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The Problem of Illegal Guns [Ba-da-Barf]
NY Times ^ | January 15, 2006 | JAMES BRONZAN

Posted on 01/15/2006 5:43:38 AM PST by Pharmboy

Although homicides reported in New York City last year reached their lowest level since 1963, two killings of police officers late in the year raised public awareness of the problem of illegal guns on the city’s streets. In his inaugural address on Jan. 1, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg declared that a major goal of his second term would be to “rid our streets of guns, and punish all those who possess and traffic in these instruments of death.”

Although the total flow of guns into the city is hard to quantify, Police Department statistics show that a majority of illegal guns recovered in the city had last been sold outside New York State.

While the number of illegal guns recovered in the city has declined over the past four years, the number of shootings is little changed. There is also a strong correlation between where shootings occur and where guns are recovered.

Measuring success in taking guns off the street is more straightforward than measuring success in education, which was a main focus of Mr. Bloomberg’s first term. Over the next four years, the number of guns recovered and the number of shootings will establish clearly whether Mr. Bloomberg has succeeded.

William K. Rashbaum and Al Baker contributed reporting for the charts. Sources for charts: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms; New York City Police Department.


(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; US: New York; US: North Carolina; US: Pennsylvania; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: banglist; bradywatch; guns; leavemygunsalone; lockemup
This actually had less editorializing and bad statistics than I thought it would. But where is their logic when they cite the fact that murders are waaaay down--why? Because the bad guys are locked up for longer these days...
1 posted on 01/15/2006 5:43:40 AM PST by Pharmboy
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To: Pharmboy

How many people reading this this morning will follow the Slimes logic and conclude that "illegal" guns just aren't illegal enough?


2 posted on 01/15/2006 5:48:57 AM PST by raybbr (ANWR is a barren, frozen wasteland - like the mind of a democrat!)
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To: Pharmboy

The real crime here is where they try to tie the guns to other states by using the "where the guns were last sold" line.

A firearm purchaser in Pennsylvania goes through the same background check as a firearms purchaser in California. If the buyer comes up clean, the sale goes through.

If that firearm is stolen in a robbery and then sold on the streets of NY (or used in a crime), that is not Pennsylvania's fault.

But liberals doe not care about facts....its all about feel good legislation that increases their power over the people.


3 posted on 01/15/2006 5:49:37 AM PST by Erik Latranyi (9-11 is your Peace Dividend)
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To: Pharmboy
These 'statistics' are as useless as the one that would prove that a majority of gun crimes in NYC, or for that matter a majority of all crimes in NYC, were committed by people with brown eyes and black hair. And a sub grouping of that statistic would prove that of these criminals, English was their second language.

Wait... on 2nd thought.......

4 posted on 01/15/2006 5:59:51 AM PST by Condor51 (The above comment is time sensitive - don't BUG ME an hour from now.)
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To: Pharmboy

Building the case for a national ban.


5 posted on 01/15/2006 6:08:57 AM PST by Loyal Buckeye
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To: raybbr
Excellent point...yeah, that's it...let's make them more illegal...tha'll do it.
6 posted on 01/15/2006 6:16:52 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pharmboy

Kinda like lets make murder double dare you illegal.

Nothing liberals do, say or propose makes any sense anymore. I think they like it that way.


7 posted on 01/15/2006 6:19:31 AM PST by Tarpon
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To: Loyal Buckeye
Yep...that is their agenda. But, just as they had no chance of stopping Alito (big story in The Times today on "glum democrats") I think they know in their heart of hearts they stand no chance of winning on this one.
8 posted on 01/15/2006 6:19:51 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: thefactor

Ping...


9 posted on 01/15/2006 6:21:38 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pharmboy
... the problem of illegal guns on the city’s streets

More important is the problem of criminals on the city's sidewalks.

10 posted on 01/15/2006 6:22:26 AM PST by catpuppy
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To: Pharmboy
There is also a strong correlation between where shootings occur and where guns are recovered.

Einstein Award candidate.

