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Tied up in the [Vatican's] Rat Lines
Haaretz, Israel ^ | 2006-01-15 | Yossi Melman

Posted on 01/16/2006 8:11:38 AM PST by DTA

It is possible that within a short time a court in the United States will prohibit the publication of the account before us.

In the meantime, Haaretz has obtained the testimony given last month by William Gowen, a former intelligence officer in the United States Army, at a federal court in San Francisco.
The testimony contains historical and political explosives. It links Giovanni Battista Montini, who later became Pope Paul VI, to the theft of property of Jewish, Serb, Russian, Ukrainian and Roma victims during World War II in Yugoslavia.

Many studies and stories have already been written about the thundering silence of Pope Pius XII, who reigned in the Vatican during World War II. Now the former intelligence officer's testimony has revealed that after the war, Montini, who during the war served as the Vatican's deputy secretary of state under the pope, helped hide and launder property that had been stolen from, among others, Jews and was involved in the sheltering and smuggling of Croatian war criminals, such as the leader of the Ustashe movement, Ante Pavelic.

(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; antichristian; balkans; bravosierra; cardinalpacelli; catholic; catholicism; croatia; draganovic; draganovich; holocaust; holocaustdenial; montini; nazi; nazidenial; nazirevisionism; piusxii; ratlines; serbpropaganda; ustasha; vatican; wwii

1 posted on 01/16/2006 8:11:40 AM PST by DTA
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To: SJackson; Balkans

ping


2 posted on 01/16/2006 8:13:58 AM PST by DTA
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To: DTA
Now the former intelligence officer's testimony has revealed that after the war, Montini, who during the war served as the Vatican's deputy secretary of state under the pope, helped hide and launder property that had been stolen from, among others, Jews and was involved in the sheltering and smuggling of Croatian war criminals, such as the leader of the Ustashe movement, Ante Pavelic.

This sentence has everything you need to know about this article.

An unbiased account would have said that Montini makes these claims.

The way it is worded, it says that Montini "revealed" facts.

3 posted on 01/16/2006 8:27:57 AM PST by Restorer
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To: DTA
"Many studies and stories have already been written about the thundering silence of Pope Pius XII."

Once I saw this total fabrication mentioned I knew there was no reason to read the article, as it surely is full of falsehoods, innuendo and bigotry. Take this crap to some other forum where bigots congregate.

4 posted on 01/16/2006 8:35:43 AM PST by big'ol_freeper ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." Pope JPII)
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To: big'ol_freeper

I don't think there's much new here. The Vatican aided many so-called "nationalist" leaders from east europe to escape after the war. That some of these leaders had also been involved in atrocities may or may not have been known to all those who were helping these"refugees".

It is too bad that Pius XI did not live long enough to be pope during the war; he was not a man to have kept silent
(as his last, unissued pastoral letter, proved); and Pius XII was a man of different temperment.

But the origins of the holocaust were in Berlin (and in occultic societies which flourised in Europe even before the first world war), and not Rome.


5 posted on 01/16/2006 8:41:09 AM PST by CondorFlight
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To: DTA

Pius saved 860,000 Jews, dwarfing any other effort, including the Red Cross.

Golda Meir (I think it was) said at his funeral that the Jewish people would not forget what he did for them, until the sun grew cold.


6 posted on 01/16/2006 8:42:03 AM PST by agere_contra (Protectionism is Socialism - it's welfare for uncompetitive people.)
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To: DTA

bump


7 posted on 01/16/2006 8:43:52 AM PST by VOA
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To: Restorer

I think you typed "Montini" when you meant "McGowan"???


8 posted on 01/16/2006 8:44:11 AM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: CondorFlight

It is an incorrect statement to say Pius XII was silent, as he certainly was not. He was a man of action and confronted the Nazis by word and deed.


9 posted on 01/16/2006 8:44:21 AM PST by big'ol_freeper ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." Pope JPII)
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To: Restorer
>>>>>This sentence has everything you need to know about this article.<<<<

The only thing I need to know is the extent of criminal activity that took place in the Nazi Independent State of Croatia, the role of some RC clergy in those acts and the role of Vatican to cover it up.

During the war, Rev. Draganovich took the office in Nazi State as a head of an agency that redistributed plundered assets from murdered Serbs and Jews. According to The Canon Law of RC Church, he could not perform this duty without the tacit approval of The Church.

