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To: rmlew

You have the first post on this thread listing ways that israel has helped or accomodated the US, thanks.

Only three quick questions/clarifications -

1. it is not known for certain if the attack on the liberty was accidental. There is certainly circumstantial reason to doubt it, but we will probably never know.
2. re soviet intelligence FROM israel, it is said that israel gave raw data from pollard to the USSR which they then used to unravel parts of the us intel network in e europe. this is another 'we will never know for sure' item but it would explain the vehement US position on pollard after all these years.
3. multiple reports over the years of our military tech being traded to china by israel, to the point that they were excluded from a major project recently. It would be more offensive if the chinese weren't perfectly capable of stealing the tech by becoming a sub-contractor here in the US instead.


130 posted on 01/17/2006 5:31:10 AM PST by WoofDog123
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To: WoofDog123

http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm

"Washington, June 10, 1967.

The Secretary of State presents his compliments to His Excellency the Ambassador of Israel and has the honor to refer to the Ambassador's Note of June 10, 1967 concerning the attack by Israeli aircraft and torpedo boats on the United States naval vessel U.S.S. Liberty,

. . .

In these circumstances, the later military attack by Israeli aircraft on the U.S.S. Liberty is quite literally incomprehensible. As a minimum, the attack must be condemned as an act of military recklessness reflecting wanton disregard for human life.

The subsequent attack by Israeli torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life. . . . The U.S.S. Liberty was peacefully engaged, posed no threat whatsoever to the torpedo boats, and obviously carried no armament affording it a combat capability. It could and should have been scrutinized visually at close range before torpedoes were fired.

. . . the Secretary of State wishes to make clear that the United States Government expects the Government of Israel also to take the disciplinary measures which international law requires in the event of wrongful conduct by the military personnel of a State."

There has been no statement in the last thirty-eight years by the United States government reversing or amending this formal position.

The Israeli Defense Forces Chief Military Prosecutor, immediately following the attack, filed formal charges recommending court martial proceedings against a number of Israeli military personnel.[36] The examining judge disagreed with United States position that the attack.

As a result of this blanket absolution, no one in the Israeli government or military has received so much as a reprimand for their involvement in the attack,[38] much less the punishment demanded by the United States ("the United States Government expects the Government of Israel also to take the disciplinary measures which international law requires in the event of wrongful conduct by the military personnel of a State").


139 posted on 01/17/2006 6:07:32 AM PST by rcocean (Copyright is theft and loved by Hollywood socialists)
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To: WoofDog123
1. it is not known for certain if the attack on the liberty was accidental. There is certainly circumstantial reason to doubt it, but we will probably never know.
There has been a Naval Inquiry, two Congressional Inquiries, and an Israeli inquiry. The results are unanimous.
Recently the NSA released the transcripts of communications by Israeli pilots. These suggest that there was confusion along the entire chain of command.

2. re soviet intelligence FROM israel, it is said that israel gave raw data from pollard to the USSR which they then used to unravel parts of the us intel network in e europe. this is another 'we will never know for sure' item but it would explain the vehement US position on pollard after all these years.
I am aware of the claims. How Pollard is supposed to have passed on intelligence to the USSR to which he had no clear access is a mystery to me. On the other hand Aldrich Ames and Hansen had this knowlege!
I believe that the CIA and FBI covered their behinds by adding charges to Pollard, and failed to clean up. This allowed Ames and Hansen to proceed. Of course, Pollard's crime, while not as severe as has been claimed, is bad enough. He should die in jail.

3. multiple reports over the years of our military tech being traded to china by israel, to the point that they were excluded from a major project recently. It would be more offensive if the chinese weren't perfectly capable of stealing the tech by becoming a sub-contractor here in the US instead.
Israel did sell China the Python-3 and other weapons with the approval of the US. Israel also sold other weapons systems or components, which were imrpoved versionsof american equipment. This is both intolerable from our perspective and stupid from that of sane Israelis.
Still, the US is arming Israel's enemies.

210 posted on 01/17/2006 11:46:05 PM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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