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Murtha's War Hero Status Called Into Question
cnsnews.com ^ | 1/13/05 | By Marc Morano and Randy Hall

Posted on 01/13/2006 11:53:53 AM PST by paltz

(CNSNews.com) - Having ascended to the national stage as one of the most vocal critics of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq, Pennsylvania Democratic Congressman John Murtha has long downplayed the controversy and the bitterness surrounding the two Purple Hearts he was awarded for military service in Vietnam.

Murtha is a retired marine and was the first Vietnam combat veteran elected to Congress. Since 1967, there have been at least three different accounts of the injuries that purportedly earned Murtha his Purple Hearts. Those accounts also appear to conflict with the limited military records that are available, and Murtha has thus far refused to release his own military records.

A Cybercast News Service investigation also reveals that one of Murtha's former Democratic congressional colleagues and a fellow decorated Vietnam veteran, Don Bailey of Pennsylvania, alleges that Murtha admitted during an emotional conversation on the floor of the U.S. House in the early 1980s that he did not deserve his Purple Hearts.

"[Murtha] is putting himself forward as some combat veteran with serious wounds and he's using that and it's dishonest and it's wrong," Bailey told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 9. Murtha served in the Marines on active duty and in the reserves from 1952 until his retirement as a colonel in 1990. He volunteered for service in Vietnam and was a First Marine Regiment intelligence officer in 1966 and 1967.

Murtha and Bailey, once allies, were forced to run against each other in a Democratic congressional primary in 1982 following redistricting. Murtha won the election.

Murtha has, in the past, publicly dismissed any questions about whether he deserved his two Purple Hearts, noting during his 1994 congressional campaign that "I am proud of my service in Vietnam."

In his Friday, Jan. 13, response to the Cybercast News Service investigation, Murtha again defended his military record.

"Questions about my record are clearly an attempt to distract attention from the real issue, which is that our brave men and women in uniform are dying and being injured every day in the middle of a civil war that can be resolved only by the Iraqis themselves," Murtha wrote in an email response.

"I volunteered for a year's duty in Vietnam. I was out in the field almost every single day. We took heavy casualties in my regiment the year that I was there. In my fitness reports, I was rated No. 1. My record is clear," Murtha added.

However, another source, World War II Navy veteran Harry M. Fox, previously indicated that Murtha in 1968 personally asked Fox's boss, then-U.S. Rep. John Saylor (R-Pa.), for assistance in obtaining the Purple Hearts, but was turned down because Saylor's office determined that Murtha lacked sufficient evidence of wounds. Murtha later challenged Saylor for his House seat in 1968 and lost. Fox said he personally viewed Murtha's military records in 1968 as Saylor's aide.

When Saylor died in 1973, Fox attempted to succeed his boss in Congress, but was narrowly defeated by Murtha in a 1974 special election.

"Pretending to be a big war hero and boasting about having medals is a slap in the face to our veterans who were seriously wounded or killed in action," Fox was quoted as telling the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Nov. 1, 1996 edition. "He campaigned as a war hero and I've never seen any documentation that he earned any of these honors," Fox reportedly stated.

On Friday, Jan. 13, Murtha's congressional communications director provided Cybercast News Service with a copy of a letter from the commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, citing Murtha's request of Sept. 26, 1967, seeking Purple Hearts. Cybercast News Service did not authenticate the letter.

"The records of this Headquarters show that you are entitled to the Purple Heart and a Gold Star in lieu of a second Purple Heart for wounds received in action against insurgent Communist Guerrilla forces on 22 March and 7 May 1967 in the Republic of Vietnam," according to the letter signed by an individual identified only as A. Gardoni. Gardoni's title is not listed on the letter.

Cybercast News Service attempted to contact Fox for this article, but learned that the health of the 81-year-old was too poor to allow him to communicate. But in a 1996 newspaper article, Fox questioned whether Murtha deserved his Purple Hearts, alleging that there was insufficient evidence of injuries and that Murtha was never confined to a hospital.

"Of course Congressman Saylor wanted to help if he could, but there was nothing in the service record to indicate the wounds were of any severity and the documents specifically indicated that next of kin was not notified in either instance," Fox told the Herald-Standard in 1996. "We were amazed that Mr. Murtha was asking for Purple Hearts for superficial lacerations," he added.

Murtha's accounts of his Vietnam War wounds may also conflict with the available U.S. Marine medical records obtained by the media.

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on May 12, 2002, reported that "Marine Corps casualty records show that Murtha was injured in 'hostile' actions near Danang, Vietnam, on March 22, 1967, and May 7, 1967.

"In the first incident, his right cheek was lacerated, and in the second, he was lacerated above his left eye. Neither injury required evacuation," the Post-Gazette reported.

But an Oct. 26, 1994, article in the Herald-Standard quoted Murtha as describing two different injuries.

"I was wounded in the arm with shrapnel from a bullet that hit the motor mount of a helicopter. In the other, my knee was banged up and my arm was banged up when a helicopter was shot down from a very few feet," Murtha told the Herald-Standard.

A June 1, 1967 report in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat quoted a letter that the newspaper indicated was sent by Murtha to his wife that same year. The letter apparently detailed yet another version of how Murtha qualified for one of his Purple Hearts. According to the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat, Murtha's injuries involved his being "struck in the ankle" by a "shot that ricocheted off the helicopter."

Murtha, a 16-term congressman from southwestern Pennsylvania and the senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, drew national attention on Nov. 17, 2005, when he called for an immediate withdrawal of American forces from Iraq.

The Vietnam veteran even took a swipe at President Bush and Vice President Cheney, neither of whom have actual combat experience.

"I like guys who've never been there, who criticize us who've been there," Murtha said. "I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and sent people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions that what may need to be done."

Murtha discussed his own combat experience as a marine intelligence officer in his 2004 autobiography, "From Vietnam to 9/11: On the Front Lines of National Security."

"I had been awake more than twenty-four hours by the time we landed. A few hours into the battle, an on-again-off-again event, I could no longer keep my eyes open. I curled up next to a bunker and fell into a deep sleep for about an hour. Even the noise of frequent gunfire didn't wake me up. (One of my fellow officers told me the next morning that when he hadn't seen me for an hour or so, he assumed I was dead,)" Murtha wrote of one of his Vietnam combat experiences on page 14 of the 2004 paperback edition of his book. Murtha's two Purple Hearts are referenced on the back of the book.

In addition to his Purple Hearts, Murtha received the Vietnamese Cross for Gallantry and the Bronze Star with combat "V" for service in the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam. Murtha also served in the Marines during the Korean War but did not serve in Korea, according to his book.

'He's a phony and a liar'

Bailey said during the time Murtha was being investigated for his role in the Abscam FBI sting in 1980, Murtha made a confession on the House floor.

... you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn't earn your purple hearts (sic) (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn't even directly related to an APC [Armored Personnel Carrier] that ran over a small antipersonnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart [sic] you even declined to explain," wrote Bailey in an open letter dated May 5, 2002.

Bailey is also a decorated Vietnam combat veteran. He served in the U.S. Army's 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions and was awarded a Silver Star and three Bronze Stars.

"At the time (of Murtha's alleged admission), you were feeling particularly vulnerable because it wasn't too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for 'saving your life' before the ethics committee (on Abscam-related charges). There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart [sic] and that you didn't want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam veterans that served with us," Bailey wrote in his May 2002 letter.

"You may deny that all you wish -- but you and I know that that conversation took place," he added.

In the Jan. 9 interview with Cybercast News Service Bailey affirmed the contents of his 2002 letter.

"The issue here is this idea or pretense that [Murtha] knows combat and he's got two Purple Hearts. He's a phony and a liar," Bailey said.

