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Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
cnsnews.com ^ | 1/13/05 | By Marc Morano and Randy Hall

Posted on 01/13/2006 11:53:53 AM PST by paltz

(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

"[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

Murtha and Bailey, once allies, were forced to run against each other in a Democratic congressional primary in 1982 following redistricting. Murtha won the election.

Murtha has, in the past, publicly dismissed any questions about whether he deserved his two Purple Hearts, noting during his 1994 congressional campaign that "I am proud of my service in Vietnam."

In his Friday, Jan. 13, response to the Cybercast News Service investigation, Murtha again defended his military record.

"Questions about my record are clearly an attempt to distract attention from the real issue, which is that our brave men and women in uniform are dying and being injured every day in the middle of a civil war that can be resolved only by the Iraqis themselves," Murtha wrote in an email response.

"I volunteered for a year's duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear," Murtha added.

However, another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide.

When Saylor died in 1973, Fox attempted to succeed his boss in Congress, but was narrowly defeated by Murtha in a 1974 special election.

"Pretending to be a big war hero and boasting about having medals is a slap in the face to our veterans who were seriously wounded or killed in action," Fox was quoted as telling the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Nov. 1, 1996 edition. "He campaigned as a war hero and I've never seen any documentation that he earned any of these honors," Fox reportedly stated.

On Friday, Jan. 13, Murtha's congressional communications director provided Cybercast News Service with a copy of a letter from the commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, citing Murtha's request of Sept. 26, 1967, seeking Purple Hearts. Cybercast News Service did not authenticate the letter.

"The records of this Headquarters show that you are entitled to the Purple Heart and a Gold Star in lieu of a second Purple Heart for wounds received in action against insurgent Communist Guerrilla forces on 22 March and 7 May 1967 in the Republic of Vietnam," according to the letter signed by an individual identified only as A. Gardoni. Gardoni's title is not listed on the letter.

Cybercast News Service attempted to contact Fox for this article, but learned that the health of the 81-year-old was too poor to allow him to communicate. But in a 1996 newspaper article, Fox questioned whether Murtha deserved his Purple Hearts, alleging that there was insufficient evidence of injuries and that Murtha was never confined to a hospital.

"Of course Congressman Saylor wanted to help if he could, but there was nothing in the service record to indicate the wounds were of any severity and the documents specifically indicated that next of kin was not notified in either instance," Fox told the Herald-Standard in 1996. "We were amazed that Mr. Murtha was asking for Purple Hearts for superficial lacerations," he added.

Murtha's accounts of his Vietnam War wounds may also conflict with the available U.S. Marine medical records obtained by the media.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

"In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

"I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.

A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

Murtha, a 16-term congressman from southwestern Pennsylvania and the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, drew national attention on Nov. 17, 2005, when he called for an immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq.

The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience.

"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Murtha discussed his own combat experience as a marine intelligence officer in his 2004 autobiography, "From Vietnam to 9/11: On the Front Lines of National Security."

"I had been awake more than twenty-four hours by the time we landed. A few hours into the battle, an on-again-off-again event, I could no longer keep my eyes open. I curled up next to a bunker and fell into a deep sleep for about an hour. Even the noise of frequent gunfire didn't wake me up. (One of my fellow officers told me the next morning that when he hadn't seen me for an hour or so, he assumed I was dead,)" Murtha wrote of one of his Vietnam combat experiences on page 14 of the 2004 paperback edition of his book. Murtha's two Purple Hearts are referenced on the back of the book.

In addition to his Purple Hearts, Murtha received the Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and the Bronze Star with combat "V" for service in the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam. Murtha also served in the Marines during the Korean War but did not serve in Korea, according to his book.

'He's a phony and a liar'

Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.

... you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn't earn your purple hearts (sic) (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn't even directly related to an APC [Armored Personnel Carrier] that ran over a small antipersonnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart [sic] you even declined to explain," wrote Bailey in an open letter dated May 5, 2002.

