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Israel rules Pollard not prisoner of Zion
Science Daily ^ | January 16, 2006

Posted on 01/16/2006 8:10:56 PM PST by Howlin

Edited on 01/16/2006 8:30:39 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: Johnnyboy2000
Take your pick.

Western Europe, including more of its media and "society" chatterers can get with us to take out a threat to it, as well. It can give us more than one division, including combat soldiers, from each of its countries. Abandon thoughts of Lawrence of Arabia and of "empire" lost.

Or we'll eventually destroy all hostile countries in the Middle East with help from our better, newer allies, tell critics on the sidelines to shut-up, and cut-off all military-related contracts and agreements with western Europe. Then western Europe can get busy at trying to defend itself instead of defaming the USA and Israel.

Those are the permissable choices. We don't have to buy from or trust any who refuse to carry their part of the load, and we do know what is said about us elsewhere (including within circles like the RSA).

As for radical Islamism, well, it can accept the existance of the biblical and properly mandated Jewish homeland and of other religions, or it can yield as many bodies as necessary to lose all of its desire to continue fighting.

When we and/or our allies are attacked by enemies who act like animals (imagine nearly a whole ethnic group--even children--taught to cheer for the slaughter of other children by homicide bombers), we in the USA are warlike and mean until we defeat the threat. We'll do whatever it takes.
251 posted on 01/18/2006 8:03:12 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: JeffersonRepublic.com

I'm sorry that I ever posted on this thread, only because I do not (despite my reputation) care to argue with like minded people.

I sense that great errors were made during the 1967 war, and I'm sure that most thinking Israelis and Americans aware of the matter would likely agree.


252 posted on 01/18/2006 8:09:22 PM PST by Radix (Welcome home 3 ID!)
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To: Radix

"I sense that great errors were made during the 1967 war, and I'm sure that most thinking Israelis and Americans aware of the matter would likely agree."

Mistake or not, it happened along time ago. Time heals all wounds.


253 posted on 01/18/2006 8:21:54 PM PST by JeffersonRepublic.com (There is no truth in the news, and no news in the truth.)
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To: familyop

You act is getting old. First of all you don't know me or what I have done in my life or what I do now, so I won't even dignify your personal attack with a response. You sound tough when you are talking about what people you don't know are going to do to other people you don't know, but you would probably pee your pants if you ever had a gun pointed at you, or ever faced any real confrontation outside the fantasy land conflicts you make up in your head, in which Israel is some great Super Power that could conquer the entire planet with the drop of a hat.

If Israel is so strong and Europe so weak, why did they need France to prop them up for the first 20 years of their history? Why did they need France to build their nuclear reactors? Isn't that kind of pathetic to depend on France to defend your country? It is also safe to say that the French military is superior to that of Israel, so I wouldn't bash them as soft when they would hand Israel their ass on a silver platter in a military dispute. Americans can call France soft because we bailed them out of two wars. You don't sound very American to me because you defend Israel for spying on us, and selling our secrets to our enemies, and attacking the Liberty, and for getting our people rounded up and murdered in the Soviet Bloc. You call me anti-American for criticizing Isarel when you take Israel's side against America. It is easy to see where your loyalties lie, and it isn't with AMerica. You are all about what is best for Israel, and your only concern about America is that it continues to prop Israel up regardless of the consequences.

Every time some one brings up Israel wronging America you blame the American leadership, and the American intelligence community. You blamed the Liberty for getting attacked in international waters. You blamed the US for Pollard spying on us because we weren't giving Israel enough of our classified info. Not that they hadn't already been selling it to our enemies behind our back in the first place.

"India eyeballing Pakistan as a cat would watch a mouse."

Yeah a mouse with a nuclear arsenal that would kill 100s of millions of Indians. You are sickeningly uninformed. Pakistan has a very real nuclear capability, and Israel ABM syastem could not stop a large scale nuclear attck that would come in an exchange with Pakistan. The last thing Israel wants to do is pick a fight with Pakistan. Especially with their new air force that the US gave them. On a side not, Israel's security is the last thing India is concerned about.

You make many references to studying history. Maybe you should study what happens to isolated nations with small populations who are surrounded by enemies with huge booming populations.

From a realistic point of view it is a matter of time before the expanding Arab world swallows the state of Israel. You can get angry and call me names but it is not my doing. It is just an inevitablity. That is the way nations come and go.


The other poster made this point by describing the demographic bomb. the only way solve that would be for Israel to commit genocide. Committing genocide to protect the purity of a race. Where have I heard that before. Although they are your enemies, you have more in common with neo-Nazis and Islamists than I do. I don't speak about entire groups of people in blanket terms and state that they have less of a right to exist than I do.