Bailey also questioned why Murtha has thus far declined to release his full military records in order to clear up the controversy.

"The Marine Corps ought to be able to produce all the orders, the medical stuff, the citations and the orders granting [the Purple Hearts] and everything else. Where is that stuff?" he asked.

According to a May 16, 2002, edition of the Washington, Pa., Observer-Reporter, Murtha "produced military paperwork indicating he was entitled to the awards," and a Murtha spokesperson was quoted as saying that "the media for years has investigated 'and found nothing.'"

But Murtha's paperwork did nothing to sway Bailey's opinion.

"You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts [sic]. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get," Bailey wrote in his letter while demanding an apology from Murtha for questioning his credibility.

Murtha could end the controversy at any time, Bailey added, simply by calling a press conference and producing the evidence of his wounds.

"Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts.[sic] Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important, Jack, describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago," Bailey wrote.

"Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated noncombat-related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign -- then show me the money, Jack," Bailey added.

Murtha: 'I'm proud of my service in Vietnam'

During the 1994 congressional campaign against GOP opponent Dr. William Choby, Murtha's two Purple Hearts became a political issue.

"Explain your Purple Hearts. He (Murtha) used them to get elected," Choby charged in 1994.

In responding to the charges, Murtha claimed that he "didn't ask for the Purple Hearts.

"I'm proud of my service in Vietnam. I don't know if he (Choby) served in the service at all. I left my family and my business to serve in Vietnam. My family made great sacrifice for me to make that service in Vietnam, so I'm very proud of that," he told the Uniontown Herald-Standard in the newspaper's Oct. 26, 1994 edition.

"I am disappointed that a guy (Choby) would say something like that when I volunteered in the reserves and I felt it was important that I go. What's the point in all this? It's irritating," Murtha added.

Choby also challenged the validity of Murtha's Bronze Star with Combat 'V' during the 1996 congressional campaign.

"I find it very curious that Combat 'V' doesn't even exist in any of the materials he had distributed," Choby was quoted as saying in the Herald-Standard of Oct. 13, 1996. "His military record improves over the years," he added.

The Murtha controversy is reminiscent of the flap surrounding the war record of 2004 Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry. But while critics like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry in 2004 because of his anti-war activism of the 1970s, Murtha's three chief accusers all made their allegations years and in some cases decades before Murtha emerged last November as a prominent anti-war activist.

Choby told Cybercast News Service on Jan. 5 that Murtha's entire political career is based on his war record. "Without that credibility of those combat medals, he would have never been elected to office," Choby said.

(Monisha Bansal also contributed to this article.)

Read Article About Murtha's Links to Abscam


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 109th; abscam; anotherpurpleowie; cnsnews; exmarine; foundkerrysmedals; liar; murtha; murthamedals; phony; phonyandaliar; purpleheart; purplehearts
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To: river rat
I know were you are coming from, brother, most of my cousins and friends are Marines, I didn't serve in I Corps and I wasn't a Marine.

The point I was trying to make is why would an Intellegence Officer be in a place that he was not needed until he was needed.

Both you and I know, as does every Viet Nam Vet, that a lot of REMF's went forward to get some gold, in the Army it was the CIB, in the Marines it was (?), I don't know.

The point I trying to make is that a DD 214, except for the discharge code proves nothing, it is mearly a list.

551 posted on 01/16/2006 3:01:05 PM PST by Little Bill (A 37%'r, a Red Spot on a Blue State, rats are evil.)
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To: kellynla
Purple Heart commendations aren't Boy Scout merit badges. They are not "requested"; they are EARNED and AWARDED at the time of injury.

Agreed in principle...and I used to think so. But then along came John F. Kerry.

He really gamed the system.

552 posted on 01/16/2006 4:25:14 PM PST by Paul Ross (My idea of American policy toward the Soviet Union is simple...It is this, 'We win and they lose.')
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To: TheWormster
If you think their policies will be bad for the country, then say so and say why.

There are many, and I am one, that think policies are not as important as character.

553 posted on 01/16/2006 8:16:39 PM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("fake but accurate": NY Times)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Why are you asking me questions when you haven't answered any of mine? Answering a specific question with one of your prepared skyscrapers that repeats the info that prompted the question is simply rude and reeks of bovine effluents. If you value the troops so much, why are you giving the business to an Air Force vet when he asks a question or two?

Answering someone's questions is easy. Watch me do it:

Why do you assume the US Supreme Court won't do the right thing. Have you lost faith in the U.S. Constitution

No I haven't. Now...where, oh where, is there anything that says the SCOTUS can decide to remove a Senator? And why do you keep citing the 14th Amendment without noticing Sec 5? It reads: "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." SCOTUS jurisdiction would seem to contradict section 5...can you cite law otherwise?

Again, show me proof where I said they were traitors?

I did that in post 537. The evidence I offered is all direct quotes. Saying you haven't done it is like a guy saying, "I didn't call your Mom a prostitute, I just said she has sex with strange men and charges them for it."

Source please

I have no direct source, only speculation...but I advanced my speculation in terms that made it clear it was speculation. As great as the Swiftees were (and I was on board early) there is no way that:

1. 48% of the American people thought, "Well, he's a traitorous coward, but I like him for President"

2. There weren't any swing voters thinking "I think that swift boat stuff is a smear job, but that Kerry guy is an idiot. I'll vote for Bush."

So that easily adds up to over 50% of the electorate that would look dimly on an effort to remove Kerry.

There, now I've shown you how to answer questions. Am I going to get more skyscraper blab, or are you going to show me the respect I deserve as an American fighting man?

554 posted on 01/16/2006 8:41:38 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer?--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"or are you going to show me the respect I deserve as an American fighting man?"

Thank You for your service to our country.


555 posted on 01/16/2006 9:00:51 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
You're welcome of course.

But you still haven't answered my questions.

556 posted on 01/16/2006 9:20:43 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer?--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Do me a favor, ask some of the other vets on this thread,
what they think should be done about hanoi kerry and murtha.

I'll be gone tomorrow doing my own "support the troops"
on base, as I have done every single week,
often several times a week, since Oct 2001.

I'll check late tomorrow afternoon to see the responses
you have gotten from vets who think like I do.

There are plenty of them to ask just on this thread alone.









557 posted on 01/16/2006 10:00:28 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (SEMPER PARATUS -- ALWAYS READY)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
You're dodging me again. Sure, you've improved (thanks for doing away with the skyscrapers) but you're still dodging.

I asked you to cite the law that gives the SCOTUS jurisdiction. You have not.

I asked you to explain why your plan would actually work and why it would help the troops if we replaced this brain dead traitor with another brain dead traitor when we could be using the same energy for other things. You have not answered. Sure, you say it's the law of the land, but we have to "get a conviction" so to speak and you won't say how we'd accomplish it.

You have not answered any of my perfectly valid questions with a real answer. And don't give me this "ask the other vets" crap. So a bunch of us are mad at Murtha and Kerry. So what? To parahrase Tom Cruise in A Few Good Men, it doesn't matter how we feel, it matters what we can do. Having some angry vet ride me because I like to use tactics that actually freakin' work isn't going to change anything.

558 posted on 01/16/2006 10:27:46 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
I didn't say it wasn't the law. I said that it wouldn't help anything. Kerry goes out, another troop-hating Mass Dem goes in. The public, 48% of which voted for Kerry to be C-in-C, starts wondering what the heck we're doing. We pay at the ballot box. No help for the troops, the nation or consevatism. And that's assuming your plan works. If it doesn't work, we get all the downside and Kerry gets to play the poor martyr stoically putting up wiith our persecution. Screw that!
Please, go ahead. Tell me how you will get the Congress (notice section 5) to do this. Tell me how all the folks who voted for Kerry (and all those who voted for Bush and didn't believe the Swiftees, like about 10% of the electorate) will suddenly decide that he's Benedict Arnold. Tell me how it will help any soldier anywhere to replace Kerry with another brain dead Massachusetss pol.