Bailey is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. He served in the U.S. Army's 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and was awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars.

"At the time (of Murtha's alleged admission), you were feeling particularly vulnerable because it wasn't too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for 'saving your life' before the ethics committee (on Abscam-related charges). There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart [sic] and that you didn't want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam veterans that served with us," Bailey wrote in his May 2002 letter.

"You may deny that all you wish -- but you and I know that that conversation took place," he added.

In the Jan. 9 interview with Cybercast News Service Bailey affirmed the contents of his 2002 letter.

"The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he's got two Purple Hearts. He's a phony and a liar," Bailey said.

Bailey also questioned why Murtha has thus far declined to release his full military records in order to clear up the controversy.

"The Marine Corps ought to be able to produce all the orders, the medical stuff, the citations and the orders granting [the Purple Hearts] and everything else. Where is that stuff?" he asked.

According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha "produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards," and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that "the media for years has investigated 'and found nothing.'"

But Murtha's paperwork did nothing to sway Bailey's opinion.

"You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts [sic]. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get," Bailey wrote in his letter while demanding an apology from Murtha for questioning his credibility.

Murtha could end the controversy at any time, Bailey added, simply by calling a press conference and producing the evidence of his wounds.

"Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts.[sic] Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important, Jack, describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago," Bailey wrote.

"Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated noncombat-related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign -- then show me the money, Jack," Bailey added.

Murtha: 'I'm proud of my service in Vietnam'

During the 1994 congressional campaign against GOP opponent Dr. William Choby, Murtha's two Purple Hearts became a political issue.

"Explain your Purple Hearts. He (Murtha) used them to get elected," Choby charged in 1994.

In responding to the charges, Murtha claimed that he "didn't ask for the Purple Hearts.

"I'm proud of my service in Vietnam. I don't know if he (Choby) served in the service at all. I left my family and my business to serve in Vietnam. My family made great sacrifice for me to make that service in Vietnam, so I'm very proud of that," he told the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Oct. 26, 1994 edition.

"I am disappointed that a guy (Choby) would say something like that when I volunteered in the reserves and I felt it was important that I go. What's the point in all this? It's irritating," Murtha added.

Choby also challenged the validity of Murtha's Bronze Star with Combat 'V' during the 1996 congressional campaign.

"I find it very curious that Combat 'V' doesn't even exist in any of the materials he had distributed," Choby was quoted as saying in the Herald-Standard of Oct. 13, 1996. "His military record improves over the years," he added.

The Murtha controversy is reminiscent of the flap surrounding the war record of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. But while critics like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry in 2004 because of his anti-war activism of the 1970s, Murtha's three chief accusers all made their allegations years and in some cases decades before Murtha emerged last November as a prominent anti-war activist.

Choby told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 5 that Murtha's entire political career is based on his war record. "Without that credibility of those combat medals, he would have never been elected to office," Choby said.

(Monisha Bansal also contributed to this article.)

Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; abscam; anotherpurpleowie; cnsnews; exmarine; foundkerrysmedals; liar; murtha; murthamedals; phony; phonyandaliar; purpleheart; purplehearts
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To: RVN Airplane Driver

It's not okay to ever lie about anything, but I guess I just don't think that it serves much of a purpose to bring something up this many years after it happened. It just looks bad. If this info. has been there all along, why didn't someone say something sooner? It's almost like there are folks who know that someone has done something wrong, but don't care about it until they can find a situation where digging up dirt about that person will benefit them in some way. It's being used as revenge, and I guess it doesn't really seem right to me.

Murtha is all wrong on Iraq, and I think that he can damage his own reputation just fine without others having to dirty their hands by doing so.


451 posted on 01/15/2006 5:22:21 AM PST by fox0566
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To: paltz

Why did I read his name "Mullah" instead of Murtha?