Perhaps you claim that mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Roma did not take place in Nazi state of Croatia 1941-45? There are some who claim that there was no Holocaust.

10 posted on 01/16/2006 8:52:50 AM PST by DTA
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To: agere_contra
Further to my last: on February 28, 1945, the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent a letter of gratitude to the Apostolic Nuncio in Romania (a Msgr. Andrea Cassulo) stating that:

The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living prove of divine Providence in this world.

Also, Israeli senior diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide, with access to the Yad Vashem (the Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance authority) archives proved that:

The Catholic Church relief and rescue program under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi’s hands. That was more than all other Churches, religious institutions and international rescue organizations put together.

The State of Israel - I am told - apparently recognized the lives saved by Pius by planting a forest, in commemoration, of as many trees in the Negeb, SE of Jerusalem. 860,000 trees, one per person saved.

Basically, this whole "Hitler's Pope" nonsense is and was just another left-wing smear.

11 posted on 01/16/2006 8:53:28 AM PST by agere_contra (Protectionism is Socialism - it's welfare for uncompetitive people.)
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To: Nihil Obstat

Ping


12 posted on 01/16/2006 8:53:34 AM PST by big'ol_freeper ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." Pope JPII)
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To: DTA
What a bunch of stupid lies. With all the things I disagree about with the late Paul VI, this anti-catholic mud-slinging has to finish. Pius XII saved more Jew people(estimated 800.000-1 million, ascertained 500.000) than any other institution, personality or organization on earth ever) and properties on earth, and Montini was with him on that.

That was acknowledged by a number of scholars and also Jew intellectuals and rabbis. Pius XII was a celebrated hero among the grateful founders of the State of Israel and only later the anti-Catholic defamation begun, due to the anti-apal strategies of liberals within and without the Church. Some of the gigazillion possible sources here and here , but especially interesting two (of many) articles by Rabbi David Dalin - one of the best conservative Jewish voices on the subject - here and here

13 posted on 01/16/2006 8:53:35 AM PST by fabrizio ("W 04, YEE-HAW !" from Italy !! - Give'em hell, Sam))
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To: DTA

I will wait for Dan Brown's book about it.


14 posted on 01/16/2006 8:55:49 AM PST by razorback-bert
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To: DTA

"Perhaps you claim that mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Roma did not take place in Nazi state of Croatia 1941-45?"

Unfortunately, this is true. A lot of it concerned massacres by the Croats of ethnic Serbs (who have since become the bad guys, since we have chosen to love the Muslim Bosnians). One of the Croat (Catholic) bishops even went up and down the lines of the Serbs about to be executed and "baptized" them, so they wouldn't have to die as Eastern Orthodox Christians (although he did nothing to protest the executions and, as a Croat, quite possibly approved of them).

Likewise,the Croatian indepedence leaders looked to Hitler for support for their nationalist aspirations, and followed his line when it came to the Jews. (Croatia might have opposed this, as Finland and Spain did, but did not.)

The RCC should also have been more vocal and visible in its protests; but it was "allied" to the Croats. (The USA should have been more vocal in its protests of the atrocities perpetrated upon ethnic Serbs by the Bosnians; but we are 'allied' to the Bosnians.)

So humans act like humans and do not live up to the best that is required of them.
But none of that invalidates
that "best" towards which they should have aspired (i.e., the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and the teachings of the RCC--if you are RCC--are not any less true or valid because some fallible men failed to do their duty.)


15 posted on 01/16/2006 9:03:00 AM PST by CondorFlight
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To: DTA
More revisionism by Catholic haters. Do this mental exercise: if the church wanted to rip off Nazi victims why did it oppose the Nazis? Why did allied institutions praise Church statements and declarations during the war, while the Nazis mocked them?

These criticisms in the mid-1960's were short-lived and quickly dismissed since both Jewish and non-Jewish witnesses to Pius's efforts during the war were still alive and attested to his remarkable pro-active efforts to help save would-be victims of fascist aggression. Books such as Dr. Joseph Lichten's, A Question of Judgment (1963) were written in response to The Deputy to serve as an unambiguous historical defense of Pius' actions during the war. Dr. Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith in Rome, wrote that any criticism of Pius XII's actions during WWII was "a stupefying paradox", because "no one who reads the record of Pius XII's actions on behalf of Jews can subscribe to Hochhuth's accusation."