But most of all, tell me why people who want to hit just as hard on a different center of gravity are not merely wrong, but traitors. I'm still waiting for a proper explanation of that.


543 posted on 01/16/2006 2:53:28 PM EST by Mr. Silverback ("Do they sell walls there?"--Paris Hilton asks about Wal-Mart.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not a veteran. My reply probably won't qualify without any Kerry/Dowd/Sheehan/Murtha moral authority. I was only created by a Marine, procreated with a Marine and created a Marine.

"Tell me how it will help any soldier anywhere to replace Kerry with another brain dead Massachusetss pol."

What an insult to SVPFT.


559 posted on 01/17/2006 9:01:56 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: paltz

I stayed out of the Kerry medal scandal and intend to stay out of this one.


560 posted on 01/17/2006 9:53:49 AM PST by GunnyBob
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To: usmcobra
You are correct. Murtha regularly waves his Purple Hearts about (metaphorically) as a sort of bloody shirt that immunizes him from the sort of scathing criticism his alcohol fueled bleating so richly deserve. And his district, if the voters there had any integrity, would find some other hack to represent them.
561 posted on 01/17/2006 12:04:46 PM PST by robowombat
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To: Mr. Silverback



"If you value the troops so much,"


Now that I have returned home, from "my weekly support of the troops",
that I have done every single week since Oct 2001, and often
times several times a week on base
I'll answer your questions.

I see you did not ask any of the other vets on this thread
what they thought like I asked you.



"Tell me how it will help any soldier anywhere to replace Kerry with
another brain dead Massachusetss pol."


JOHN O'NEILL Viet Nam Vet GETS IT
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1526505/posts

"...To us, Mr. Kerry's comments meant that no one should do to Mr. Murtha
that which Mr. Kerry did to all of us and our fellow Vietnam veterans,
living and dead. Mr. Kerry's disgraceful comments on many occasions in 1971
(while we were locked in combat),
claiming falsely that we were "murdering" hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese
and committing rape and mayhem on a daily basis,
are a part of the public record for which he has never apologized.
This might be called "Kerrying" our soldiers..."


"Yes, indeed- John Kerry thinks it's 1971 all over again. Yesterday, on "Face the Nation"
John Kerry once again slams American troops- Check it out-
"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going
into homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children,
you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the-of-the historical customs, religious customs."
Here is the transcript for "Face the Nation"-
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_120405.pdf
You will find this statement at the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5.


"The public, 48% of which voted for Kerry to be C-in-C, starts wondering what the heck we're doing."



Now think about the active duty troops who frequent Free Republic,
who cares what the 48% liberals think.

Please get your priorities straight.

hanoi kerry lost, plain and simple



"Tell me how all the folks who voted for Kerry
(and all those who voted for Bush

and didn't believe the Swiftees,

like about 10% of the electorate) will suddenly decide that he's Benedict Arnold."



Karl Rove KNOWS who really won the election.

Rove Credits Swiftvets With 'Energizing' Bush Vote (Thank You Karl Rove!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345603/posts



"I asked you to cite the law that gives the SCOTUS jurisdiction. You have not."


You need to cite YOUR source that says the US Supreme Court does not have
jurisdiction over
U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3 (1868)

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress,
or elector of President and Vice President,
or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States,
or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath,
as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States,
or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer
of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States,
shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same,

or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.

But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html



"Sure, you say it's the law of the land, but we have to "get a conviction"
so to speak and you won't say how we'd accomplish it."



The FBI has proof of his giving aid and comfort to the enemies

Hanoi Kerry Timeline of a traitor
includes FBI files

May 1970
Kerry and Julia traveled to Paris, France and met with Madame Nguyen Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG), the political wing of the Vietcong, and other Viet Cong and Communist Vietnamese representatives to the Paris peace talks, a trip he now calls a "fact-finding" mission.

(U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.)

http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html




a) A person charged with absence without leave or missing movement in time of war,

or with any offense punishable by death,

may be tried at any time without limitation.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm#*%20843.%20ART.%2043.%20STATUTE%20OF%20LIMITATIONS




904. ART. 104. AIDING THE ENEMY

Any person who--

(1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or

(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or [protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly;
shall suffer death
or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.

http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/SUBCHAPTERX.html#904.104




Finally a word of advice.

I am, and always have been, a Registered Independent Voter

I've made this known ever since I've been on FR

Remember it's Independents like me and Democrats like John O'Neill
and Zell Miller who helped the GOP pull the election
out of the fire.

My contributions will always go to
Free Republic AND other non partisan groups
before Republicans or Democrats ever sees a dime from me.

AND my votes in '06 and '08 will always go to
the best qualified candidate, regardless of
their party.

BTW : What other forums, on the internet,
were you campaiging for President Bush in '04?

I was on plenty of msn and yahoo groups
and on militay.com
My user names were/are
tonkingulfyachtclub68_69
USSCORRY_DD817_66_69
tonkin817


562 posted on 01/17/2006 2:08:46 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (SEMPER PARATUS -- ALWAYS READY)
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To: DJ Taylor
There must have been something good he did during his year tour in Vietnam, but all I could remember was how he had used his position to scam medals and further his own career; much like what Murtha appears to have done.

I was in the Army for only two years and not in combat but I could sure tell the difference between the real leaders and those working the system. For instance, we all knew a certain officer had never seen any real combat but had received a bronze star during Desert Storm through having the right connections. And he was a terrible officer.

Whenever one of the "sham" leaders would make an innocuous request of me I would remark "I'm on my way with the speed of lightning" and casually stroll over to complete the request. But when a real "squared away" leader would ask anything, no matter how small, I would theatrically hurry to fulfill his every need, asking if there were anything else I could do, remarking how "it was a pleasure" when they thanked me. (The good leaders always thank you.)

I made my point and stayed within military protocol. (Of course, during important military operations I acted with alactrity in all matters no matter who asked!)

Frankly, in Murtha's case I agree with those who say that since he makes a big deal of his record and uses it for political gain and as an "expert witness" then he's the one who made it necessary to check out his record. Let's investigate and demand records till the cows come home...as long as he loudly uses his wartime service status to claim superior knowledge over others.

I also agree with those who say don't disparage anyone's record. Trust but verify. Don't disparage, either, just let the facts be known...since Murtha makes a big deal of it. If he didn't then it would be bad manners to ask.

In Kerry's case, it's pretty obvious that he acted against the country while in the Naval Reserves and should be removed from the Senate. But why didn't that happen years ago? Still, even if unsuccessful the facts should be known and it should be on record that we tried. If anything, Kerry getting away with it for so long kind of shows how most people won't question anyones record except in the most extreme circumstances.
563 posted on 01/17/2006 4:05:54 PM PST by \/\/ayne (Give me Liberty or give me the ACLU)
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To: GSWarrior

I don't understand why not. Why should these guys get a free pass? They often appeal to their military experience to try to discredit the President or to hide behind to denigrate our military so if their records are less than what they claimed, it's open season.

I don't understand why they would even appeal to their military service when it didn't matter when Bill Clinton, a TRUE draft-dodger, was the president. We were told, by Senator Kerry no less, that it didn't matter whether a person served in Vietnam or not. So why does it matter now??


