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Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
cnsnews.com ^ | 1/13/05 | By Marc Morano and Randy Hall

Posted on 01/13/2006 11:53:53 AM PST by paltz

(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

"[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

Murtha and Bailey, once allies, were forced to run against each other in a Democratic congressional primary in 1982 following redistricting. Murtha won the election.

Murtha has, in the past, publicly dismissed any questions about whether he deserved his two Purple Hearts, noting during his 1994 congressional campaign that "I am proud of my service in Vietnam."

In his Friday, Jan. 13, response to the Cybercast News Service investigation, Murtha again defended his military record.

"Questions about my record are clearly an attempt to distract attention from the real issue, which is that our brave men and women in uniform are dying and being injured every day in the middle of a civil war that can be resolved only by the Iraqis themselves," Murtha wrote in an email response.

"I volunteered for a year's duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear," Murtha added.

However, another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide.

When Saylor died in 1973, Fox attempted to succeed his boss in Congress, but was narrowly defeated by Murtha in a 1974 special election.

"Pretending to be a big war hero and boasting about having medals is a slap in the face to our veterans who were seriously wounded or killed in action," Fox was quoted as telling the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Nov. 1, 1996 edition. "He campaigned as a war hero and I've never seen any documentation that he earned any of these honors," Fox reportedly stated.

On Friday, Jan. 13, Murtha's congressional communications director provided Cybercast News Service with a copy of a letter from the commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, citing Murtha's request of Sept. 26, 1967, seeking Purple Hearts. Cybercast News Service did not authenticate the letter.

"The records of this Headquarters show that you are entitled to the Purple Heart and a Gold Star in lieu of a second Purple Heart for wounds received in action against insurgent Communist Guerrilla forces on 22 March and 7 May 1967 in the Republic of Vietnam," according to the letter signed by an individual identified only as A. Gardoni. Gardoni's title is not listed on the letter.

Cybercast News Service attempted to contact Fox for this article, but learned that the health of the 81-year-old was too poor to allow him to communicate. But in a 1996 newspaper article, Fox questioned whether Murtha deserved his Purple Hearts, alleging that there was insufficient evidence of injuries and that Murtha was never confined to a hospital.

"Of course Congressman Saylor wanted to help if he could, but there was nothing in the service record to indicate the wounds were of any severity and the documents specifically indicated that next of kin was not notified in either instance," Fox told the Herald-Standard in 1996. "We were amazed that Mr. Murtha was asking for Purple Hearts for superficial lacerations," he added.

Murtha's accounts of his Vietnam War wounds may also conflict with the available U.S. Marine medical records obtained by the media.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

"In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

"I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.

A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

Murtha, a 16-term congressman from southwestern Pennsylvania and the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, drew national attention on Nov. 17, 2005, when he called for an immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq.

The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience.

"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Murtha discussed his own combat experience as a marine intelligence officer in his 2004 autobiography, "From Vietnam to 9/11: On the Front Lines of National Security."

"I had been awake more than twenty-four hours by the time we landed. A few hours into the battle, an on-again-off-again event, I could no longer keep my eyes open. I curled up next to a bunker and fell into a deep sleep for about an hour. Even the noise of frequent gunfire didn't wake me up. (One of my fellow officers told me the next morning that when he hadn't seen me for an hour or so, he assumed I was dead,)" Murtha wrote of one of his Vietnam combat experiences on page 14 of the 2004 paperback edition of his book. Murtha's two Purple Hearts are referenced on the back of the book.

In addition to his Purple Hearts, Murtha received the Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and the Bronze Star with combat "V" for service in the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam. Murtha also served in the Marines during the Korean War but did not serve in Korea, according to his book.

'He's a phony and a liar'

Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.

... you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn't earn your purple hearts (sic) (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn't even directly related to an APC [Armored Personnel Carrier] that ran over a small antipersonnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart [sic] you even declined to explain," wrote Bailey in an open letter dated May 5, 2002.

Bailey is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. He served in the U.S. Army's 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and was awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars.

"At the time (of Murtha's alleged admission), you were feeling particularly vulnerable because it wasn't too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for 'saving your life' before the ethics committee (on Abscam-related charges). There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart [sic] and that you didn't want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam veterans that served with us," Bailey wrote in his May 2002 letter.