11 posted on 01/15/2006 6:24:08 AM PST by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: raybbr

They need to make murder illegal. THEN, we'll have that socialist utopia.


12 posted on 01/15/2006 6:26:53 AM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Pharmboy

They are not illegal guns...they are migrant guns!


13 posted on 01/15/2006 6:35:06 AM PST by Cyclops08
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To: Pharmboy
He is just following the lead of the far left,gun grabbing, for the murder of unborn babies and for queer marriage Rudy.
Rudy screamed worse than Dean about Florida selling guns.
14 posted on 01/15/2006 6:37:24 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (“Don't approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the back, or a Fool from any side.”)
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To: Cyclops08

LOL!!


15 posted on 01/15/2006 6:40:49 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Loyal Buckeye


Excactly. Maybe they'll have Spitzer sue the other state or something.

But that is this year's push - we have suddenly heard the same thing from New York, Boston and even Toronto, places where crime continues to be high despite gun restrictions - "the problem is guns that come from other place."

This is a coordinated effort by the gun grabbers.


16 posted on 01/15/2006 6:41:16 AM PST by Fido969 ("And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).)
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To: Cyclops08

LOL. Since the ignorant keep trying to personify guns, lets grant them all the freedoms extended by the Bill of Rights.


17 posted on 01/15/2006 6:50:22 AM PST by oneofmany (ACLU -- Destroying America since 1920)
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To: Pharmboy
Morons!

A full auto AR-15 is an illegal weapon, a Baretta 9mm semi-auto is not. But the guy holding it is committing an illegal act. Only when the Dems start putting the blame where it belongs, on the criminals, will they ever figure it out.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

God bless our troops wherever they may be.

18 posted on 01/15/2006 6:55:36 AM PST by JusticeTalion (Vulcan's never bluff.)
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To: Pharmboy

My goodness - charts, graphs, statistics, maps; everything but the kitchen sink... all calculated deliberately to avoid arriving at the starkly obvious conclusion that firearms are already (all but) illegal, and thus criminals have them and the law-abiding do not - so that the latter cannot defend themselves either against robbery or assault.

Kinda reminds one of the Village Idiot who exerted himself mightily, twisting and thrashing with all his strength, to stand on his head in the town square and whistle "Yankee Doodle" out his butt in order to "prove" that human beings don't speak with their mouths, tongues, and vocal cords.

If Bloomberg would make firearms readily available to the law-abiding, his "gun problem" would go away in a matter of months - but it seems he'd rather stand on his head in the town square. Well, perhaps it's more fun than rational behavior, after all; he certainly gets more attention that way than he would by thinking clearly and acting responsibly.


19 posted on 01/15/2006 6:56:34 AM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: Erik Latranyi

when are other states going to sue ny city for the loss of all these guns being stolen for the sole purpose of being used for a crime in ny...

teeman


20 posted on 01/15/2006 6:58:30 AM PST by teeman8r
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To: Erik Latranyi

Liberal thought processes or the lack thereof never cease to amaze me...


21 posted on 01/15/2006 7:02:02 AM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: raybbr

When certain authorities want to show a drop in crime, they simply re-classify certain acts or prosecute the offenders on misdemeanors charges rather than felony charges. Thus, this Bloomberg fool will no doubt classify any gun as "illegal" so as to show great success in "getting them off the street". In fact, nothing deters crime better than having the bad guys unsure about which citizens might be armed and shoot back. Criminals are like pigeons roosting on your house. You need to shoot a few and leave them laying around. The others then leave.


22 posted on 01/15/2006 7:06:37 AM PST by Emmett McCarthy
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To: Pharmboy

--b--


23 posted on 01/15/2006 7:28:24 AM PST by rellimpank (Don't believe anything about firearms or explosives stated by the mass media---NRABenefactor)
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To: Cyclops08
I like the way you think.

The 75th precinct, which I believe is East New York in Brooklyn, seems to be the worst part of town. I'm sure crack cocaine has nothing to do with this.

24 posted on 01/15/2006 7:29:23 AM PST by robomurph
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To: Tarpon
Kinda like lets make murder double dare you illegal.