You said:

"Antagonistic, pagan Islamist nations have no effective nuclear offense and little more than millions of bodies for fertilizer to offer in any expanded conflict."

You remind me of someone, but I cannot think of who it is. Oh yeah. It's Hitler. Look up pagan in the dictionary while your at it. There has never been a pagan muslim in the history of the world. It is an oxymoron you dunce.






254 posted on 01/18/2006 9:23:04 PM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: Johnnyboy2000

"From a realistic point of view it is a matter of time before the expanding Arab world swallows the state of Israel. "

You just wish it would happen a little faster, huh?


255 posted on 01/18/2006 11:25:45 PM PST by adam_az (It's the border, stupid!)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
"It is also safe to say that the French military is superior to that of Israel, so I wouldn't bash them as soft when they would hand Israel their ass on a silver platter in a military dispute."

France is a pit of anti-American, dhimmi cowards. Are all of the French pedestrians, yet, BTW?

"Yeah a mouse with a nuclear arsenal that would kill 100s of millions of Indians. You are sickeningly uninformed. Pakistan has a very real nuclear capability, and Israel ABM syastem could not stop a large scale nuclear attck that would come in an exchange with Pakistan."

You're dreaming for Pakistan and again showing your sentiment against our allies. Islam keeps Pakistan so filthy, that the country can't properly maintian expensive military equipment. Musharraf's good little helper, though I can't say as much for most of his citizens.

"Maybe you should study what happens to isolated nations with small populations who are surrounded by enemies with huge booming populations.
From a realistic point of view it is a matter of time before the expanding Arab world swallows the state of Israel.
"

If the radical elements of those nations try to move on Israel, the USA or any of the other countries they hate, what will we do with all of the bodies afterward? So many square miles of radical Islamist corpses might present a minor health hazard.

"The other poster made this point by describing the demographic bomb. the only way solve that would be for Israel to commit genocide. Committing genocide to protect the purity of a race."

Nazis and Islamists do tend to project their desires on others. That's why in the end, they get the same kind of fate that they tried to perpetuate against others. Radical Islam can make as many babies as it desires. But with Islamist culture, their progeny will always be somewhat retarded in comparison to the nations they want to "wipe off the map" or "drive into the sea."

"You remind me of someone, but I cannot think of who it is. Oh yeah. It's Hitler. Look up pagan in the dictionary while your at it. There has never been a pagan muslim in the history of the world."

That's a common Islamist projection against the USA and Israel. The culture of moon-god worship was started during the 7th Century by an hallucinating sodomite.
256 posted on 01/18/2006 11:34:25 PM PST by familyop (Essayons)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; adam_az

The "Arab world" in as far as radical Islam is concerned, will be overrun, occupied and reeducated in the near future. It's already beginning to lay down under pressure. Every day, more of our good, US-trained Islamist killers are Arabs themselves.


257 posted on 01/18/2006 11:54:20 PM PST by familyop (Combat engineers!)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; adam_az

Correction for clarification:

Every day, more of our good, US-trained killers of Islamists are Arabs themselves.


258 posted on 01/18/2006 11:59:28 PM PST by familyop (Combat engineers!)
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To: familyop
"The "Arab world" in as far as radical Islam is concerned, will be overrun, occupied and reeducated in the near future. It's already beginning to lay down under pressure. Every day, more of our good, US-trained Islamist killers are Arabs themselves."

I knew what you meant and agree 100%. Radical Islam is an insidious disease on humanity. I would love to see a world where Israel and the Arabs could live side by side in peace. The problem is I have had my Jewish friends (I have a few believe it or not) and my Arab friends (I have a few believe it or not, although most are Arab Christian) tell me that it will never happen, and these are people who would like to see it happen.

I would be lying if I said I didn't harbor some hostility toward Israel. It is obvious in my posts. I have hostility toward France and Germany (the home of many of my ancestors way back before Germany was even really a country)also. All in all I like these countries though.

But I despise Islamic Fundamentalism. Despise it. But I realize a majority of Muslims in the middle east think these people are nuts also. They really do. I've been to the region and firmly believe this. This is not to suggest that there are not millions of Islamists who wield great power in the region. And millions more who sympathize with them. I still feel the world can solve this problem without annihilating Islam. We just need to tweak it a little bit; ie kill or silence the Islamist leaders who perpetuate hateful, fanatical beliefs.