"You may deny that all you wish -- but you and I know that that conversation took place," he added.

In the Jan. 9 interview with Cybercast News Service Bailey affirmed the contents of his 2002 letter.

"The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he's got two Purple Hearts. He's a phony and a liar," Bailey said.

Bailey also questioned why Murtha has thus far declined to release his full military records in order to clear up the controversy.

"The Marine Corps ought to be able to produce all the orders, the medical stuff, the citations and the orders granting [the Purple Hearts] and everything else. Where is that stuff?" he asked.

According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha "produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards," and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that "the media for years has investigated 'and found nothing.'"

But Murtha's paperwork did nothing to sway Bailey's opinion.

"You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts [sic]. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get," Bailey wrote in his letter while demanding an apology from Murtha for questioning his credibility.

Murtha could end the controversy at any time, Bailey added, simply by calling a press conference and producing the evidence of his wounds.

"Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts.[sic] Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important, Jack, describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago," Bailey wrote.

"Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated noncombat-related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign -- then show me the money, Jack," Bailey added.

Murtha: 'I'm proud of my service in Vietnam'

During the 1994 congressional campaign against GOP opponent Dr. William Choby, Murtha's two Purple Hearts became a political issue.

"Explain your Purple Hearts. He (Murtha) used them to get elected," Choby charged in 1994.

In responding to the charges, Murtha claimed that he "didn't ask for the Purple Hearts.

"I'm proud of my service in Vietnam. I don't know if he (Choby) served in the service at all. I left my family and my business to serve in Vietnam. My family made great sacrifice for me to make that service in Vietnam, so I'm very proud of that," he told the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Oct. 26, 1994 edition.

"I am disappointed that a guy (Choby) would say something like that when I volunteered in the reserves and I felt it was important that I go. What's the point in all this? It's irritating," Murtha added.

Choby also challenged the validity of Murtha's Bronze Star with Combat 'V' during the 1996 congressional campaign.

"I find it very curious that Combat 'V' doesn't even exist in any of the materials he had distributed," Choby was quoted as saying in the Herald-Standard of Oct. 13, 1996. "His military record improves over the years," he added.

The Murtha controversy is reminiscent of the flap surrounding the war record of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. But while critics like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry in 2004 because of his anti-war activism of the 1970s, Murtha's three chief accusers all made their allegations years and in some cases decades before Murtha emerged last November as a prominent anti-war activist.

Choby told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 5 that Murtha's entire political career is based on his war record. "Without that credibility of those combat medals, he would have never been elected to office," Choby said.

(Monisha Bansal also contributed to this article.)

Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; abscam; anotherpurpleowie; cnsnews; exmarine; foundkerrysmedals; liar; murtha; murthamedals; phony; phonyandaliar; purpleheart; purplehearts
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To: MEG33

I can see your points. And I completely agree with your last paragraph.


301 posted on 01/14/2006 4:46:53 AM PST by moog
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To: paltz
...and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

Another "war hero" who wants to enhance his service record for political purposes. Sign the SF 180 Murtha!

302 posted on 01/14/2006 6:23:47 AM PST by afnamvet
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To: paltz

Unless Republicans wnt to be accused of attacking people's military records for political gain they should stay far away from this.


303 posted on 01/14/2006 6:25:00 AM PST by claudiustg (Go Bush! Go Sharon!)
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To: paltz

We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there.

But not the rest of the time????


304 posted on 01/14/2006 6:31:59 AM PST by showme_the_Glory (No more rhyming, and I mean it! ..Anybody got a peanut.....)
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To: TroutFishingInAmerica
"The sources for this story set off some alarm bells. Fox and Bailey were both defeated by Murtha in congressional elections. Sour grapes? I think some impartial witnesses are needed."

Defeated in part because of Murtha's running on his puffed-up war record.

305 posted on 01/14/2006 6:40:11 AM PST by Godebert
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To: BigSkyFreeper
Leave Murtha's military record alone. There's no justification for blowing the whole wad over something that happend decades ago. Murtha served his country in the military admirably. Focus on Murtha's work in Congress, starting with his voting record, and conflicting recent press and media statements.