Well, if that doesn't work, they figure they always have the double dog dare you illegal to ramp up to.../sarc

25 posted on 01/15/2006 7:31:05 AM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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To: Pharmboy
Those maps and charts show the absolute numbers of illegal guns and shootings. If such guns and shootings are evenly distributed among the population, then the dark areas would simply be the higher population districts. This would show a "correlation" between illegal guns and shootings where no causation exists.
26 posted on 01/15/2006 7:59:28 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Your FRiendly FReeper Patent Attorney)
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To: Pharmboy

The problem of illegal guns is basically that they've made guns illegal.

Arm everyone, lockup or hang the bad guys. Its what the founders intended.


27 posted on 01/15/2006 8:29:57 AM PST by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: Cyclops08
They are not illegal guns...they are migrant guns!

Undocumented, migrant guns!

28 posted on 01/15/2006 8:32:33 AM PST by relee
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To: festus

"The problem of illegal guns is basically that they've made guns illegal."

yep, they just can't add 1 & ! up there. Guns are illegal in NYC and D.C., and those two places have the highest gun crime.
"only criminals will have guns."

The fact that this scenario exists in the US has to be the epitome of stupidity.


29 posted on 01/15/2006 9:33:45 AM PST by lrb111 (Minutemen - Doing jobs the White House won't do.)
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To: Erik Latranyi

Liberals...
Cry about the constitutionality of wiretaps on terrorists yet they don't care when it is done to normal American conservatives. What hypocrits.


30 posted on 01/15/2006 3:06:38 PM PST by Thunder90
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To: JusticeTalion
JusticeTalion said: "A full auto AR-15 is an illegal weapon, a Baretta 9mm semi-auto is not. "

Despite a handful of unConstitutional laws, full-auto AR-15s are legal to own in many states of the Union.

31 posted on 01/15/2006 3:23:31 PM PST by William Tell (RKBA for California (rkba.members.sonic.net) - Volunteer by contacting Dave at rkba@sonic.net)
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To: Pharmboy

If you were to take those maps and then superimpose maps of drug trafficking, I would imagine they would be nearly an exact match.


32 posted on 01/15/2006 3:25:11 PM PST by dirtboy (My new years resolution is to quit using taglines...)
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To: Pharmboy

I see the restrictions coming at the state and local level, not the federal level. Any city with a RAT mayor and council will push for gun control.


33 posted on 01/15/2006 5:35:17 PM PST by Loyal Buckeye
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To: Erik Latranyi; GunsareOK; Pharmboy; Cacique; Travis McGee
"A firearm purchaser in Pennsylvania goes through the same background check as a firearms purchaser in California. If the buyer comes up clean, the sale goes through.

If that firearm is stolen in a robbery and then sold on the streets of NY (or used in a crime), that is not Pennsylvania's fault. "

What do you think of this idea:

In return for decriminalizing/lowering penalties or even "loosening" up NYC gun possession regulations, we support harsher penalties for actual selling of stolen or straw-purchased firearms?

Criminals caught with guns in the commission of a crime (this would not cover citizens using unregistered firearms in cases of self-defense) could face a preliminary heavy add-on charge for the possession/use of a stolen firearm in the commission of the act, with strong sentencing reduction guidelines for their testimony against the guy who sold them the stolen weapon.

If this were proposed in the NY legislature, it would force Bloomberg et al to concede whether they are simply out to ban all guns, or truly serious about illegal sales to criminals...

- Yehuda NRA / NJOP

34 posted on 01/15/2006 11:05:55 PM PST by Yehuda ("Land of the free, THANKS TO THE BRAVE!" (Choke on it, pinkos!))
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To: Yehuda

All they have to do is use the laws that already exist. But, they'd rather ban the guns than the criminals...


35 posted on 01/16/2006 3:06:24 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: robomurph
"The 75th precinct, which I believe is East New York in Brooklyn, seems to be the worst part of town. I'm sure crack cocaine has nothing to do with this."