As for Israel, the state's survival will always be a major struggle because of the demographics of the region. People are misreading my statements if they think I am rooting for Islamists to destroy Israel. This is just how a see the situation. I do not share your optimism that Israel will survive in the long run. I am hopeful Jews will remain there and have a stake in the government, but believe that the "Jewish State" will eventually be replaced by either a multi-ethnic republic where Jews have some autonomy but not a nation of their own(this is the more optimistic scenario), or it will be replaced by an Muslim Arab dominated nation (this is the less optimistic scenario). I am sure neither of these options are acceptable by your standards, but I believe one of these two scenarios will occur in the next 50 years.
259 posted on 01/19/2006 12:34:23 AM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
"I would be lying if I said I didn't harbor some hostility toward Israel. It is obvious in my posts. . .I am hopeful Jews will remain there and have a stake in the government, but believe that the "Jewish State" will eventually be replaced by either a multi-ethnic republic where Jews have some autonomy but not a nation of their own(this is the more optimistic scenario), or it will be replaced by an Muslim Arab dominated nation (this is the less optimistic scenario)."

You will eventually give up both of your kinds of "optimistic scenario," because we (several nations) are not going to let that happen.

An ethnic group that is indoctrinated from birth with hatred against Jews will continue to conduct itself as something like a community of roaches. Members of that community are being given a roach motels to live in for the time being.

We (several nations) are going clean up other national sources of the terrorist problem in Israel (Iran, for one). Then we'll go through with something similar to a denazification plan for the terrorist community there (i.e., the "Palestinians"). That will involve much more than a "tweak" of the culture.

Keep your eyes on Iran, and know that it won't be the first source of terrorists (and their beliefs) to fall. After we subdue the various national sources of the terrorism, denazification will begin with new texts and other media for all of the little terrorist "Palestinian" kids and parents in Israel.
260 posted on 01/19/2006 1:33:30 AM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: familyop

"You will eventually give up both of your kinds of "optimistic scenario," because we (several nations) are not going to let that happen."

I don't believe "the powers that be in America are concerned with the survival of a Jewish State. The njust want stability so that America can do business in that region. The Arab world is a market that is waiting to be opened to American business. It is an emerging market, that is not emerging as fast as we would like because of the conflicts in the region including ths conflict. Young people in Saudi, Jordan, and Iran listen to raock music and hip hop from America, and watch American movies. Imagine what you would think as a teenager in these countries where dating is outlawed. They hate these governments. If we can reach out to these communities in creative ways, they will do our work for us to democratize the region and bring it out of the Dark Ages.


261 posted on 01/19/2006 1:53:54 AM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: familyop

The United States of America has three goals in its foreign affairs.

1)Defend the US from foreign enemies.

2)Open new markets, and protect existing ones so that the US economy can continue to grow and prosper.

3)Premote represntative government and human rights around the world

These are listed in order of importance.





262 posted on 01/19/2006 2:09:17 AM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
Don't try to feed me that crap in a discussion about defense. I've pledged oaths for various duties to defend our country, its allies, states and to protect in cities.

If you want to learn something about the situation with Iran, read the following.

A carnival of Iran absurdities
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560516/posts
263 posted on 01/19/2006 2:48:02 AM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
"I don't believe "the powers that be in America are concerned with the survival of a Jewish State."

Maybe you're in a Democrat state.

If so, beyond our obligation to our allies, try reading our 2004 Republican Party Platform (search phrase). Bear in mind, the way things are going in Gaza. The EU recently stopped funding to the PA (FR post). The World Bank is not yet giving its part to the Palestinians. And if Hamas wins in elections, the USA must stop funding (law). Why give money to terrorists (including Fatah) for weapons?
264 posted on 01/19/2006 3:04:46 AM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: familyop

When did you have to take an oath 'as an American citizen' to defend a foreign country?

Sounds unusual.


265 posted on 01/19/2006 7:38:21 AM PST by rcocean (Copyright is theft and loved by Hollywood socialists)
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To: rcocean
"When did you have to take an oath 'as an American citizen' to defend a foreign country?
Sounds unusual.
"

...good. [grin] See the excerpts.

"...do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;...that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. . ."

Find the word, "treaties" (with alliances in mind) in the following.

U.S. Constitution, Article II

Then return to "orders" in the Oath.

Here's a note of caution, though. If liberaltarians/loserdopians look at that document, they tend to feel a burning sensation in their skins, begin to lose consciousness, and only recall of a few words from it.
266 posted on 01/19/2006 11:39:40 AM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: rcocean
On a topic related to a reason behind the post above and the thread, here are some interesting and important excerpts from Article I.

"Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit;. . .No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war,. . ."

Only the worst of losers try to violate that.
267 posted on 01/19/2006 11:53:05 AM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: familyop

""...do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;...that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. . ."