Why is it off limits to investigate a war record, but not off limits to investigate a lack of war record? Benedict Arnold served his country bravely, but that's not why we remember him. Like Kerry, Murtha is trying to use his war record to establish credibility. I agree that Republicans can be made to look bad for questioning "this brave man's" credentials. If a Republican claims military credentials, the media does the questioning.

306 posted on 01/14/2006 7:05:56 AM PST by Cracker Jack (Conservatives love their country. Liberals love the government.)
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To: Cracker Jack

From Murtha's website....He can't even keep the timeline of his own life straight.


Born June 17, 1932, John Patrick Murtha grew up in Westmoreland County where he delivered newspapers and worked in a gas station before graduating from Ramsay High School in Mount Pleasant. He volunteered to serve in Vietnam. After his discharge from the Marines, he ran a small business in Johnstown while starting a family and attending the University of Pittsburgh on the GI bill. He graduated from Pitt in 1962 with a degree in economics and did graduate work in economics and political science at Indiana University of Pennsylvania. He served in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives from 1969 to 1974 and in 1974, he became the first combat Vietnam veteran elected to Congress


307 posted on 01/14/2006 7:14:32 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: kerryusama04
"This is out of line. Wayyyy out of line. I am not reading this article. This man is defined by what he does today."

Wrong....
Today, Murtha is a traitor or tool of traitors --- while under suspicion for ethics problems --- and we're being asked to cut him slack because he's a "hero".

It's NOT out of line when he and his defenders demand that his critics give him "credit" for his "heroic past" while he behaves as a unethical traitor in the present -- during time of war...

I suspect the facts will show that Murtha has been a lying, posing asshole for the vast majority of his worthless, lying, cheating, stealing life...

Murtha, like Kerry, Kennedy, etc, etc, prove the saying that politicians are our only inherently criminal class.

Semper Fi

308 posted on 01/14/2006 7:21:45 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Cracker Jack
Why is it off limits to investigate a war record, but not off limits to investigate a lack of war record? Benedict Arnold served his country bravely, but that's not why we remember him. Like Kerry, Murtha is trying to use his war record to establish credibility. I agree that Republicans can be made to look bad for questioning "this brave man's" credentials. If a Republican claims military credentials, the media does the questioning.

Do it on your own time. If you find anything substantive and factual, post a thread at FR, and ping me to it.

Otherwise you'll accomplish two things:

  1. You'll end up slandering a a fellow American by engaging in a smear campaign.

  2. You'll help the GOP, who seems to want to go off half-cocked on some sort of mission into the unknown, and in that process, reverse the course of the party.

309 posted on 01/14/2006 7:23:19 AM PST by BigSkyFreeper ("Tucker Carlson could reveal himself as a castrated, lesbian, rodeo clown ...wouldn't surprise me")
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To: BigSkyFreeper
Let the right wing organizations look into this. Let some witnesses say what they want to say, but the Pub party ought to stay clear of this and just say "we honor anyone who served, medals or not", and leave it at that.

Too close to the Kerry stories to bring up, even if they are true, which certainly looks like the case.

Besides this guy is a joke anyway. I don't know of anyone who's been swayed by him. He's a non issue. Just rip him for what he's doing now.

310 posted on 01/14/2006 7:29:49 AM PST by ALWAYSWELDING
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To: river rat

Supposedly, a newspaper has seen Murtha's medical records.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512020002

"A May 12, 2002, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967 and May 7, 1967. In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation."


311 posted on 01/14/2006 7:36:27 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: ALWAYSWELDING
Besides this guy is a joke anyway. I don't know of anyone who's been swayed by him. He's a non issue. Just rip him for what he's doing now.

Exactly. He's damaging whatever credibility he had to begin with with his recent and current statements. Since the day he brought up this phony bill of his on the House floor for an Iraq pullout, most people I've talked with "on the street" can't believe what they're seeing and hearing from this guy.

I'm not going to help him. He's doing fine on his own.

Quite frankly, his current statements and position on the Iraq war overshadow something that may or may not have happend decades ago anyway.