Actually, it's pot.

Detective Patrick Caprice, who approached a suspect at a car stop in Brooklyn after he observed him purchasing marijuana, when the suspect suddenly began firing first from inside the vehicle, and then from outside. As Detective Caprice fell to the street, wounded to the abdomen, arm, and chest, the shooter reentered his car and began to flee. Detective Caprice managed to climb to one knee, steady his aim, and return fire, striking his assailant multiple times as he fled. The suspect later died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

On June 14, Officer Chris Wiesneski, on scooter patrol outside of a Queens park encountered an armed individual smoking marijuana. As the officer approached with his gun drawn, the suspect engaged Officer Wiesneski in a struggle over the officer's gun. Despite being badly wounded to the knee when the gun discharged, Officer Wiesneski radioed for assistance, providing a detailed description and a direction of flight of the perpetrator. The suspect was subsequently arrested by detectives.

36 posted on 01/16/2006 3:24:53 AM PST by endthematrix (None dare call it ISLAMOFACISM!)
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To: Pharmboy

Is it really that bad?

Fewer crimes, more complaints in city's toughest precinct

"In the last year, under Operation Trident, the results in the 75th have been dramatic: 100 fewer cars were stolen compared to 2004, 125 fewer people were robbed, 91 fewer places were burglarized, and there were 75 fewer felony assaults.

"I think it's been a tremendous success," Kelly told reporters recently. "We've gotten very positive feedback from the community. The program has worked well for us."

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/nyc-prof0108,0,7329895.story?coll=nyc-homepage-mezzbox


37 posted on 01/16/2006 3:29:48 AM PST by endthematrix (None dare call it ISLAMOFACISM!)
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To: Condor51

Yo, Condorboy. If you look at the areas in Brooklyn with the highest rate of homicide on that map, they are largely populated with folks who speak English, albeit sometimes with a Caribbean accent.


38 posted on 01/16/2006 3:31:45 AM PST by Clemenza (Smartest words ever written by a Communist: "Show me the way to the next Whiskey Bar")
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To: endthematrix

It is better than it's been since the '60s...but anything to to pump up the antigunner crowd. Just don't confuse them with facts.


39 posted on 01/16/2006 5:19:46 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pharmboy
"All they have to do is use the laws that already exist. But, they'd rather ban the guns than the criminals..."

Oh I completely agree! But they are not used to the pro-2A crowd calling their bluff, with us telling them to step up the penalties (and of course the enforcement) for illegal sales to criminals.

If the NRA and/or some legislators proposed this as an alternative to the more general (and of course useless wide ranging (and redundant) new gun banning laws, the libs would be forced to admit they REFUSED to actually do something that might be effective in taking illegal guns out of the hands of criminals.

IOW, they are actually empowering criminals by refusing this proposal...

Hello, Bloomie, WHATS YOUR VESTED INTEREST IN KEEPING GUNS IN THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS? ARE YOU HAPPY YOU ARE HELPING COP-KILLERS?
40 posted on 01/16/2006 9:33:00 PM PST by Yehuda ("Land of the free, THANKS TO THE BRAVE!" (Choke on it, pinkos!))
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To: JusticeTalion
A full auto AR-15 is an illegal weapon, a Baretta 9mm semi-auto is not.

Actually both statements are false. A full auto AR-15 is completely legal, if you've paid the proper tax (to do this the AR must have been made before 1986). A Baretta 9mm is illegal in some jurisdictions, several municipalities in Illinois ban all handguns for instance.

Of course both are completely legal, as are *all* other arms, under the US Constitution.

41 posted on 01/17/2006 9:24:44 AM PST by El Gato (The Second Amendment is the Reset Button of the U.S. Constitution)
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To: El Gato
Yeah, should have added the caveat, "in California", where I live. Full auto weapons are illegal here. Hope that takes care of things but the point was the Dems blame the guns for crime instead of the people.

God bless our troops wherever they may be.

42 posted on 01/17/2006 3:28:58 PM PST by JusticeTalion (Vulcan's never bluff.)
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