Find the word, "treaties" (with alliances in mind) in the following.

U.S. Constitution, Article II

Then return to "orders" in the Oath."

You are on shaky ground. Nothing in Article II (or in The Constitution as a whole)says anything about taking oaths to defend other nations. It says the President can make treaties with the advice of congress. I am also not aware of any treaty that binds the US to to go to war for Israel. If there is one it should be need Israel to protect us from anything.

You have also implied several times that Israel is some type of buffer between the West and Islamist terrorism. If this is true why did 3,000 Americans die on 9/11? Why have hundreds of Spanish citizens been killed in terror attacks? Why was the British subway atacked? A small nation the size of New Jersey with 6 million people is not a buffer between Islam in the West. Israel's existence does not make the US any safer. The argument that it does is a fallacious. Have 3,000 Israelis been killed in a single terrorist attack?


268 posted on 01/19/2006 12:22:33 PM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: familyop

"Maybe you're in a Democrat state.

If so, beyond our obligation to our allies, try reading our 2004 Republican Party Platform (search phrase). Bear in mind, the way things are going in Gaza. The EU recently stopped funding to the PA (FR post). The World Bank is not yet giving its part to the Palestinians. And if Hamas wins in elections, the USA must stop funding (law). Why give money to terrorists (including Fatah) for weapons?"


The Republican Party is just like the Democratic Party in the sense that its leaders will always say what sounds good in order to appeal to its base. The people who really run this country know that the survival of any one nation has little to do with the interests of the US. Many people n America and our government share your emotional attachment to Israel, but that is all it is, emotional. It is not rooted in any real need for that country to exist. It really makes littled differenc to long term US interests. The US has a lot more riding on the existence of friendly oil and petroleum producing states than it does on the existence of Israel. They have nothing to brng to the table that we need. That country is the only one in the region that doesn't produce oil or anything else of value.


269 posted on 01/19/2006 12:35:06 PM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
"You have also implied several times that Israel is some type of buffer between the West and Islamist terrorism."

..."implied" in what ways?

"If this is true why did 3,000 Americans die on 9/11?"

...because elements in quite a few Arab nations seek to kill or convert every individual of the rest of the world to Islam.

"Why have hundreds of Spanish citizens been killed in terror attacks?"

...because elements in quite a few Arab nations seek to kill or convert every individual of the rest of the world to Islam.

"Why was the British subway atacked?"

...because elements in quite a few Arab nations--roughly 80 million of them by one estimate--seek to kill or convert every individual of the rest of the world to Islam.

"A small nation the size of New Jersey with 6 million people is not a buffer between Islam in the West."

Terrorists and their sympathizers are so evil, that they believe that to be a good argument against the existance of Israel. Germans before and during WWII were also culturally set against "sentimentality" and believed that bullying and cowardice was strength. Your argument is fallacious, in that it's the effort ratio to the population number that counts. Those 6,000,000 people have destroyed and other punished quite a few terrorists, given their small tax base and military--terrorists who also seek to conquer western Europe, the USA and the rest of the world.

"Israel's existence does not make the US any safer. The argument that it does is a fallacious."

No, your argument against the existance of Israel is dishonest and is a fallacy. First, Israel is now fighting Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah and other organizations recognized by the USA as terrorist organizations. ...and then some.

"Have 3,000 Israelis been killed in a single terrorist attack?"

Far more of them have died by Islamist terrorist attacks than have our own people or the people of our other allies--many of them children. But by much of what you've written in this thread so far, we see that and your affinity for a culture that cheers at the assassinations of groups of children and publicized beheadings of our fellow citizens.
270 posted on 01/19/2006 1:33:30 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
"Many people n America and our government share your emotional attachment to Israel, but that is all it is, emotional. It is not rooted in any real need for that country to exist. It really makes littled differenc to long term US interests. The US has a lot more riding on the existence of friendly oil and petroleum producing states than it does on the existence of Israel."

That's a statement of support for our declared enemies and against the existance of a friendly country--something you denied earlier in the thread. It's obvious by some of your previous statements in the thread that you aren't being honest in mentioning "friendly oil...producing states." There's nothing friendly about some of the terrorist regimes you've stated sympathy with so far.

"They have nothing to brng to the table that we need. That country is the only one in the region that doesn't produce oil or anything else of value."

The terrorist Arab countries would attack us with or without Israel's existance. Oil/money are not our most significant motivations for going to war or declining to do so. You obviously don't have a high regard for our USA.