312 posted on 01/14/2006 7:45:56 AM PST by BigSkyFreeper ("Tucker Carlson could reveal himself as a castrated, lesbian, rodeo clown ...wouldn't surprise me")
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To: kerryusama04
This is out of line. Wayyyy out of line. I am not reading this article.

How do you know the article is way out of line if you don't read it?

BTW, Murtha is the one who brought up his service as a qualification for his POV.

313 posted on 01/14/2006 8:07:35 AM PST by FreeReign
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To: El Gato

Thanks, El Gato, I served in the US Army (ASA), and didn't realize that the other branches might have their own variations of medals. BTW, I could never get those US Navy ranks quite, either--as a US 2LT when I entered active duty, I was so low-ranking that I saluted all US Navy officers. Weren't too many where I served. But I honor every recipient (regardless of branch of service) of the Bronze Star. What guys like Murtha do afterwards is a different story.


314 posted on 01/14/2006 8:17:44 AM PST by CDB
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To: Wristpin
The more I learn, the more suspicious I'm becoming.....

I believe the man that said Murtha ADMITTED he didn't earn/deserve his Purple Hearts.

Murtha appears to be a poseur "hero", a corrupt politician and an ally of traitors to the Republic...

Now - I understand why he was crying on television....
He realized that the lie he had been living, and the respect he once commanded -- was OVER.

Semper Fi

315 posted on 01/14/2006 8:22:31 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: river rat

Well said! There are too many of these scumbags desecrating the honor of the silent ones. Throughout history there have been those bootlickers who actively seek rewards through connections for political purposes, most were officers, most were liars. Let their peers, those who were with them, expose them for what they are are. We owe it to the dead and the walking dead and in this case, to the Corps.

Semper Fi


316 posted on 01/14/2006 8:22:42 AM PST by Eighth Square
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To: Eighth Square
I could never prove it....but I strongly believe that all Gunts know that most Grunts bled more than either Kerry or Murtha -- and didn't work the system to get color.....

The vast majority of UN-Awarded Purple Hearts belong to the brothers that come home with the type wounds that can not be seen.....the wounds in their minds and hearts --- that haunt them to this day... They didn't get any color - yet they still live in their nightmares.

I truly despise the bastards like Kerry and Murtha that "worked" the war for personal gain and ambitions.....parading around with their Political Positions and Holier than Thou attitude --and they're LIARS at best and TRAITORS at worse.

F'em all. They are an embarrassment to the warrior ethic.

Semper Fi
317 posted on 01/14/2006 8:39:37 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: All

Marine NOT afraid to not be "PC" Ping!

Young Marine Blasts Rep. Murtha at Town Hall Meeting
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558047/posts

"Yes sir my name is Mark Seavey and I just want to thank you for coming up here. Until about a month ago I was Sergeant Mark Seavey infantry squad leader, I returned from Afghanistan. My question to you, (applause)

"Like yourself I dropped out of college two years ago to volunteer to go to Afghanistan, and I went and I came back. If I didn't have a herniated disk now I would volunteer to go to Iraq in a second with my troops, three of which have already volunteered to go to Iraq. I keep hearing you say how you talk to the troops and the troops are demoralized, and I really resent that characterization. (applause) The morale of the troops that I talk to is phenomenal, which is why my troops are volunteering to go back, despite the hardships they had to endure in Afghanistan."

Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts

Too bad the "Move on FReepers" don't have a clue!



318 posted on 01/14/2006 8:44:21 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: river rat

In this case the evidence is smack dab on Murtha's face for all to see. I don't see anything resembling war wounds.

It appears this guy worked the same formula as Kerry....One ticket punching tour, then running for political office.


319 posted on 01/14/2006 8:47:11 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

The "Move On" folks -- aren't still carrying the memories and obligations to fallen brothers that many of us are still dealing with......

The "Move On" folks -- don't have brother's names on that cold stone Wall on the Mall....

The "Move On" folks -- don't have any vested interest in exposing and destroying the lying traitorous bastards of OUR era....

Yes, I'll "Move On" just as soon at the battle is over, and the bastards are dead or dishonored and we're pissing on their graves...