Mit Brennender Sorge

Nazi policy and the Catholic Church

Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."
Albert Einstein (1946)

16 posted on 01/16/2006 9:04:13 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: big'ol_freeper; admin
>>>>Take this crap to some other forum where bigots congregate.<<<<<

Perhaps the appropriate language should be used when addressing the historical facts of genocide and The Holocaust.

Calling it 'crap' is disrespectful to the memory of several hundred thousand murdered in the Nazi Independent State of Croatia.

17 posted on 01/16/2006 9:04:56 AM PST by DTA
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To: Tribune7
You are pulling the straw man here. The position of RC Church in Germany and occupied Europe and position of RC Church in Nazi Croatia were completely different.

In Germany, Hitler wanted to ABOLISH RC faith and replace it with his pagan cult of Neremberg (with the help of his occult backers). For that reason, Pius XII was doing what he could not to anger Hitler, hoping the Allies will crush the evil in the meantime. The same was throughout the Nazi occupyed Europe. Many of the RC clergy and faithful were incarcerated in Dachau and other concentration camps.

Croatia was Hitler's ally, albeit causing much of trouble to Hitler. Mass genocidal onslaught on Serbs and Jews in the spring and summer of 1941 (several hundred thousand murdered, according to the German sources)has caused the emergence of Serb guerilla resistance requiring German response.

In Croatia, RC Church was state religion, not earmarked for extinction like in Germany. Croatia's fuehrer was a problem to Hitler, criticizing him bore no risk of angering Hitler. Therefore, while the actions of Pius XII towards Hitler can be understood, the actions of Pius XII towards the Croatian Nazis and Pavelic can not.

The fact that Pius XII has elevated Archbishop Stepinac AFTER the fall of Hitler prove this.

Pius XII has supported Ustasha government out of his own will, not out of fear from Hitler to save the Church.

18 posted on 01/16/2006 9:19:46 AM PST by DTA
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To: DTA
You are pulling the straw man here. The position of RC Church in Germany and occupied Europe and position of RC Church in Nazi Croatia were completely different.

No I'm not. What this post does is blame the Vatican on Croatian atrocities. There were atrocities in the Balkans and I am not going to argue that practicing Catholics were involved in them. OTOH, no way was the Vatican responsible for them.

The Catholic Church is not a perfect organization but in WWII it was heroic. If flaws are going to be pointed out -- and there is nothing wrong with pointing out flaws -- it is appropriate to qualify them with the far great acts of moral heroism, especially since the heroism is being attacked by dishonest people.

19 posted on 01/16/2006 9:32:53 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: DTA
That the chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII later converted to Roman Catholicism explains everything. Game. Set. Match.

My question: Where were the Lutherans?

Saint Maximilian Kolbe, ora pro nobis.

20 posted on 01/16/2006 9:34:00 AM PST by Pio (He who has not Mary for a Mother, has not God for a Father.)
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To: Pio
>>>>My question: Where were the Lutherans?<<<<<

The fact that chief Rabbi of Rome during WWII later converted to Roman Catholicism does not explain the crimes commited in Croatia and the role of Vatican. This is not "Game, Set, Match", this is more dropped ball.

Another straw man. There were few Lutherans in WWII Croatia because Croatia was RC country. However, there were many Franciscans. And many of them were busy runing extermination camp, spearheading mass slaughter of innocent civilians and actually murdering them. Some RC nuns were busy running the only extermination camp for children in WWII.

My question: Why there is such fervor to support the cover-up of the crimes commited 60 years ago?

21 posted on 01/16/2006 9:47:10 AM PST by DTA
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To: DTA; NYer; wideawake; Notwithstanding; american colleen; Lady In Blue; narses
Catholic bashing alert.

We've debunked the Pius XII "Nazi Pope" slander so many times on FR that it's tiresome. But for those who need to see it again, here are some highlights:

The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem during the war, Isaac Herzog, sent Pope Pius XII a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."

Albert Einstein said, after the war, “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."

Golda Meir, Israel’s illustrious Prime Minister, said when Pius XII died, “During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims.”

The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Albert Einstein, Golda Meir—there are others—Jewish leaders who lived through the horror of WWII and who have publicly lauded Pope Pius XII. I'll take their testimony over the Catholic bashers.