564 posted on 01/17/2006 6:17:29 PM PST by Sister_T (Kenneth Blackwell for Governor of Ohio!)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; usmcobra

I just had an epiphany.

Why, with a 403-3 vote, is Murtha on 60 Minutes still touting his plan?


565 posted on 01/17/2006 7:04:51 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Murtha’s Mangled Medal Stories
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1560074/posts


566 posted on 01/17/2006 10:12:15 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Ditto, everything you said.


567 posted on 01/18/2006 5:51:42 AM PST by Peach
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Back to skyscrapers, I see. There must be a 12 step group for that.

Let me deal with this issue and then get to the larger point:

You need to cite YOUR source that says the US Supreme Court does not have jurisdiction over U.S. Constitution Amendment 14 Sec 3 (1868)

OK...I'll type it so you can read it this time...

Amendment 14 Sec 5 gives CONGRESS the power to enforce Sections 1 through 4.

Got it? Now, if you have a Constitutional provision that gives the SCOTUS the right to remove Senators, serve it up. It wouldn't change my mind completely on the wisdom of your tactics, but it might change my tactical mindset some.

Now, let me tell you a true story about I guy I interviewed once.

His name is Michael Franzese. He once was one of the youngest and most successful mob bosses ever, a capo in the Colombo family in NYC. Just one of his schemes that evaded the gas tax at gas stations in his territory was bringing in $5 million per week, which was about half as much as the “Teflon Don” John Gotti made each year at the top of his game. A massive task force with officers from 14 agencies was formed just to get him--not the Colombo family, just him. He was indicted for racketeering three times, and tried five times, once with Rudy Giuliani leading the prosecution team personally.

But they didn't get him. He eventually went to prison, but that was because he had become a Christian and decided that he should plead guilty and pay for his crimes.

Why didn't they get him when he was a known rising star in the Mafia? Tom Brokaw said right on TV that this guy was a mobster and they couldn't get a jury to send him to jail? One thing he told me was that many organized crime prosecutions fail because prosecutors know beyond doubt that the mobsters are guilty of something (after all, they're mobsters), and this tends to color their perception of the evidence and how the jury will see the evidence. He said, “They know who you are, and you’re a target.” So they go to trial with evidence that's not sufficient for the jury. He believes that's why Gotti (who was dumb as a post) was acquitted the first two times.

Now, imagine you're one of Rudy Giuliani's team. Imagine you've worked for years on getting Franzese. And imagine you said to him, "Boss, we know Franzese is guilty, but the jury is not going to give us a conviction. Something has to change before we bring this to trial. We need to do more work, but we can do it. If we go now and don't get a conviction, it will hurt our operations immeasurably."

Rudy turns to you and yells, "You're working for the Mafia, aren't you? You don't care at all about the people this man has hurt. You don't have your priorities straight! You haven't done any work for this team at all! And if any person who's been victimized by the Mafia heard you, they would know you care more about the comfort and success of the Mafia than you do about justice!"

Now, wouldn't you think Rudy was out of line? Maybe looking too closely at the bark of the tree to see the forest?

Well, that's what's going on with you. And the way I know it is not because your plan is unworkable, but because when anyone challenges you to show how it would work, you accuse them of dishonoring the troops, of being insufficiently loyal to the Republic, and (now in my case) even of not doing enough for the election of the President. It is like the tunnel vision that affects some shooters...they become so drilled in on the target and the sight picture that they lose their situational awareness and end up shooting friendlies.

I don't spend time on FR crowing about my work, but I'm going to say this here so that the next time you decide somebody hasn't been following the Gospel According to Tonk closely enough, you will think twice, and maybe avoid shooting into our own ranks.

I served my nation. I will not speak of the difficulties I endured, because they would be small next to those endured by many others who I lend my support to now.

I organized a weekly troop support demonstration that is still going after almost three years.

I have frozen and baked my can out there every week. I also made time to counter every appearance of appeaseniks in my area and alert Freepers all over the country to appeasnik activity they can counter. I hoped make sure there were Freepers waiting for Hanoi Kerry at every campaign stop, and I did my best.

I have done pro bono writing work for troop support organizations. I bill my writing at several tens of dollars per hour, but I did this for free because it was for the troops. I have gotten writer's cramp writing letters to troops I don't even know.

On the political side, I have lent my support to this president ever since before it was down to him and McCain, supporting him and the troops with my writing, my time, my presence.

And yet, you question my commitment to the cause, all because I disagree on a tactical approach. Because I tell you we need to do more work before we can get this guy.

Your conduct is shameful. You're a better man than this. Take your eyes off that bark a minute and get a grip.

568 posted on 01/18/2006 7:49:30 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"Your conduct is shameful. You're a better man than this. Take your eyes off that bark a minute and get a grip."

Guess you don't like that I don't
and never will contribute one dime to the GOP.

You are the one who can't admit that if was not for
men like John O'Neill and Zell Miller that you
would be saying president hanoi kerry

At least Karl Rove and many, many others now the real
truth about the '04 election.

Rove Credits Swiftvets With 'Energizing' Bush Vote (Thank You Karl Rove!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345603/posts


569 posted on 01/18/2006 8:09:13 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback; Peach; usmcobra; Calpernia; freema; jrlc; Interesting Times

Kerry Positioning himself for 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180361,00.html

Jerome R. Corsi and Scott Swett

Read about it in John Kerry and the VVAW: Hanoi's American Puppets?
by Dr. Jerome Corsi (FReeper jrlc)
and Scott Swett (FReeper Interesting Times)
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=puppets