The country STILL owes the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth - an unpayable debt....
THEY were singularly responsible for preventing Kerry from becoming President....
Thank GOD, they were not ready to "Move On"..

Folks - there are STILL a lot of enemies out there that DESERVE our attention -- and we OWE it to the dead that can not speak for themselves or salvage their reputations which these traitorous cowards besmirched..

Semper Fi


320 posted on 01/14/2006 9:03:55 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Wristpin
"One ticket punching tour, then running for political office."

It's sure beginning to look like that....

Such a shame --- I had more confidence in our Officer Corps to prevent crap like this in our Corps...

Semper Fi

321 posted on 01/14/2006 9:05:59 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: GSWarrior

If you run on your war record, and use it to castigate the present administration, you damn well better be able to back it up!


322 posted on 01/14/2006 9:14:17 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all our troops at home and abroad!!)
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To: Paradox
Lets NOT go there, because the fact is, there are probably thousands of honorable, good men who's PH or other medal could be called into question.

You forget, Murtha is not honorable! Once ANYONE attacks his fellow brother in arms, no matter what his heroics; no matter what his medals, he looses all rights to that brotherhood of men! He is fair game, and if found to be a liar like John Kerry, then he needs to be exposed and forced to prove he earned the medals. Otherwise they have no meaning!

323 posted on 01/14/2006 9:23:13 AM PST by Bommer (Ted Kenndy - Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life!)
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To: kellynla

My dad suffered all his life from wounds he recieved during WW2, and he got 2 purple hearts. The way these cretins obtained their awards is beginning to diminish the significance of the honor. I say make him prove it!


324 posted on 01/14/2006 9:24:54 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all our troops at home and abroad!!)
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To: Wuli

BTTT


325 posted on 01/14/2006 9:27:44 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all our troops at home and abroad!!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
A May 12, 2002, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967 and May 7, 1967. In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation."
326 posted on 01/14/2006 9:30:04 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: river rat

Amen!


327 posted on 01/14/2006 9:30:38 AM PST by Eighth Square
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To: Wristpin

Thanks Wristpin. My dad was a Navy corpman. He really got nailed at Peleliu.


328 posted on 01/14/2006 9:33:42 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker (Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all our troops at home and abroad!!)
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To: dirtboy

"I think this approach will backfire. Best to deal with Murtha in the present, not the past."


But it is so predictable. Criticize whichever adminstration is in power and prepare for an effort to dig up dirt.

It would be better for conservatives if this could stop because liberal voters are much more tolerent of dirt (or alledged dirt).


329 posted on 01/14/2006 10:07:52 AM PST by gondramB (Democracy: two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch. Liberty: a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Too bad the "Move on FReepers" don't have a clue!

There are no Move on Freeper. We want to expose Murtha treason to the whole nation, and he is doing a good job exposing it himself. However going after his military record is going to change the debate and generate sympathy toward him, even if it is true that his record is suspect. I heard on Foxnews the Marine who blasted Murtha and Jim Moran in a townhall meeting, it was great, that is what we need to expose these traitors and defeat them and not debating whether Murtha deserved his medals 35 years ago.

330 posted on 01/14/2006 10:22:06 AM PST by jveritas (The Axis of Defeatism: Left wing liberals, Buchananites, and third party voters.)
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To: gondramB

The country has 25 million living veterans who know how the system works. This isn't just political, the man is aiding the enemy in his quest to become the superstar of the left.


331 posted on 01/14/2006 10:26:00 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: kellynla

Great point Kelly, any USMC vet would be proud to show his record. BTW What's the harm in asking him about the three different stories? That's the issue, not the wounds per se, but his varying explanations that are key.


332 posted on 01/14/2006 10:26:59 AM PST by RadioCirca1970
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To: kellynla; NormsRevenge

Thanks for your excellent response. This issue should be left up to Marines like yourself, who served honorably. Marines, who would sign the 180 with a moment's hesitation. The rest of us should stay out of this Marine situation.

Your excellent response is copied here:

""Is this a wise place to go?"

Absolutely!
These "war heroes" put their "combat service" out in front and rode that reputation into Congress for decades.

Any Marine worth his salt would be proud to have the world see their war record. I AM!