452 posted on 01/15/2006 5:25:30 AM PST by Khashayar (No Banana Allowed!)
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To: dirtboy
A liar is a liar is a liar.

Quite frankly, the fact that Murtha is a Demoncrat, in itself, is reason to doubt any all utterances from his mouth.

Demoncrats use the military, on the whole, for as nefarious reasons as any vicious warmongers who ever existed.

453 posted on 01/15/2006 5:43:48 AM PST by Thumper1960 (The enemy within: Demoncrats and DSA.ORG Sedition is a Liberal "family value".)
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To: paltz

The lunatics at DailyKos have linked to this thread. *snicker*


454 posted on 01/15/2006 7:12:04 AM PST by veronica (....."send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do.")
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To: Thumper1960

We know that Muthra is lying about Iraq and that he has been challenged on his lies by soldiers that have returned from Iraq.

As a Military Veteran I feel I have the right to question the circumstances of any awards that any politician uses to persuade those less informed that their own voice is the only voice worth listening to, it is part of the checks and balances this nation requires to survive.

I mean after all, if a CBS news producer with no military experiance what so ever can determine from faked and forged documents that the President was lying about his military service, why shouldn't I be able to use the same or a better standard to examine the records of any EX-Marine hell bent on destroying the moral of our service men and women at war with our enemies.





455 posted on 01/15/2006 8:28:55 AM PST by usmcobra
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To: fox0566; archy; GarySpFc
"It's not okay to ever lie about anything, but I guess I just don't think that it serves much of a purpose to bring something up this many years after it happened."

Murtha reminds me of an O-6 Group Commander I served under in Vietnam. I will not mention his name or unit as one should not speak ill of the dead, but having known this Colonel gives me some insight into what kind of officer Murtha probably was in Vietnam. A few years ago, when I received word my Colonel’s passing, I tried to think of something good to say about him, but I could think of nothing. There must have been something good he did during his year tour in Vietnam, but all I could remember was how he had used his position to scam medals and further his own career; much like what Murtha appears to have done.

My Colonel, like Murtha, commanded from an air-conditioned office in one of Vietnam's beach resort cities. The units that he commanded were scattered throughout the country "From the Delta to the DMZ" so to speak, but when one of his units did battle with the enemy, he would wait until the battle was over and the area had been secured, and then he would swoop in on his personal helicopter full of reporters, journalists, and personal assistants to claim credit for the unit's success in battle. He would pose for photos with the journalists while his personal assistants gathered information to include in the awards for valor that the Colonel would claim for his leadership under fire, and his assistants would dutifully record his helicopter visits as combat assaults that would authorize Air Medals for themselves and for the Colonel. The Colonel's worthless Sergeant Major would reprimand the unit's NCOs for having a very messy battlefield and order them to hold a "police call" post haste, and then they would all load back up on their helicopter and fly back to their beach resort headquarters.

The good Colonel quickly amassed a chest full of medals doing this, but he was missing a Purple Heart for wounds received in combat, so this is what he did: A boil had developed from an ingrown hair on the Colonel’s leg right at the boot top. The Colonel went to the dispensary had the boil lanced and ordered the medic to fill out the form authorizing a Purple Heart. Such news travels fast, and within thirty days of this incident, every soldier in the Colonel’s command throughout the country knew what the Colonel had done to receive a Purple Heart.

An officer cannot do such things as this Colonel did without the troops knowing about it, and when they find out, they lose any respect that they may have for him. Any man who will lie, cheat, and steal medals as this Colonel, John Kerry, and Murtha apparently did will not hesitate to lie, cheat, and steal in any other situation that arises. Murtha’s medals and his ABSCAM connection are more than likely only the tip of the iceberg in his life time record of dishonesty. Murtha’s current lapses of integrity are not a recent event; they are indications of a possible lifetime of duplicity and questionable integrity.