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php




John Kerry and the VVAW:
>
>Hanoi's American Puppets?
>
>Two recently discovered documents captured from the Vietnamese
>communists during the Vietnam War strongly support the contention that a
>close link existed between the Hanoi regime and the * Vietnam Veterans
>Against the War (VVAW) while John Kerry served as the group's leading
>national spokesman.
>
>The Circular: International Coordination of Antiwar Propaganda
>The first document is a 1971 "Circular" distributed by the Vietnamese
>communists within Vietnam. It discusses strategies to coordinate their
>national propaganda effort with their orchestration of the activities of
>sympathetic counterparts in the American anti-war movement.
>Specifically, the document notes that the Vietcong and North Vietnamese
>delegations to the Paris Peace talks were being used as the
>communications link to direct the activities of anti-war activists
>meeting with them in Paris. To quote from the document:
>The spontaneous antiwar movements in the US have received assistance and
>guidance from the friendly ((VC/NVN)) delegations at the Paris Peace
>Talks.
>
>-- Circular on Antiwar Movements in the US. The reference to "VC"
>indicates the Vietcong; "NVN" is the North Vietnamese government.
>
>This sentence is particularly important in light of John Kerry's
>admission that he met with leaders of both communist delegations to the
>Paris Peace Talks in June 1970, including Madame Binh, foreign minister
>of the Provisional Revolutionary Government (PRG) of South Vietnam, also
>known as the Vietcong. FBI files record that Kerry returned to Paris to
>meet with the North Vietnamese delegation in August of 1971, and planned
>a third trip in November.
>
>Prior to the discovery of the Circular, there was no direct evidence
>that Hanoi was actually steering the U.S. antiwar movement's activities
>by conveying Hanoi's goals and wishes to movement leaders during their
>frequent visits to Paris, though many investigators had assumed that to
>be the case. Further analysis of this document supports the contention
>that Madame Binh used her Paris meeting with John Kerry to instruct him
>on how he and the VVAW might best serve as Hanoi's surrogates in the
>United States. In the spring and summer of 1971, a key strategy of Hanoi
>was to advance what was known as Madame Binh's Seven Point Peace Plan.
>
>The plan was cleverly constructed to force President Nixon to set a date
>to end the Vietnam War and withdraw American troops. According to the
>7-Point Peace Plan of Madame Binh, the only barrier to Hanoi setting a
>date to release American Prisoners of War was President Nixon's
>unwillingness to set a specific date for military withdrawal. Of course,
>accepting the full terms of the 7-Point Peace Plan would have amounted
>to an American capitulation, a virtual surrender that included the
>payment of reparations to the Vietnam communists as an admission that
>America was the wrongful aggressor in an immoral war.
>
>A section of the Circular titled
>"PREPARATION FOR THE FALL ((1971)) ANTIWAR MOVEMENT" makes clear the
>importance the Vietnamese Communists placed on advancing Madame Binh's
>7-Point Peace Plan within the United States:
>
>The seven-point peace proposal ((of the SVN Provisional Revolutionary
>Government)) not only solved problems concerning the release of US
>prisoners but also motivated the people of all walks of life and even
>relatives of US pilots detained in NVN to participate in the antiwar
>movement.
>
>-- Circular on Antiwar Movements in the US. "SVN" indicates the South
>Vietnam Provisional Revolutionary Government, i.e., the Vietcong. "NVN"
>refers to North Vietnam.
>
>And again, highlighting how the Vietnamese communists viewed the
>activities of the US antiwar movement, US politics, and politics in
>South Vietnam as interconnected; all to be targeted by Madame Binh's
>7-Point Peace Plan:
>
>The Nixon-Thieu clique is very embarrassed because the seven-point peace
>proposal is supported by the SVN people's (( political struggle))
>movement and the antiwar movements in the US. Therefore, all local
>areas, units, and branches must widely disseminate the seven-point peace
>proposal, step up the people's ((political struggle)) movements both in
>cities and rural areas, taking advantage of disturbances and dissensions
>in the enemy's forthcoming (RVN) Congressional and Presidential
>elections. They must coordinate more successfully with the antiwar
>movements in the US so as to isolate the Nixon-Thieu clique.
>
>-- Circular on Antiwar Movements in the US. "RVN" refers to the Republic
>of Vietnam, the government in South Vietnam supported by the US. POW
>Families: Targets of the Vietnamese Communists
>
>Late in 1970, a defecting Vietcong organizer described a communist plan
>to use Vietcong sympathizers in the US to recruit family members of
>American POWs held captive in North Vietnam. The following summary of
>his interview was provided to the House Foreign Affairs Committee:
>
>The Viet Cong plan to continue their efforts to win worldwide opinion to
>their side and to solicit as much material support for the VC struggle
>as possible from other countries in order to create a favorable climate
>for the VC at the Paris Peace Conference.
>
>The Viet Cong will continue to promote domestic unrest against the war
>in the United States in order to speed withdrawal of US troops and
>create pressure for an end to the war.
>
>Efforts will be directed toward the US soldier in Vietnam to demand that
>they be returned to the US and be reunited with their families and
>wives.
>
>The VC will strive to create anti-draft and anti-war attitudes in the US
>by organizing VC sympathizers in the US to contact families with sons in
>Vietnam and urge them to call their sons home. Also VC sympathizers in
>the US will be organized to distribute anti-draft leaflets to students
>and young people.
>
>On February 1, 1971, at their Winter Soldier Investigation in Detroit,
>the VVAW released a statement by Virginia Warner, mother of American POW
>Jim Warner, urging President Nixon to "end the war so the prisoners of
>war can come home." Jim Warner has accused John Kerry of exploiting his
>mother's fears to obtain this statement.
>
>On July 22, 1971, John Kerry held a press conference in Washington, DC,
>to call upon President Nixon to accept Madame Binh's 7-Point Peace Plan.
>Kerry surrounded himself at the press conference with POW wives, parents
>and sisters who had been recruited to promote his message. The event was
>reported in The New York Times of July 23, 1971 and the communist Daily
>World of July 24, 1971. Each article included a photograph of Kerry
>surrounded by POW family members.
>
>Kerry's use of POW families directly advanced the North Vietnamese
>communist agenda as described by enemy defectors and in the newly
>discovered Circular, which suggests that Madame Binh had recommended the
>same course of action to antiwar activists meeting with her in Paris.
>
>[Note: A number of POW families were contacted by a "liason" group
>headed by Cora Weiss, the daughter of Communist Party financier Samuel
>Rubin, with offers to provide mail and information about their husbands
>if the families agreed to publicly denounce the war. Most POW family
>members refused to cooperate with this extortion, even when promised
>better treatment for their husbands or sons in Hanoi. Four angry POW
>wives protested at Kerry's July press conference, one of whom accused
>Kerry of "constantly using our own suffering and grief" to advance his
>political ambitions.]
>
>The Directive: Supporting the US Domestic Insurgency
>
>The second document, captured by US military forces in South Vietnam on
>May 12, 1972, is a communist Directive designed to motivate discussions
>within Vietnam about promoting the ongoing antiwar activities in the
>United States. The fifth paragraph of this document makes clear that the
>Vietnamese communists were utilizing for their propaganda purposes the
>activities of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. The protest
>described as occurring from April 19 through April 22, 1971 coincides
>directly with the dates of Dewey Canyon III, the Washington, DC, protest
>led by John Kerry, during which John Kerry's testimony before Senator
>Fulbright's Foreign Relations Committee was a televised centerpiece. The
>description of the protest activities in the Directive even include the
>"return their medals" ceremony in which John Kerry and other VVAW
>members threw their medals and/or ribbons toward the steps of the US
>Capitol, with several shouting threats of violence against their
>government as they did so.
>
>The Connection: The People's Committee for Peace and Justice
>Another key discussion in the documents reveals the degree to which the
>Vietnamese communists were working with and through the PCPJ (People's
>Coalition for Peace and Justice. The Circular, immediately after
>disclosing how the communist delegations to the Paris Peace talks were
>being used to guide the US antiwar movement, stresses the importance of
>the PCPJ to these efforts:
>
>Of the US antiwar movements, the two most important ones are: The PCPJ
>((the People's Committee for Peace and Justice)) and the NPAC ((National
>Peace Action Committee)). These two movements have gathered much
>strength and staged many demonstrations. The PCPJ is the most important.
>It maintains relations with us.
>
>-- Circular on Antiwar Movements in the US (emphasis added).
>The House Internal Security Committee in its 1971 Annual Report
>described the PCPJ as an organization strongly controlled by US
>communists: "There is no question but what members of the Communist
>Party have provided a very strong degree of influence, even a guiding
>influence, in the evolution and formation of policies of the People's
>Coalition for Peace and Justice."
>
>Recently released FBI surveillance reports establish a strong link
>between John Kerry, Al Hubbard, the VVAW, the PCPJ, and their trips to
>Paris to meet with Madame Binh. As discussed in Unfit for Command,
>Hubbard, the Executive Secretary of the VVAW and a hard-line radical
>with ties to the Black Panthers and the PCPJ, had directly recruited
>John Kerry into the VVAW's Executive Committee, bypassing the
>organization's election process.
>
>Al Hubbard's own claim to have been a transport pilot wounded in combat
>was discredited when the Department of Defense released documents
>demonstrating that, though Hubbard had been in the Air Force, he was
>neither a pilot nor an officer, had never served in Vietnam and had
>never been in combat. John Kerry shared the stage with Al Hubbard during
>the Dewey Canyon III protest in Washington, D.C., and he appeared
>together with Hubbard on NBC's Meet the Press on April 18, 1971. Hubbard
>also signed the People's Peace Treaty, a PCPJ document that reiterated
>the positions of North Vietnam and the Vietcong, on behalf of the VVAW.
>
>An FBI field surveillance report stamped November 11, 1971 reported that
>the FBI had learned at the Regional VVAW Convention in Norman Oklahoma,
>on November 5-7, 1971, that John Kerry and Al Hubbard were planning to
>travel to Paris later in the month to engage in talks with the
>Vietnamese communist peace delegations. While this document is heavily
>redacted, other FBI reports make it clear that the Communist Party of
>the USA was paying for Al Hubbard's trips to Paris.
>
>IT IS NOTED THAT THE "COMMUNIST PARTY" REFERRED IN RETEL IS PROBABLY THE
>COMMUNIST PARTY, USA, BECAUSE AL HUBBARD IS A MEMBER OF COORDINATING OF
>PEOPLES COALITION FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE (PCPJ), AS ARE GIL GREEN, MEMBER
>OF NATIONAL COMMITTEE, COMMUNIST PARTY, USA AND JARVIS TYNER, NATIONAL
>DIRECTOR, YOUNG WORKERS LIBERATION LEAGUE. HUBBARD, GREEN AND TYNER HAVE
>ATTENDED SAME NATIONAL MEETINGS OF PCPJ.
>
>-- Federal Bureau of Investigations, Field Surveillance Report, filed
>November 11, 1971. A copy of this report was air-mailed to the Boston
>FBI office in reference to John Kerry.
>
>An FBI field surveillance report dated November 24, 1971 details Al
>Hubbard's presentation to a VVAW meeting of the Executive and Steering
>committees in Kansas City, Missouri, during the weekend of November
>12-15, 1971 -- the same meeting at which the VVAW considered, then
>rejected a plan to assassinate several pro-war US Senators. John Kerry
>is listed as present. Once again, Al Hubbard made clear the communist
>coordination involved in his recent trip to Paris:
>
>[BLACK OUT] advised that Hubbard gave the following information
>regarding his Paris trip:
>
>Two foreign groups, which are Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV) and
>Peoples Republic Government (PRG) (phonetic), invited representatives of
>the VVAW, Communist Party USA (CP USA), and a Left Wing group in Paris,
>to attend meeting of the above inviting groups in Paris. Hubbard advised
>he was elected to represent the VVAW. An unknown male was invited to
>represent the CP USA and an unknown individual was elected to represent
>the Left Wing group from Paris. He advised at the meeting that his trip
>was financed by CP USA.
>
>-- Federal Bureau of Investigations, Field Surveillance Report, filed
>November 24, 1971.
>
>A letter written by Al Hubbard on April 20, 1971 leaves no doubt about
>the strong coordination between the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and
>the People's Coalition for Peace and Justice. Addressed from the offices
>of the VVAW in Washington, D.C., the letter is an appeal to VVAW members
>to provide assistance to the PCPJ. It discusses several ways in which
>the two organizations have worked closely together:
>
>This is an appeal for help for the Peoples Coalition for Peace and
>Justice. Over the past months the Peoples Coalition has supported the
>Vietnam Vets Against the War in many ways. The Coalition has made office
>space available at no charge, and permitted the use of all necessary
>office equipment such as mimeograph machines, stencil-making machines,
>folders and typewriters. They have loaned us cars, bullhorns, and public
>address equipment. Their staff has taken messages for us and joined
>fraternally in building our progress. Now we can return this support.
>
>Saturday, April 24, the Coalition needs help collecting money and
>selling buttons at the great march and rally. Collectors and sellers
>must be energetic and determined. Theree will be security problems in
>taking large amounts of money to banks. The Coalition needs people
>power, hundreds of workers.
>I earnestly hope that you will come forward to support our friends in
>this emergency.
>
>-- Letter signed by Al Hubbard, addressed from the Vietnam Veterans
>Against the War office at Room 900, 1029 Vermont Ave. N.W., Washington,
>D.C., dated April 20, 1971. Found in the House Internal Security
>Committee subject files, Washington, D.C.
>
>Two days after the letter was written, John Kerry gave his famous
>testimony to Senator Fulbright's Foreign Relations Committee in which he
>likened the American military in Vietnam to the army of Ghengis Khan.
>The march and rally for which Hubbard was recruiting VVAW assistance was
>the PCPJ's massive April 24 demonstration in Washington, which
>immediately followed the VVAW's week-long Dewey Canyon III protest. The
>communist Daily world reported on April 27 that "Tributes were paid to
>the special role of the Vietnam Veterans" at the PCPJ rally, and went on
>to quote at length from John Kerry's speech at that event.
>
>Willing Partners: the VVAW and the Vietnamese Communists
>Other examples of the VVAW's advocacy of Vietnamese communist positions
>during the period of John Kerry's leadership abound. The group issued a
>proclamation in February 1971 calling for mass civil disobedience and
>military mutiny if American forces entered Laos. After the war, North
>Vietnamese military leaders acknowledged that one of their greatest
>fears was that America would move significant forces into Laos to
>interdict the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The VVAW's eagerness to comply with the
>wishes of the Vietnamese communists even extended to its choice of
>nomenclature. The VVAW's Executive Committee stated in a July 1971
>meeting that the terms "Vietcong" and "North Vietnamese" were not to be
>used in VVAW press releases and communications. Instead, "PRG
>(Provisional Revolutionary Government)" and "DRV (Democratic Republic of
>Vietnam)"... "are to be used by us to reflect our acceptance of their
>designations." And the VVAW's unremitting insistence that American
>forces were mass-murdering Vietnamese civilians perfectly echoed the
>primary propaganda theme put forth by the Vietnamese communists, their
>international communist allies, and their Soviet sponsors.
>Conclusion
>
>The newly uncovered documents help clarify the relationship of the North
>Vietnamese, the Vietcong, the PCPJ, the Communist Party of the USA, and
>John Kerry's VVAW. They indicate that these organizations worked closely
>together, using the Paris Peace Talks as a central point of
>communication, to employ the strategy and tactics devised by the
>Vietnamese communists to achieve their primary objective: the defeat of
>the United States of America in Vietnam.
>
>-- by Jerome R. Corsi and Scott Swett