22 posted on 01/16/2006 10:24:06 AM PST by d-back
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To: d-back
>>>>>We've debunked the Pius XII "Nazi Pope" slander so many times on FR that it's tiresome<<<<<

This is not the issue here (see my post above regarding precarious position of RC Church under Hitler and favored position in Croatia). The issue is the proceeds from the crime, i.e. assetts of hundreds of thousands of murdered innocents and what happened with the assets after the war was over and Hitler was long gone.

Can you share your view on this? In my view, The Canon Law forbids that clegy from performing fiduciary duties, let alone knowingly stashing the proceeds of the crimes on behalf of war criminals, unless if given permission by the superiors.

Since the offenders were not defrocked, it seems they got such permission.

23 posted on 01/16/2006 10:36:08 AM PST by DTA
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To: DTA; ninenot; sittnick; NYer
DTA: What is that brown stuff running out of your ears? It has a reddish tint by admixture of (Serbian) Tito's Red propaganda. EVEN TITO's COURTS ACQUITTED Blessed Alois Cardinal Stepinac. Imagine how homicidally enraged you will be when he is canonized as a saint! It will still be none of your bigoted and anti-Catholic business.

I have no idea what the reference to Lutherans has to the subject. I do know that the Roman Catholic Church, beyond legitimate question, did more than any other religion or institution to save Jews durung the Holocaust. Einstein said so. Golda Meir (an atheist) said so. Israeli Ambassador Pinchas Lapide said so in book length form in Three popes and the Jews. British historian and Churchill biographer Martin Gilbert has said so. The New York Timnes editorialized so at Christmas, 1942, saying that the Vatican was the only place in continental Europe where the candle of truth still flickered, citing Pius XII's Vatican Radio broadcast attack on the Nazis of 1942. Ummmmm, few of these are known as generally pro-Catholic.

Franciscans running extermination camps???? Nuns exterminating children????? Surely Mother Teresa must have been responsible, too. How about Dubya? He is guilty of everything.

St. Maximilian Kolbe was a Franciscan priest executed (martyred) at Auschwitz when he volunteered to die in place of a Jewish father of five.

I suspect that the real truth underlying your published lies is that some Croatian Catholics killed some Serbian communists and the old Catholic vs. Orthodox struggle in the Balkans is being invoked by communists (who have convinced you) in their never-ending campaign against the Vatican.

Answer to your question: Because the crimes you charge are pure fiction and libel launched against the Roman Catholic Church.

I will be gone for a couple of hours but I have pinged some others to cover in my absence. I will check back later.

24 posted on 01/16/2006 11:00:33 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
>>>>>>>Franciscans running extermination camps???? Nuns exterminating children?????<<<<<

Yes. Perhaps you should first make an informed opinion.

The source is United States Holocaust Memorial Museum:. Some people claim that The Holocaust never happenned. You are not alone.

Portrait of Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic in Ustasa uniform. [Photograph #37690]

Portrait of Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic in Ustasa uniform.

Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, a Croatian Catholic priest and member of the Ustasa who served as commandant of the Jasenovac and Stara Gradiska concentration camps during World War II. Filipovic-Majstorovic, a former Catholic friar known as "Brother Devil," was ordained a priest in 1939. He then served as a chaplain in an Ustasa brigade which massacred over 2,200 Serbian villagers in Drakulic, Motika and Sargovac. Accused of inciting this mass murder of Bosnian Serbs, Filipovic-Majstorovic was court-martialled and brought before a German military court. The papal legate, Ramiro Marcone, suspended him after the massacres. Through the intervention of Vjekoslav Luburic, Filipovic-Majstorovic was brought to Jasenovac on June 10, 1942, where he assumed the post of commandant until October of that year. He was then transferred to Stara Gradiska, where he was commandant until March 20, 1943. After the war Filipovic-Majstorovic was tried as a war criminal. During his trial testimony he admitted to having overseen the murder of between 20,000 to 30,000 prisoners.

25 posted on 01/16/2006 11:30:17 AM PST by DTA
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To: BlackElk
>>>>>Nuns exterminating children????? Surely Mother Teresa must have been responsible, too.<<<<<

Cynisism is no match for the facts.

The nuns in charge of Jastrebarsko extermination camp were no Mother Theresas. More of Weis Angel types. Under The Canon Law, clergy can work outside of Church only with tacit approval of superiors. RC nuns can not go to work where they like without getting permission. Thousands of children died as a result of their "care".

Source is USHMM.

A nun leads a civilian on an inspection of a children's barracks in the Jastrebrsko concentration camp. June-August 1942.