Semper Fi,
Kelly



30 posted on 01/13/2006 12:10:04 PM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots. Semper Fi!)


333 posted on 01/14/2006 10:29:06 AM PST by Grampa Dave (The NY Slimes has been committing treason and sedition for decades.)
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To: Wristpin
"The country has 25 million living veterans who know how the system works. This isn't just political, the man is aiding the enemy in his quest to become the superstar of the left."

I wasn't debating the ethics of it - I was talking practicality... Most veterans who support increased used of the military overseas are already Republicans and not likely to be influenced.
334 posted on 01/14/2006 10:31:16 AM PST by gondramB (Democracy: two wolves and a lamb voting on lunch. Liberty: a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: Wristpin
A May 12, 2002, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967 and May 7, 1967. In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation."

Yet on Murtha's web site he claims he received all his Vietnam decorations in 1966 Helluva combat intel guy...got his medals before he was wounded....

335 posted on 01/14/2006 10:34:23 AM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: Segovia; Ramcat

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1558047/posts?page=1

Recap of last week's town meeting but read the whole article...the end of it is about this CNS article.


336 posted on 01/14/2006 10:42:34 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: paltz
You're only as good as your last statement.

I'm not the same person I was at 20 and neither is Murtha. Judging what one did as apposed to what they're doing now only clouds the issue and obscures the truth.

Ted Kennedy tried to convict Samuel Alito in the court of public opinion based on his past and it didn't work. He should have stuck to the legal issues.

If Murtha uses his past to justify his present arguments then he is fair game to be refuted, just as John Kerry did in '04, otherwise leave it alone.

The Liberals went after the president based on his past when he wasn't making it an issue and it backfired on them.

There is enough statements, appearances, endorsements, etc. in Murtha's present to win the argument. IMHO
337 posted on 01/14/2006 10:42:39 AM PST by TheForceOfOne
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To: flaglady47

"The attacks made on Murtha were by fellow Dem Vets or lawmakers, not Pubs. We've got nothing to lose and everything to gain by just sitting back and let this info about Murtha percolate out there. It's a freebie for the Pubs."

It might be a freebie for the Pubs.
Except this isn't just about politics.
There are lives on the line.


338 posted on 01/14/2006 10:51:46 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

Yep...very weak. 37 years with the Marines and he cites the BS boot camp award, but doesn't mention a good conduct medal during his enlisted service. From 1967 until his 1990 retirement he only received a DSM for a retirement kiss. Thats 23 years as a reserve officer without mentioning a significant award or deployment. I wonder if the Corps gave him special treatment since he was in DC putting earmarks in defense bills.


339 posted on 01/14/2006 10:53:15 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: jveritas

"There are no Move on Freepers."

How do you explain this?

There is no need to impeach Hanoi Kerry from the US Senate

He is there illegally!

WAKEUP AMERICA!

For those who "forgot" what Hanoi Kerry
did in the past read on and learn the truth.

Hanoi Kerry was still a USNR officer while he:
gave false hearsay testimony to Congress
negotiated with the enemy
helped the US lose a war
abetted in the deaths of millions
created a hostile environment for all servicemen

Why is Kerry still in the US Senate?
This is in violation of
U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3 (1868)

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress,
or elector of President and Vice President,
or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,
or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath,
as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States,
or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer
of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States,
shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same,

or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.

But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html




The FBI has proof of his giving aid and comfort to the enemies

Hanoi Kerry Timeline of a traitor
includes FBI files

May 1970
Kerry and Julia traveled to Paris, France and met with Madame Nguyen Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG), the political wing of the Vietcong, and other Viet Cong and Communist Vietnamese representatives to the Paris peace talks, a trip he now calls a "fact-finding" mission.

(U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.)

http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html




a) A person charged with absence without leave or missing movement in time of war,

or with any offense punishable by death,

may be tried at any time without limitation.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm#*%20843.%20ART.%2043.%20STATUTE%20OF%20LIMITATIONS




904. ART. 104. AIDING THE ENEMY

Any person who--

(1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or

(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or [protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly;
shall suffer death
or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.

http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/SUBCHAPTERX.html#904.104



Why are the "Move On FReepers" so careful NOT to attack hanoi kerry
head on and refuse to join in the demand to oust the traitor from the US Senate?