570 posted on 01/18/2006 8:53:53 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Plank Owner : Department of Homeland Security)
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To: Mr. Silverback; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Pinging Tonk to be etiquettely correct.

No you didn't.

Tonk's conduct is shameful?!

You wrote in another post, "Of course, I can see Kelly's point, because Murtha's claim to fame is being a "war hero," and his whole Iraq shtick is based on the idea that he knows what he's talking about because he was the man in 'Nam."

You call Tonk shameless and stated Murtha's talk is shtick, yet you advocate silence until all the facts are in, knowing full well it's taken 30 years to reach NO 180 with Kerry. Of anyone on FR, Tonk has been the one to hold the Kerry banner high BECAUSE OF THE SILENCE 30 years ago, the damage it did to our troops, and the massacre in the Cambodian fields, and YOU call HIM shameless, unable to see the forest for the trees, state "there must be a 12 step group for that", tell HIM to get a grip, because HE disagrees with YOU?

When the potential about what can evolve in damage to our troops and the war effort if this behavior is silently and quietly ignored has been made abundantly clear by history and Tonk calls you on your choice to sit on both sides of the fence, insults are posted.

I guess I missed your definition of shameless.


571 posted on 01/18/2006 9:52:49 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: freema; paltz

Marc Morano on right talk about this article now!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560382/posts
Murtha's "Kerry" Medals*Showdown in Iran*Backstage Alito Hearings* Wed 1-18 only on RIGHTALK.com!


572 posted on 01/18/2006 11:09:19 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Marc Morano on live now

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560382/posts
Murtha's "Kerry" Medals*Showdown in Iran*Backstage Alito Hearings* Wed 1-18 only on RIGHTALK.com!