And this is the result of the merciful work by RC nuns:

More evidence of mercy of RC nuns running concentration camp in Jastrebarsko

Caution: explicit material depicting death and suffering.

BlackElk, instead of pinging, perhaps you could spend some time in praying for supporting the horrendous crimes and ridiculing me because I tell the truth abouth the perpetrators.

26 posted on 01/16/2006 11:51:56 AM PST by DTA
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To: BlackElk
>>>>It has a reddish tint by admixture of (Serbian) Tito's Red propaganda<<<<<

Actually, Communist dictator Tito was a Croatian :-)

O tempora, o mores.

27 posted on 01/16/2006 12:12:29 PM PST by DTA
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


28 posted on 01/16/2006 1:19:51 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: DTA

Pope Pius not only condemned Nazis, saved Jews and made an impact -- Catholic priests in German also perished from Nazi oppression due to their unwillingness to ignore Hitler's actions.

You bring up a tired topic.

Buzz off.


29 posted on 01/16/2006 1:27:54 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: razorback-bert

>>I will wait for Dan Brown's book about it.<<

Ooooo, you beat me to it!


30 posted on 01/16/2006 1:32:03 PM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: DTA

What happened there was horrible. But are you saying that the Vatican sent those nuns to starve children?

Trust me, if the Vatican actually had a hand in every convent in the world, the Sisters of St. Joseph in Rocky River, OH would have been turned into a New Age Coven and out of the Catholic Church years ago.


31 posted on 01/16/2006 1:37:31 PM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: DTA; BlackElk; Convert from ECUSA
One of my Jewish coworkers was a child during WWII. She has told me on several occasions of the courageous efforts made by the Catholic Church to shield and protect her. They hid her in a convent where the nuns insisted that she continue her Jewish studies, with which they helped her. After the war, they helped to reunite her with her family.

The nonsense you have posted here has all been debunked decades ago. Here is yet another seminal report on the events.

* * * * *

JEWISH RECOGNITION OF POPE PIUS XII's SUPPORT

Document Reveals Generous Jewish Donation to Catholic Church Following WWII

ROME, 30 JUL 1999 (ZENIT).

Contrary to some recent historical readings, which tend to picture Pius XII as silent, if not condescending, on the question of Nazi anti-Semitism, a document has been discovered in Israel that not only confirms Pius XII's role in defense of persecuted Jews, but reveals that world leaders of the Jewish communities at the time were very aware of his action, to the point that after the war they came to Rome and gave the Catholic Church a very generous donation.

The document was discovered by Lorenzo Cremonesi, the Italian newspaper "Corriere della Sera's" Jerusalem correspondent, who is completing a book on the history of Israel's relations with the Holy See. Cremonesi spoke about his discovery to the magazine "Tempi," sympathetic to the Communion and Liberation movement. While examining the Israeli archives, Cremonesi found a letter from the Vatican, dated October 27, 1945, signed by Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini -- the future Paul VI, who at the time worked in the Secretariat of State; it was addressed to Raffaele Cantoni, President of the Italian Jewish communities. In the letter, Montini gave detailed information on a conversation between Pius XII and Leo Kubwitsky, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress. Montini wrote that during an audience, on behalf of his organization, Kubwitsky gave Pius XII more than one million dollars (at the present value) for "charity works" and expressed "his gratitude to the august Pontiff for his work in support of persecuted Jews."

Montini added, moreover, that Pius XII decided that "the sum should go exclusively to needy persons of Jewish origin." The news has awakened some interest but, as Fr. Peter Gumpel, reporter for Pius XII's beatification cause and an expert in the history of the period, has pointed out, "This is nothing new. It is news that has been published before. And it is only one of hundreds of testimonials of affection and gratitude that different Jewish representatives expressed to Pope Pacelli."

Fr. Pierre Blet, former professor of Ecclesiastical History at the Gregorian, who was one of four persons appointed by Paul VI to compile the "Holy See's Acts and Documents of the Second World War," recalled that in at least three of the twelve volumes of this monumental work, specifically in Nos. 8, 9 and 10, are to be found "all the official documents in which the Jewish communities, the Rabbis of half the world, and other refugees, thank Pius XII and the Catholic Church for all the help and work in their favor." ZE99073005
FULL TEXT

And there are plenty more here.


32 posted on 01/16/2006 1:46:59 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: DTA

IF property was stolen, who has it now? Can it be returned?