You'll have a much more difficult time arguing for the existance of Islam. About the only way to keep Islam from being utterly destroyed will be to talk yourselves out of any and all noticable hatred and antagonism against Jews, Christians, Hindus and others.
271 posted on 01/19/2006 1:56:05 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Johnnyboy2000

As for "oil," we're not very far away from killing every semi-human roach in Iran that opposes the existance of Israel or any other good country.

Those who will be allowed to live will get along with us just fine. Then we'll move to the next Palestinian-supporting terrorist regime, and so on, until we finally arrive at re-situating and reeducating the terrorist culture that, in part, now resides in Gaza. In a decade or two (unless we see an opportunity to nuke the world's trash sooner), the "Arab world" will be as compliant and docile as became other groups that we once denazified.


272 posted on 01/19/2006 2:08:08 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; Slings and Arrows


Johnnyboy2000, how do you expect us to regard supporters of terrorism?
273 posted on 01/19/2006 2:21:07 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: Johnnyboy2000


Of course 4 out of 5 people in the USA support Israel. The reasons are obvious.
274 posted on 01/19/2006 2:23:17 PM PST by familyop ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." --President Bush)
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To: familyop

"Of course 4 out of 5 people in the USA support Israel."

Everyone who pays taxes in the US supports Israel.


275 posted on 01/19/2006 4:54:48 PM PST by Johnnyboy2000 (Give it all up tomorrow to live in world without crime, and go back to the circuit riding motocross)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; familyop

What you are talking about is called "appeasement." There are also several uglier words for it.

Throw your friends to the wolves, and you'll run out of friends before you run out of wolves.


276 posted on 01/19/2006 4:57:56 PM PST by Slings and Arrows ("MOO...BANG...MOOO!")
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To: Johnnyboy2000

Wrong site bucko. Take it elsewhere.


277 posted on 01/19/2006 5:05:17 PM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: Johnnyboy2000; familyop; neutronsgalore
The other poster made this point by describing the demographic bomb. the only way solve that would be for Israel to commit genocide. Committing genocide to protect the purity of a race. Where have I heard that before. Although they are your enemies, you have more in common with neo-Nazis and Islamists than I do. I don't speak about entire groups of people in blanket terms and state that they have less of a right to exist than I do.

You could have had the courtesy to include the person you were quoting, a moot point since you seem to be absent now. The Islamists are not a threat to the racial purity of the Jewish people, they are a threat to the survival of the Jewish people. The Iranians do not want to marry Israeli's, they want to wipe Israel from the map, they have been crystal clear about that.

The modern day Haman who runs Iran was elected by the people of Iran, they are responsible for putting him in power. If Israel is forced to annihilate the threat then the people of Iran who placed the threat in power will merely be reaping what they themselves sowed.

The course of action you propose for Israel would rest on the assumption that they should place less value on the lives of their own population than the lives of the enemies population. Were I or my loved ones to be attacked by wolves I would shoot the wolves, I would not worry about the fate of the wolves.
278 posted on 01/19/2006 6:42:45 PM PST by fallujah-nuker (America needs more SAC and less empty sacs.)
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To: Johnnyboy2000
...The Arab world is a market that is waiting to be opened to American business. It is an emerging market, that is not emerging as fast as we would like because of the conflicts in the region including ths conflict. Young people in Saudi, Jordan, and Iran listen to raock music and hip hop from America, and watch American movies...

You blew what few shreds of credibility you had left with this one! Sacrifice the lives of our troops so that Kanye West and the Dixie Chicks can sell more albums overseas is a terrible idea.
279 posted on 01/19/2006 6:52:42 PM PST by fallujah-nuker (America needs more SAC and less empty sacs.)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; neutronsgalore
The United States of America has three goals in its foreign affairs.

1)Defend the US from foreign enemies.

2)Open new markets, and protect existing ones so that the US economy can continue to grow and prosper.

3)Premote represntative government and human rights around the world.


This is the best one yet! I love number two the best, we are running a 700 billion trade deficit and you maintain that one of our goals is to protect existing markets.
280 posted on 01/19/2006 6:57:53 PM PST by fallujah-nuker (America needs more SAC and less empty sacs.)
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To: Johnnyboy2000; neutronsgalore
The United States of America has three goals in its foreign affairs.

1)Defend the US from foreign enemies.

2)Open new markets, and protect existing ones so that the US economy can continue to grow and prosper.

3)Premote represntative government and human rights around the world.


This is the best one yet! I love number two the best, we are running a 700 billion trade deficit and you maintain that one of our goals is to protect existing markets.
281 posted on 01/19/2006 6:58:05 PM PST by fallujah-nuker (America needs more SAC and less empty sacs.)
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