573 posted on 01/18/2006 11:09:44 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

If you think their policies will be bad for the country, then say so and say why.
There are many, and I am one, that think policies are not as important as character.

---

Holy cow. That is astonishingly scary. When it comes to governing the country, I want someone whose policies will do best for the country. Frankly, what he does on his own time is none of my concern. I dont care if my bank manager cheats on his wife, as long as he doesnt cheat on my money. Same with politicians.


574 posted on 01/18/2006 11:17:53 AM PST by TheWormster
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To: Calpernia

Dang. I had the wrong station on somehow, so I've missed everything up till now, but I found it!


575 posted on 01/18/2006 11:22:05 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Calpernia; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

...saying he's not making any friends, talking about it, and people he thought would support it...he's giving a piece of advise, just say "Good night and good luck."

Geez, he's quoting me, now. LOL! "Moral authority"


576 posted on 01/18/2006 11:32:22 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: Voter#537
Kinda like christians who tell you how "HOLLY" they are.

Good point. Bragging about how holly you are is in fact a hugh and series sin.

577 posted on 01/18/2006 12:16:43 PM PST by murdoog
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To: TheWormster
When it comes to governing the country, I want someone whose policies will do best for the country

As a general rule people with good character choose policies that are good for the country. People with low character generally chose policies that benefit themselves at the expense of the country.

In times past these people were called "statesmen". A word rarely heard today.

At one time the Democratic party had many statesmen. Today I can only name two who could possibly fall into that category. Zell Miller and Joe Leiberman.

Most tend to fall into this category.

578 posted on 01/18/2006 12:30:49 PM PST by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("fake but accurate": NY Times)
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To: Mr. Silverback

It's happened to me too and it is not honorable conduct. I'm appalled. And disappointed.


579 posted on 01/18/2006 3:51:39 PM PST by Peach
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To: dirtboy

Murtha's record is this:
he's a liar and a fraud, as his Viet Nam record shows, and as the Abscam scandal clearly showed, he's not gotten beyond being a liar and a fraud.

Yes, this is worth bringing up, when a major candidate in the most recent Presidential election campaigned almost exclusively on his Viet Nam record! (can't seem to remember the guy's name, though...)


580 posted on 01/18/2006 7:15:27 PM PST by Redbob
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To: paltz
Jack Murtha has plenty of problems.

Back in June'05 his ties to the lobbying firm of KSA Consulting (his brother Kit is a senior partner, along with Carmen V. Scialabba, who worked 27 years for Rep. Murtha) prompted criticism from Keith Ashdown of Taxpayers for Common Sense.

An article titled "Lobbyist's Brother Guilded House Bill" was printed in the LA Times. It stated that KSA received $20.8 million from the bill that Murtha pushed thru the House.

Funny how Rep. Murtha just happened to start bashing Bush and the war, about the same time.
Maybe he wanted to divert attention away from his curious action with the lobbyist group........he can now say that any investigation is payback.

I say lets clean house.....get rid of all the crooks.

581 posted on 01/18/2006 7:45:31 PM PST by mickie
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To: Mr. Silverback; usmcobra

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558666/posts?page=411#411


582 posted on 01/18/2006 8:02:26 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: Mr. Silverback; usmcobra

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1558666/posts?page=414#414


583 posted on 01/18/2006 8:27:08 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Stolen Valor Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)
HR 3352 IH

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 3352

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to protections for the Medal of Honor, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

July 19, 2005

Mr. SALAZAR introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To amend title 18, United States Code, with respect to protections for the Medal of Honor, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Stolen Valor Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

Congress finds that--

(1) fraudulent claims surrounding receipt of the Medal of Honor, the Distinguished-Service Cross, the Air Force Cross, the Navy Cross, the Purple Heart, or any other medal or decoration awarded by Congress or the armed forces damage the reputation and meaning of these medals;

(2) Federal law enforcement officers are currently limited in their ability to prosecute fraudulent claims of receipt of military medals; and

(3) changes to the current statute are necessary to allow law enforcement personnel to protect the reputation and meaning of these medals.

SEC. 3. MILITARY MEDAL PROTECTIONS.

Section 704 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in subsection (a)--

(A) by inserting `purchases, attempts to purchase, solicits for purchase, mails, ships, imports, exports, produces blank certificates of receipt,' after `wears'; and

(B) by inserting `attempts to sell, advertises for sale, trades, barters or exchanges for anything of value' after `sells';

(2) in subsection (b)(1), by inserting `or (b)' after `subsection (a)'

(3) by redesignating subsection (b) as subsection (c);

(4) by inserting after subsection (a) the following:

`(b) False Claims About Receipt of Military Medals- Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.'; and

(5) by adding at the end the following:

`(d) Other Medals- If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) or (b) is a Distinguished Service Cross awarded under Section 3742 of title 10, an Air Force Cross awarded under section 8742 of section 10, a Navy cross awarded under section 6242 of title 10, a silver star awarded under section 3746, 6244, or 8746 of title 10, or a Purple Heart awarded under section 1129 of title 10, or any replacement or duplicate medal as authorized by statute, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.'.

1 posted on 01/18/2006 8:24:40 PM PST by Calpernia

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560750/posts


584 posted on 01/18/2006 8:44:46 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: paltz

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560750/posts
Stolen Valor Act of 2005


585 posted on 01/18/2006 8:52:19 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Mr. Silverback

`(b) False Claims About Receipt of Military Medals- Whoever falsely represents himself or herself, verbally or in writing, to have been awarded any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.'; and

(5) by adding at the end the following:

`(d) Other Medals- If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) or (b) is a Distinguished Service Cross awarded under Section 3742 of title 10, an Air Force Cross awarded under section 8742 of section 10, a Navy cross awarded under section 6242 of title 10, a silver star awarded under section 3746, 6244, or 8746 of title 10, or a Purple Heart awarded under section 1129 of title 10, or any replacement or duplicate medal as authorized by statute, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.








THIS is something that hanoi kerry can't get out of!

The Swift Boat Vets, proved, without any doubt,
to any logical, reasoning person,
that hanoi kerry's 1st Purple Heart is a fraud.

Now that Republicans AND Democrats are behind this bill
and since the GOP has control of both houses in Congress
hanoi kerry has finally been caught.

"the offender shall be fined under this title,
imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both."

Their is nothing about IF the fraud was committed before this bill.

IF hanoi kerry does not renounce his 1st Purple Heart
(and his 2nd and 3rd)
he's guilty of fraud and gets to go to jail.

37 posted on 01/18/2006 8:57:58 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560750/posts?page=37#37


586 posted on 01/18/2006 9:02:08 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a Service Man or Woman today?)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Guess you don't like that I don't and never will contribute one dime to the GOP.

I asked you--courteously--to provide evidence that your plan of action will work. Your response is to accuse me of being a party shill. You accuse me and many other good Americans of treasonous conduct, and the only reason you can think of that I would call that shameful is that I'm a party shill. Still examining that bark rather closely, eh? You've got nothing and so you slander a fellow vet.

You are the one who can't admit that if was not for men like John O'Neill and Zell Miller that you would be saying president hanoi kerry

1. That's either a lie or such a grievous error that it zotted the last tatters of your credibility. I have given the Swiftees credit on this board numerous times, and you know it! Either that or you're so busy looking down your nose at everybody who doesn't want get saved by the Gospel According to Tonk that you've mistaken me for somebody else.

2. Even if that were true and I didn't give the Siftees their due, what would that have to do with whether your silly plan to "get" Kerry will actually work? At first I thought you were just short on logic skills (like when you turn "Kerry got 48% of the vote" into "The Swiftees didn't help") but now I see that you can't back any of it up, you can't even get the Constitutional law on it straight, so you slander fellow vets! John Kerry would be laughing his poodle butt off at you if he read this thread.