"Move On FReepers" "swore" klintoon, hitlery, hanoi kerry, sanbdi ber(bur)glar, al bore, jane beno,
would be prosecuted for
pardongate, chinagate, the bribes in upstate NY in the 2000 NY Senate race, waco, etc, etc,
"when" the "time was right".




"Move On FReepers" : Go back to DU where you came from!


340 posted on 01/14/2006 10:54:05 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: paltz

As a former Marine, I agree that if Murtha is a fraud he should be outed. But not like this - it looks too much like retributiuon for his weasel comments. Let it go for now, we'll blast him next election cycle. When is he up again?


341 posted on 01/14/2006 10:57:43 AM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: BigSkyFreeper
He's damaging whatever credibility he had to begin with with his recent and current statements. Since the day he brought up this phony bill of his on the House floor for an Iraq pullout, most people I've talked with "on the street" can't believe what they're seeing and hearing from this guy.

Bingo. If we bring up his medals, the media cycle will shift from "Moonbat Murtha" to "Mean Repubs". This should be handled locally in his district, next time he runs.

342 posted on 01/14/2006 11:00:02 AM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: jveritas

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=320#320

320 posted on 01/14/2006 9:03:55 AM PST by river rat


343 posted on 01/14/2006 11:01:25 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: paltz

If you run on your record, please provide the record and don't be disappointed if someone wants to verify.
Is that simple enough?


344 posted on 01/14/2006 11:02:06 AM PST by OldEagle (May you live long enough to hear the legends of your own adventures.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Excellent post.


345 posted on 01/14/2006 11:03:36 AM PST by Godebert
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To: paltz

Still good to know.


346 posted on 01/14/2006 11:05:17 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: river rat; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Jesus Criminey, you didn't have to make me cry.

Amen to that, rat, and God love ya both.


347 posted on 01/14/2006 11:05:36 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: GSWarrior
Is this a wise place to go?

No. Military personnel records are notoriously inaccurate.

348 posted on 01/14/2006 11:11:35 AM PST by TankerKC (Who will hold the NYT accountable for knowingly releasing classified info?)
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To: TankerKC; All

Trojan Horse? by Greyhawk [excerpt]

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts, they say

Let me be clear: attacks on Murtha's Vietnam record are pointless. Murtha's latest statements against the success of US troops in Iraq speak for themselves; his current behavior renders his past insignificant. Democrats, grown tired of waiting for an attack on Murtha's war record from the Right, have created their own. He's painted as a victim now - of "right wing chickenhawk" contempt for real war heroes. But those serious about standing up to the current John Murtha would be well advised to let his fellow Democrats and the mainstream media keep this war "unilateral".

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/004050.html


349 posted on 01/14/2006 11:19:23 AM PST by Fenris6 (3 Purple Hearts in 4 months w/o missing a day of work? He's either John Rambo or a Fraud)
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To: river rat; Laurita; CMS; The Sailor; txradioguy; Jet Jaguar; Defender2; OneLoyalAmerican; ...

320 posted on 01/14/2006 9:03:55 AM PST by river rat

(You may turn the other cheek,
but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=320#320

The "Move On" folks -- aren't still carrying the memories and obligations to fallen brothers that many of us are still dealing with......

The "Move On" folks -- don't have brother's names on that cold stone Wall on the Mall....

The "Move On" folks -- don't have any vested interest in exposing and destroying the lying traitorous bastards of OUR era....

Yes, I'll "Move On" just as soon at the battle is over, and the bastards are dead or dishonored and we're pissing on their graves...

The country STILL owes the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth - an unpayable debt....
THEY were singularly responsible for preventing Kerry from becoming President....
Thank GOD, they were not ready to "Move On"..

Folks - there are STILL a lot of enemies out there that DESERVE our attention -- and we OWE it to the dead that can not speak for themselves or salvage their reputations which these traitorous cowards besmirched..

Semper Fi

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=320#320
320 posted on 01/14/2006 9:03:55 AM PST by river rat

(You may turn the other cheek,
but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)


350 posted on 01/14/2006 11:33:13 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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