456 posted on 01/15/2006 8:31:20 AM PST by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: RexBeach

Maybe the Dems are doing this in the name of the GOP. Sounds like old school Commie Disinformation.
We shouldnt do this, let this jerks actions today speak volumes about his true intent, the deaths of US service people to bring about shame and the possible downfall of GWB.


457 posted on 01/15/2006 8:35:11 AM PST by Yorlik803 ( Don't crush that Dwarf,hand me the pliers)
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To: paltz

Sounds like Murtha is as big a war hero as McCain.


458 posted on 01/15/2006 8:38:03 AM PST by John D
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To: paltz

Idiots who didn't serve trying to sully someone who did for political gains.

These same folks who say if he came out with "proof" would not accept it anyway.

People who didn't serve who criticize war records of people who put their life on line while the criticizers kept their fat asses pinned to couches are vermin in my opinion.


459 posted on 01/15/2006 8:43:46 AM PST by sakic
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To: RVN Airplane Driver
I suspect few have been in the military and even fewer in a combat theater. FYI...we take being a phony and collecting medals not earned very seriously

I couldn't agree more. There is something fishy about a combat vet saying what he has lately. He should know from having been on the ground, that politicians have little practical impact in the field. His mouth is doing nothing for the soldiers on the ground and only makes our leadership look even more at odds with one another- anyone with children knows you have to have a united front to take on any mission.

While leadership skills have evolved since his time, the one that he doesn't display is support for the mission that "has" to be accomplished. If he truly is a team player, he'd really get down to business and offer his assistance to the decision makers in the military, not the journalists from the press.

Whatever time he put in wearing the uniform has been wiped away by lurking in congress for more than 30 years!

460 posted on 01/15/2006 8:45:39 AM PST by DilJective (Proudly serving in the US Army)
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To: Laurita; CMS; The Sailor; txradioguy; Jet Jaguar; Defender2; OneLoyalAmerican; bkwells; ...
EVERYONE READING THIS TAKE NOTE
THE "Move On FReepers" ARE OUT
TO SABOTAGE the 2006 AND 2008 ELECTIONS

I'll bet they were behind the "movement" to get
"the white flag ad" pulled by the GOP.


461 posted on 01/15/2006 8:46:20 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: sakic
I have all the respect for his service, and accept the fact that he has earned those medals. I don't respect someone that needs to remind us everyday they are a hero and represents to us they are an expert.

I did my tour in Vietnam and sure did not want to be there. I am not an expert and am not a hero. I won't pretend that because my number came up in the lottery that I am special. I do want peoples respect that I served and did my job and I expect that the kids that are currently doing their job be supported and respected.

I know these highly trained troops know an awful lot more than I about their equipment and the level of success they are achieving than an old retired marine.

462 posted on 01/15/2006 8:57:08 AM PST by JIM O
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To: veronica

"The lunatics at DailyKos have linked to this thread. *snicker*"

http://stophanoikerry.150m.com

hanoi kerry and his own War Crimes in Vietnam

He was in command of a Swift Boat
and ordered his men to do these things.
Listen to this 1971 audio clip in hanoi kerry's own words.

Listen Here

http://www.streamload.com/jmstein77/Kerry2.mp3

hanoi kerry went before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in 1971
to accuse the United States military
of committing massive numbers of war crimes in Vietnam.

hanoi kerry 1971 TESTIMONY

http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia Thursday, April 22, 1971
United States Senate, Committee on Foreign Relations, Washington, D.C.


463 posted on 01/15/2006 8:58:10 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

BTTT


464 posted on 01/15/2006 8:58:18 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: JIM O

Fair enough and thanks for your service.


465 posted on 01/15/2006 8:58:48 AM PST by sakic
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Good One Tonk!!!


466 posted on 01/15/2006 9:06:03 AM PST by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

BTTT


467 posted on 01/15/2006 9:06:11 AM PST by afnamvet
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
I'll always stand by your side...