33 posted on 01/16/2006 1:47:04 PM PST by x5452
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To: NYer

Ya know! You're messing up a really good story here with facts.

;-).


34 posted on 01/16/2006 1:51:55 PM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: DTA
According to The Canon Law of RC Church, he could not perform this duty without the tacit approval of The Church. Implying that he had the consent of the Church to rob the Jews and to execute non-Croats en mass?
35 posted on 01/16/2006 2:01:30 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: CondorFlight
Kept silent? The New York Times wrote about how Pius XII was the only one who wasn't keeping silent. And I guess Golda Meir was part of the cover up.
36 posted on 01/16/2006 2:10:20 PM PST by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: NYer
>>>>>>>>The nonsense you have posted here has all been debunked decades ago<<<<<<

Like some people before you, You have posted documents dealing with another subjest, the saving of Jews in Italy and Western Europe.

I will repeat - evidence like this has nothing to do with WWII Croatia, the role of some RC clergy in WWII Croatia, and the role of Vatican after WWII in spiriting Croatian Nazi war criminals and their loot.

Your post debunks nothing.

If you want to "debunk nonsese" pertinent to the crimes committed in WWII Croatia, you will have to dig deeper.

1. You have to claim that the genocidal massacres never happened.
2. You have to claim that the murdered were not stripped of their assets as a result of state policy.
3. You have to claim that Fr. Draganovic never managed the stolen assets for the Ustasha government as a head of "Agency for internal colonisation"
4. You may claim there were no forced conversions to RC faith and subsequent murder of those who were converted.
5. You may claim that Ustasha war criminals were never hidden in the Vatican after the end of the War.
6. You may claim that Vatican did not help to spirit war criminals out of the Vatican to South America.
7. You may claim that Vatican never safeguarded Ustasha loot.

You may. The question is, what for? There is irrefutable evidence from Ustasha sources, German sources, U.S. intel and the doctrine Infallibility of Pope is no longer in effect.

37 posted on 01/16/2006 2:23:03 PM PST by DTA
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To: DTA

Have an agenda?

Big chip on your shoulder?

What's your real agenda here, DTA? Slow times in Soviet Canuckistan? Your issue here is with the Church, not what happened, that's clear.

And why is this relevant now?

Need we go into all of the errors and sins of the land of your ancestors (central Europe)? How about going into a written rampage on the problems of that few acres of snow north of the border?

What's your religious affiliation?

Or are you like so many bags of hot air and unwilling to share what you follow?


38 posted on 01/16/2006 3:49:58 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: DTA

Have you ever heard of a person by the name of Virgilio Scattolini?


39 posted on 01/16/2006 5:11:45 PM PST by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: AlaninSA; DTA; FormerLib
Yes, Croatians murdered Serbian Christians, Jews and Gypsies in notorious concentration camps so bad that even German officers complained of their cruelty. This is factual history. Visit the USA Holocaust Museum site, please do and learn more.

The question is: DID the Vatican know?

DID they Cover-up any crimes?? And, if so...WHY??

IF there is treasures to be returned to WWII victims and their families, then they should be returned. It is only fair.

The LORD GOD already has any persons involved in those crimes in the Balkans from WWII, in HIS JURISDICTION. HE WILL TAKE CARE OF ANY AND ALL PUNISHMENT.

I trust in HIS punishment for the nazis and their pals, WHOEVER they may have been.

40 posted on 01/16/2006 6:23:02 PM PST by Lion in Winter (only good nazi/fascist is a dead nazi/fascist!!!!)
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To: Lion in Winter

Still donating to PTL?


41 posted on 01/16/2006 7:29:59 PM PST by AlaninSA (It's one nation under God -- brought to you by the Knights of Columbus)
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To: avg_freeper
>>>>>Have you ever heard of a person by the name of Virgilio Scattolini?<<<<<

Yes, but he is not relevant to this episode. Scatollini was exposed in February 1945 by making stupid mistake. After that, there was a plan to turn him into double agent but when FDR died, the plan fell through. It was in April 1945. Ustashas were still in Croatia, fighting until May 1945. VESSEL operation was finally dumped in August of 1945.

This article deals with Pavelic and other war criminals who were in Vatican until 1948. Bulk of Army intellingence files are from 1946, 1947 and 1948.

Scattollini is not a source of any documents regarding Ustashas and the role of Vatican in sheltering them and spiriting them to South America.

