on our watch.

Never To Quit,
NSNR-THM


229 posted on 01/13/2006 4:31:14 PM PST by No Surrender No Retreat (Xin Loi My Boy!!!!)
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To: ansel12

Since some vets want to be cloaked by the rule of military disclosure about DD-214s and other orders, a swath of emptiness is all the sheep that vote for these people rely upon. Murtha has been one of those that slipped through like Kerry. No more.


230 posted on 01/13/2006 4:33:50 PM PST by BobS
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To: Taxman

Remember this?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1555707/posts?page=84#84

Check out this thread.


231 posted on 01/13/2006 4:35:14 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: usmcobra; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

{{{{hugs}}} Tonk
Semper Fi, Cobra.


232 posted on 01/13/2006 4:39:30 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: bnelson44
"Trying to find fault in someone's war service is not honorable."

Agreed, unless that someone is waving his service and decorations as a flag to lend credence to a political cause, and there is reason to question the awards, as appears to be the case here.

If Col Murtha wanted to quash this, he could release the records.

As President Reagan said, "Trust, but verify".
233 posted on 01/13/2006 4:45:13 PM PST by M1911A1
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To: Numbers Guy

" It would be a murky examination anyway, and therefore he would get the benefit of the doubt (as he should)."

I never served, so I leave the question of right and wrong here to you guys who did.

But there is one point worth keeping in mind: the Left still controls the Mainstream Media. I thought the case against Kerry was about as open and shut as the case could possibly be. True, everyone wasn't against the guy. It's hard, but not impossible, to find a guy who everyone is against. But nearly everyone who served in his vicinity was against Kerry. Still, the case against Kerry was barely carried in public overall. In advance, we have to consider how the MSM spin would come in to play on this issue.


234 posted on 01/13/2006 4:46:13 PM PST by strategofr (Taliban had such quick success because of US State Dept support, Dangerous Diplomacy, Mowbray, p. 63)
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To: M1911A1

Moran was confronted by a US Soldier and witnessed the Congressman as the worthless duff he is >

Cut and run. It’s the only way the Dems know. Download the video;

http://media.michellemalkin.com/videos/seaveyvideo.wmv


235 posted on 01/13/2006 4:57:22 PM PST by Broker (COD Phlyer)
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To: paltz

bttt


236 posted on 01/13/2006 4:58:39 PM PST by shield (The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instructions.Pr 1:7)
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To: GSWarrior
Is this a wise place to go?

No, it serves no purpose. The guy did way more than most Americans and now he's a lunatic. Why attack the patriot when you can attack the lunatic?

237 posted on 01/13/2006 5:01:26 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
Why attack the patriot when you can attack the lunatic?i

What kind of lunatic are you???

238 posted on 01/13/2006 5:16:58 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: jwalsh07

You have obviously never served...probably you should not comment....


239 posted on 01/13/2006 5:20:44 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: jwalsh07

Of course it serves a purpose, it helps protect the nation from those that are telling us that our men and women in uniform should not be attacking terrorists where ever they find them.

And doing so prevents a repeat of the whole "Viet Nam" episode where our troops were savaged by the liberal pundits and politians for beating the Communists until they begged for peace.

The purpose here is to never let the left repeat Viet Nam on a whole new generation of our military.

What better purpose is there?


240 posted on 01/13/2006 5:23:09 PM PST by usmcobra (30 years since I first celebrated The Marine Corps Birthday as a Marine)
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To: paltz; Admin Moderator
Why is this dumb thread back to breaking news after it was removed from breaking news section. I tell you guys that it is extremely STUPID to go into Murtha service record. He is killing the democrats with his "cut and run" from Iraq and now some two morons at CNS news want to go into his Vietnam record so people will forget about what he is saying on Iraq and instead sympathize with an old man who has been attacked on his military service. Anyone who does not realize this has the political IQ of a 5 years old.
241 posted on 01/13/2006 5:28:39 PM PST by jveritas (The Axis of Defeatism: Left wing liberals, Buchananites, and third party voters.)
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To: usmcobra

I can't believe you USMC folks are not ripping this POS a new one....hell I am an Army Airplane Driver...and we would piss on the ole mans leg while he was in the shower...


242 posted on 01/13/2006 5:30:23 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: jveritas

Asshole....if you had been in the military...then you would understand....


243 posted on 01/13/2006 5:32:11 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: wingman1
BRONZE STAR MEDAL

3. Criteria: a. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the military of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States; while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force; or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

b. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star.

c. Awards may be made to recognize single acts of merit or meritorious service. The required achievement or service while of lesser degree than that required for the award of the Legion of Merit must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished with distinction.

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/BRONZE%20STAR1.html

244 posted on 01/13/2006 5:33:04 PM PST by CDB
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

forgot JOHN 2...or whatever


245 posted on 01/13/2006 5:33:46 PM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: paltz

Sign the DD Form 180 Murtha, we need proof now since you have been knocking the shit out of our troops serving today...


246 posted on 01/13/2006 5:37:51 PM PST by biff0101
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

I did, I sent him emails and snail mails that would have burnt the paint off a 57 Buick, they all came back rejected.

It seems he doesn't allow anyone outside his district to criticize him at all.


247 posted on 01/13/2006 5:38:31 PM PST by usmcobra (30 years since I first celebrated The Marine Corps Birthday as a Marine)
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To: paltz

This is out of line. Wayyyy out of line. I am not reading this article. This man is defined by what he does today.


248 posted on 01/13/2006 5:43:28 PM PST by kerryusama04 (The Bill of Rights is not occupation specific.)
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To: usmcobra

IMHO, none.


249 posted on 01/13/2006 5:58:02 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: usmcobra; RVN Airplane Driver
Lyndon B. Johnson, appointed Lt Commander, USN. 7 Months active service in Australia and New Zealand; Bombing observer; awarded Army Silver Star.

John Kerry; 4 months service in country, 5 medals: Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts. Allegedly discarded, later reissued?

John Murtha; RVN 66-67 (at least he did a tour); 2 Purple Hearts (requested).

All politicians who proudly served their country in combat. All heroes on paper.
250 posted on 01/13/2006 5:58:34 PM PST by BIGLOOK (I once opposed keelhauling but recently have come to my senses.)
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