468 posted on 01/15/2006 9:12:49 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Perfect Picture, Tonk! Thank you for Helping me to Never Forget how Close we Came to having this Wicked man as our President!
469 posted on 01/15/2006 9:16:24 AM PST by Kitty Mittens
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

I'd bet that the white flag ad was pulled simply because the Dems caved and most of them distanced themselves from Murtha. You will see the white flag ad or some new ad with the same message in October, and possibly September. How hard-hitting it is and how far ahead of the election it starts running will depend on how well things are going in Iraq. If it's very stable and troop levels are down significantly, it will be very harsh.


470 posted on 01/15/2006 9:19:55 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: DJ Taylor
The Colonel's worthless Sergeant Major would reprimand the unit's NCOs for having a very messy battlefield and order them to hold a "police call" post haste, and then they would all load back up on their helicopter and fly back to their beach resort headquarters.

Sad to say these clowns are still around. In a couple os Squadrons I was the only SNCO in the unit that has been on the front line and I would have listening to herotic adventures of REMF e-9s. he only thing they had going for them is the art of B.S., no substance...Sitting their and listining to these Sgt York want-to-bes would piss me off like you wouldn't believe.


471 posted on 01/15/2006 9:25:35 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: DJ Taylor
The Colonel's worthless Sergeant Major would reprimand the unit's NCOs for having a very messy battlefield and order them to hold a "police call" post haste, and then they would all load back up on their helicopter and fly back to their beach resort headquarters.

Sad to say these clowns are still around. In a couple of Squadrons, I was the only SNCO in the unit that has been on the front line and I would have to listen to herotic adventures of REMF E-9s. The, only thing they had going for them is the art of B.S., no substance...Sitting there and listining to these Sgt York want-to-bes would piss me off like you wouldn't believe.


472 posted on 01/15/2006 9:30:30 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: paltz

It is predictable that he would be discredited. After all, he does not support the agenda of those who benefit from the war in Iraq. The pattern of such character assassinations are always the same: first, discredit anything positive or good that he has done (war hero). Second, make him out to be insane, or at least a bit flaky.
Murtha is courageous (to speak out against the US staying in Iraq) and sane (it would be insane to want to stay in Iraq much longer, since the US has gained nothing from the war and already it's cost a trillion dollars and over 2000 Americans and 30,000 to 100,000 Iraqis killed, the latter mostly civilians).


473 posted on 01/15/2006 9:36:14 AM PST by cmppc
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To: paltz
All commun...I mean democrats are liars.

Sign the 180 Murtha. Let's see what you've got.

474 posted on 01/15/2006 9:41:01 AM PST by onedoug
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To: Onelifetogive
Sheesh, is there not one actual hero in the who stupid Dim party?

Wes Clark. His Silver Star is the real deal. He volunteered to go to Vietnam and lead an infantry company, and he was hit four times by a sniper during an ambush. He propped himself up against a tree and directed the counterattack. And then he served an entire career.

And the Dems threw him overboard for John Kerry, who did four months, openly betrayed our nation, and then spent the next quarter century (while Wes Clark was serving the U.S. Army) undermining our national defense at every opportunity.

That tells you everything you need to know about their party. Wes Clark is a scary guy, but throwing him under the bus and then calling John Kerry a war hero is beyond the pale.

475 posted on 01/15/2006 9:43:38 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: DJ Taylor
The Colonel's worthless Sergeant Major would reprimand the unit's NCOs for having a very messy battlefield and order them to hold a "police call" post haste, and then they would all load back up on their helicopter and fly back to their beach resort headquarters.

I just came back from church, and after all these years I got pissed off again after reading your post.
476 posted on 01/15/2006 9:44:14 AM PST by GarySpFc (De Oppresso Liber)
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To: cmppc

TROLL ALERT....Now like a good little boy get on back to DU...there are men here having a discussion and you wouldn't understand...