42 posted on 01/16/2006 8:16:09 PM PST by DTA
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To: DTA

Did you know that American Jews sent their money to the Vatican to help their fellow Jews? I guess they were implicit in it too.


43 posted on 01/16/2006 8:24:03 PM PST by tiki
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To: tiki; Lion in Winter
>>>>>>>Did you know that American Jews sent their money to the Vatican to help their fellow Jews? I guess they were implicit in it too.<<<<<<

The funds sent voluntarily by Jewish Americans during the war have nothing to do with this lawsuit, i.e. looted Ustasha treasury that ended in Vatican.

The value of Ustasha loot was at least $80M in 1945 dollars (around $1B today, not including the interest). See for more deatails here: www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/report2/rpt_9806_ng_ustasha.pdf

44 posted on 01/16/2006 8:51:11 PM PST by DTA
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To: big'ol_freeper

I fully agree with your opinion. Anyone who writes such a scandalous claim against Pope Pius XII (which has been many times rebuked with valid testimony), is not to be respected as an unbiased writer. Whether there is any truth about this new information is totally undermined by the false accusation against PP XII.


45 posted on 01/16/2006 9:03:01 PM PST by Gumdrop
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To: NYer; BlackElk

46 posted on 01/17/2006 5:04:30 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (Not a nickel, not a dime, stop sending my tax money to Hamastine!)
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To: DTA
A check into my trusty Encyclopedia Brittanica confirms that Tito was born on May 25, 1892 at Kumrovec near Zagreb, Croatia. So, on that point, you are right. A stopped clock, etc.

It is also true that Tito rebelled against the Nazis (perfectly respectable without more) as a Red Partisan (whoopsie! There's the more!), united Yugoslavia by gun and knout. Respectable people would have rebelled against nazis and communists simultaneously as possible. As a communist, Tito was unable to simultaneously be a Roman Catholic, whatever the details of his baptism. Had Tito been killed in WWI, the world would have been better for it. Ditto Hitler. Ditto Stalin. Ditto Mao.

Well, I despise Tito for being a communist but not for belonging to the wrong squabbling tribe of Yugoslavians. Like most stable human beings, I do not particularly care about your tribal warfares. Bosnians? Serbians? Croatians? Herzogovinians? Montenegrans? Who cares about them or their squabbles OTHER than them? Being a communist is/was even worse than most of what Yugosquabblers have been. As a Catholic, my default position favors Croatia. Croatia is/was not perfect but it seems likely to have been better than the alternatives. As an English/Irish/German/Scottish/Scots-Irish Catholic, my default position on Ireland vs. England is Irish but I don't need to or try to enlist you in the argument which probably is not your own.

George Will wisely observed that the Balkans have produced far more history than could be consumed locally. For those obsessed by Balkan tribal warfare over the millenia, that was not a compliment.

Blessed Alois Cardinal Stepinac will be canonized as a saint in due time, regardless of the Serbian grievance industry. The libel wars of opportunists will not stop that. If Tito could not convict him in Tito's courts, you aren't going to convict him here. Your own posts concede that the priest you identify (and who may have confessed 20,000-30,000 murders) was suspended by the Vatican AFTER the massacres and they did not wait for the trial. Hopefully he was also hanged. Your attacks on nuns are disgraceful. Assuming that any nuns whatsoever or priests, for that matter, participated in atrocities, well, that makes them sinners. It is not surprising that they would have been sinners only the extent of the alleged sins. General smearing of priests and nuns for being either Catholic by baptism or Croatian by birth makes no sense and serves no justice.

Of course, contemporaneously, there was a former seminarian of the Russian Orthodox Church, Josef Vassarionovich Djugashvili aka Stalin who was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of deaths of innocent citizens on a canvas more extensive by far than Yugoslavia or Ireland. The Russian Orthodox Church was the victim of the Soviet Revolution, Stalin or no Stalin. The Russian Orthodox Church was no more responsible for Stalin's misdeeds that the Vatican was for some obscure Balkan suspended priest.

You forgot the "Here We Go Again!" alert.

47 posted on 01/17/2006 8:20:11 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
Talk about here we go again, the Encyclopedia Britannica is not a definitive source on Tito nor Yugoslavia and quoting it as such is tantamount to intellectual laziness.

"...my default position favors Croatia"

Is this based on loyalty to the RCC? If so, you may want to check your moral compass because it's in dire need of being re calibrated.

48 posted on 01/18/2006 7:18:57 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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