I said you were a better man than this.

I was wrong.

587 posted on 01/18/2006 9:46:37 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
Kerry Positioning himself for 2008

Yeah. So's Dennis Kucinich. Take your boogeyman story elsewhere.

588 posted on 01/18/2006 9:50:09 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: Mr. Silverback

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=586#586

Your chance to get onboard, plain and simple


589 posted on 01/18/2006 9:54:16 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (The "Politically Correct RINO's" on Free Republic RINO's are never really political or correct.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

"Take your boogeyman story elsewhere."

It's not my story.




Kerry Positioning himself for 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,180361,00.html

Jerome R. Corsi and Scott Swett

Read about it in John Kerry and the VVAW: Hanoi's American Puppets?

by Dr. Jerome Corsi (FReeper jrlc)
and Scott Swett (FReeper Interesting Times)

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=puppets

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php


590 posted on 01/18/2006 10:03:01 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (The "Politically Correct RINO's" on Free Republic RINO's are never really political or correct.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Is there a valid reason why you ignore other posters
to you and instead "lock on" to me.

Have you evem bothered to read the post by river rat
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1557630/posts?page=320#320



591 posted on 01/18/2006 10:12:14 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (The "Politically Correct RINO's" on Free Republic RINO's are never really political or correct.)
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To: freema
*SIGH*

You didn't read the whole conversation between me and Tonk, did you?

Or do you really think it's appropriate for him to portray me and other people on this board as traitors to the Republic when we disagree with him on a tactical course?

I've put in the hours on cold flightlines and hot streetcorners. I sure deserve better than that.

592 posted on 01/18/2006 10:23:57 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
It's not my story.

My point was that if you're trying to scare me with the possibility that Kerry might become Prez, you should tell your story walkin', because:

1. He ain't getting nominated.

2. The Swiftees will torpedo his butt again.

Like I said, Kucinich is prepping for '08 as well.

593 posted on 01/18/2006 10:27:31 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; river rat
Is there a valid reason why you ignore other posters to you and instead "lock on" to me.

Did you notice how in that post river rat honored the fallen and did so without accusing his fellow Freepers (especially those of us who are vets) of treason? If you were doing that, you and I would not be having this conversation, and you would not be throwing years of goodwill away on a vendetta against fellow Freepers.

River rat has not been abusive and slanderous. You have.

River rat, I honor your service, and I am not asking you to "move on." I am pinging you to this reply out of courtesy, I am not attempting to drag you into this personal issue between me and Tonk. And don't you worry, I'm not forgetting about the names on the Wall either. God Bless.

594 posted on 01/18/2006 10:50:15 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Which outlets in the library are appropriate for my hairdryer--Actual question asked of a librarian)
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To: Mr. Silverback
"Did you notice how in that post river rat honored the fallen and did so without accusing his fellow Freepers (especially those of us who are vets) of treason?"

The EXACT post where I said you were guilty of treason?

Now answer why you choose not to answer the other posters, on this thread, who have posted replies to you.

And are you onboard on this new way to keep
hanoi kerry out of office in '06 or not.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560750/posts?page=37#37

Yes Or No, Plain and Simple
595 posted on 01/18/2006 11:08:04 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (The "Politically Correct RINO's" on Free Republic RINO's are never really political or correct.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

I VOW to the 58,000 + Brothers and Sisters on
The Viet Nam Wall who never came home
and to those who died at home from injuries and
from broken hearts.

"I will do everything I LEGALLY can
to expose Hanoi Kerry once and for all.

I will not tire, I will not falter,
and I will not fail.

I solemnly vow to do all I can to restore your honor
until I give my last breath on earth."

http://www.freerepublic.com/~6869tonkingulfyachtc/


596 posted on 01/18/2006 11:12:24 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (The "Politically Correct RINO's" on Free Republic RINO's are never really political or correct.)
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To: Lunatic Fringe
OK, Republicans... Just don't cry about these tactics when you're back in the minority.

Why would Republicans have any desire or need to protect a Republican member of Congress if that member of Congress were using a fraudulent war record to enhance his credibility?

This Republican would be way out ahead of the Democrats in seeking to have the bum thrown out.

Forums such as this one are exactly where Murtha's war record should be scrutinized.

597 posted on 01/18/2006 11:23:41 PM PST by JCEccles
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To: Mr. Silverback; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
We are a small community...here at FreeRepublic..
We share many similar goals, but obviously disagree on tactics and often even disagree on which fights we should engage.
This is normal, since we all arrived here by a different path, with different experiences.
There are enough enemies to engage, that we needn't weaken ourselves by fighting each other..

No doubt - many of us have unresolved issues and reasons to despise the Kerry/Fonda/Murtha types very deeply. At times some might consider our hatred and desire for vengeance as irrational and unhealthy.. We're told we should "move on"...or "get beyond the past and leave it in the past"....
I for one, would love to --- but some of us haven't been successful. This is a fight that some of us MUST fight.

We can't pretend that our lost brothers are not still watching and waiting for vindication.. Waiting to have the doubt cast on their honor by that lying sonuvabitch Kerry -- removed and their honor restored without question or doubt, by even the most radical opposition to that war. And, challenging ANYONE that resorts to "Stolen Valor" to diminish the valor of those that truly earned it.

To further his career, Kerry branded our fallen brothers as "war criminals" -- and no one has SUFFICIENTLY called him to task for that act... In fact, America has rewarded him far beyond his worth or integrity....in violation of my uneducated reading of the Constitution.

Actually, I think Tonk's ambition to have Kerry removed from the Senate is an impossible dream -- which doesn't go far enough for me...
I for one, have learned the hard way, that congress critters can not be trusted to do the right thing..
They are far more interested in doing the politically expedient and rewarding thing for themselves......

Personally, I'd rather dream of Kerry being convicted of treason and hung before our Wall until the rats have picked his bones clean.. This would come close to satisfying me -- If I could spring the trap door...

You two need to agree to disagree on some points and accept each other as brothers with a difference of opinion - and no more than that.....

Semper Fi

598 posted on 01/19/2006 1:24:02 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Mr. Silverback; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

Pinging tonk to be etiquettely correct.

"You didn't read the whole conversation between me and Tonk, did you?"

How could I help but read it? This thread is 'Murtha's War Hero Status Called into Question', you don't think it matters, and you're still here arguing "It can't be won!".

"Or do you really think it's appropriate for him to portray me and other people on this board as traitors to the Republic when we disagree with him on a tactical course?"

I don't think it's appropriate of you or anyone else to put words in Tonk's mouth. I don't know where on God's green earth the word traitor came from. Oh, wait, my bad. Yes I do.

"I've put in the hours on cold flightlines and hot streetcorners. I sure deserve better than that."

Those are your words, but I could just as easily see where they could have been written by Kerry or Murtha.

That said, I deeply appreciate your service, and thank you for it.

If you want to move on and focus on what Murtha is doing today, please do so. Please ping me with an after action report.


599 posted on 01/19/2006 4:17:54 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; Mr. Silverback

I VOW to the 58,000 + Brothers and Sisters on
The Viet Nam Wall who never came home
and to those who died at home from injuries and
from broken hearts and to the Sons and Daughters of this generation.

"I will do everything I LEGALLY can
to expose Hanoi Kerry once and for all.

I will not tire, I will not falter,
and I will not fail.
Peace and Freedom will prevail.

I solemnly vow to do all I can to restore and uphold your honor until I give my last breath on earth."


600 posted on 01/19/2006 4:22:27 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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