477 posted on 01/15/2006 9:48:37 AM PST by RVN Airplane Driver (Most Americans are so spoiled with freedom they have no idea what it takes to earn and keep it.)
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To: cmppc
It is predictable that he would be discredited. After all, he does not support the agenda of those who benefit from the war in Iraq.

I warn my wife about people telling war stories...More often (about 75%) then not they are full of it. I haven't yet seen a first-account witness come foward and defend Murtha.


478 posted on 01/15/2006 9:54:06 AM PST by darkwing104 (Let's get dangerous)
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To: H. Paul Pressler IV
How many Purple Hearts did you receive in Viet Nam?

I don't think it's productive for us to go after Murtha's PH record, but I'd like to note this for the record: In Late 2003, I was asking Freepers who wanted to look into John Kerry's record how many medals they had earned in Vietnam.

So...first you should be given pause because there may be fire producing this smoke, just like there was with Kerry.

And second, maybe you should pause because we who serve in the nation's armed forces serve the people, all the people, not just the ones who have served or won medals, and the citizenry has every right to judge that service.

479 posted on 01/15/2006 9:55:30 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: jjmcgo; RVN Airplane Driver
I have not received a PH (or even served in combat) but I know one guy who refused a PH. He was put in for it by his CO, and when he found out about it he asked him to rescind it. He had taken a small piece of shrapnel (which is still in his arm) during a firefight, and he felt it was not deserving of a medal. Then there's the case of Max Cleland, who was given a PH because his higher-ups considered it the right thing to do for a man so profoundly wounded, even though he was clearly not a victim of enemy action.

So basically, I find it suspicious any time I hear of someone working their chain of command to get a PH.

480 posted on 01/15/2006 10:10:08 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: DJ Taylor
..You nailed it DJ.
481 posted on 01/15/2006 10:10:25 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("fake but accurate": NY Times)
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To: gaspar
I would like to know what "served with honor in Viet Nam" means. If it meant anything than at least a thousand names on the Wall in D.C. do not belong there.

Huh?

482 posted on 01/15/2006 10:19:37 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

This is a sad, but perfect depiction of the Dems. Whoever created this picture, they got right.

I hope it's OK to repost it at other opportune times.

483 posted on 01/15/2006 10:20:45 AM PST by FairOpinion
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To: Javelina; kellynla
I'm a Marine. If I ever do run for office (doubt that I will), I won't be showing my military records to any of my enemies. It's none of their business. I don't blame him.

Other than the fact that I'm Air Force, i could have written that statement, Javelina. Of course, I can see Kelly's point, because Murtha's claim to fame is being a "war hero," and his whole Iraq shtick is based on the idea that he knows what he's talking about because he was the man in 'Nam.

484 posted on 01/15/2006 10:25:33 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: bnelson44
Trying to find fault in someone's war service is not honorable.

It's something that depends on the circumstances. Kerry, for instance, needed to be exposed.

485 posted on 01/15/2006 10:26:44 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT; paltz
Let me also note this: Benedict Arnold had a fantastic war record.

Let's deal with Murtha's treasonous behavior now. This line of attack has a horrible downside and would gain no real traction. Everybody with a brain knows this guy is an idiot. The panel on Brit Hume laughed out loud at him a few weeks ago because he was saying the trrops coming out of Iraq could be put "close to the region" in Okinawa!

Murtha and every Dem who supports him is shooting at their own foot on full auto. Let's not jump in front of the bullets for them.

486 posted on 01/15/2006 10:32:32 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
My dad refused a Purple Heart in WWII, because he was ashamed to take one with such a slight wound when so many of his fellow soldiers were so seriously hurt.


"Just gimme the aspirin. I already gotta Purple Heart."

487 posted on 01/15/2006 10:38:14 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: cmppc

NB4ZOT


488 posted on 01/15/2006 10:44:13 AM PST by ARealMothersSonForever
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To: DJ Taylor

>>>>likely only the tip of the iceberg

Bump bump

Murtha's support of Wilson's war while on the Defense Appropriations subcommittee created the funding that flowed RIGHT TO Sheik Rahman's cell and flowed right back to our WTC '93.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1489385/posts
My Enemy's Enemy by George Crile


489 posted on 01/15/2006 10:45:44 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Kitty Mittens
Great about page Kitty.

Bush Sr was a good man. Like father like son. I didn't always agree with his politics but I always respected him. He never talked about his service in the Pacific theater during WWII where his plane was shot down landing him in the drink after a combat mission.

The same could be said of Bob Dole. Wounded and spent months in rehab. His hand is withered and useless as a result. No one questions Dole's PH. His withered hand is testimony to his bravery.

These honorable men may have disagreed with how best to proceed during war. But you can rest assured that once the battle was engaged they saluted and said "aye aye sir" and did their damnest to carry out the mission.

Unlike the Kerrys and Murthas of the world.


490 posted on 01/15/2006 11:07:33 AM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("fake but accurate": NY Times)
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To: cmppc

"(war hero)?"

Hanoi Kerry Timeline of a traitor
includes FBI files

May 1970
Kerry and Julia traveled to Paris, France and met with Madame Nguyen Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG), the political wing of the Vietcong, and other Viet Cong and Communist Vietnamese representatives to the Paris peace talks, a trip he now calls a "fact-finding" mission.

(U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.)

http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html





491 posted on 01/15/2006 11:10:06 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: cmppc
Free online version of
hanoi kerry's playbook "The New Soldier"
You can read it online right now.


492 posted on 01/15/2006 11:15:49 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Be wary of the "Move On FReepers" who scream and howl "Move On Tonk, Get Over It")
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To: AnAmericanMother

Your dad was a hero. I'm told my grandfather turned down a battlefield commission.


493 posted on 01/15/2006 11:24:25 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: kellynla

I agree. If you're going to ride your war record and hero status to the public trough of Congress, then let's see the real records.


494 posted on 01/15/2006 11:28:45 AM PST by gotribe (Hillary: Accessory to Rape)
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To: sakic
I am not in favor of going after Murtha's war record, which would be at best a dud and at worst shooting ourselves in the foot. That said...

People who didn't serve who criticize war records of people who put their life on line while the criticizers kept their fat asses pinned to couches are vermin in my opinion.

By your standard, the investigative reporter who helped J.G. Burkett bust fake war heroes and write Stolen Valor is "vermin." Last time I checked, we military types served the civilians, not the other way 'round. If someone took the system the United States uses to reward heroes proved in liberating strife and perverted it for his own selfish gain, I support any civilian who would expose that dishonor.

495 posted on 01/15/2006 11:38:12 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: JIM O
I know these highly trained troops know an awful lot more than I about their equipment and the level of success they are achieving than an old retired marine.

Some of his statements about the nature of the mission show that he has no idea what the Corps (and the other services) have been doing to refine doctrine over the last 30 years. It wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't know who John Boyd is. Most people don't, but a guypassing himself of as an expert on the Marine Corps should, and I bet he has no idea who Boyd is or how his theories have revolutionized the Corps.

496 posted on 01/15/2006 11:41:58 AM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

thanks for the ping


497 posted on 01/15/2006 11:55:59 AM PST by vigilante2 (I'm the proud parent of a soldier)
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To: Mr. Silverback

When mutha started hanging out with code pink he's fair game!

The GOP controls the White House and the Congress

President Bush does not have to worry about re-election

So bring back the white flag ad,
expose the frauds,
and demand access to ALL military records!

AND THROW HANOI KERRY out of the US Senate
BEFORE he run's in '06!


498 posted on 01/15/2006 11:58:33 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Never Forget)
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To: Prime Choice; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

ping


499 posted on 01/15/2006 12:08:27 PM PST by Seadog Bytes (Benedict Arnold was a 'war hero' too... before he became a TRAITOR.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Thanks for the ping!


500 posted on 01/15/2006 12:40:57 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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