Posted on 01/18/2006 12:22:09 PM PST by Dr. Marten
I don't speak the language well enough to be in judgement, but I suggest that you google the phrase and review what folks who apparently know say......that's where I got my information...
Actually even Zhong guo (to use the Communist pronounciation) isn't just "middle kingdom".
Ever heard of Zhong hua?
Or Hua-Ren?
Zhong is actually short for Zhong Hua. In fact, People's Republic of China is actually Zhong HUA Ren-Min...... not "Zhong ren-min".
Zhong guo is a short name for "China", just as Mei guo is a short name for USA. The first time I have ever heard of "China" being referred to as a the "Middle Kingdom" was when we moved to the US from Taiwan :)
The Jelly doughnut refered to is called a berliner pfannkuchen, shortened to berliner, but no one would have mistaken him for saying "I am a jelly doughnut", except a novice in German, or someone with an agenda. But there was no mistake in his wordage. The more common usage would have been "Ich bin Berliner" but "Ich bin ein Berliner" is also correct, just not used as much.
LOL ping!
Actually even Zhong guo (to use the Communist pronounciation) isn't just "middle kingdom".
Ever heard of Zhong hua?
Or Hua-Ren?
"Zhong is actually short for Zhong Hua. In fact, People's Republic of China is actually Zhong HUA Ren-Min...... not "Zhong ren-min".
Zhong guo is a short name for "China", just as Mei guo is a short name for USA. The first time I have ever heard of "China" being referred to as a the "Middle Kingdom" was when we moved to the US from Taiwan :)"
Now some of your other comments finally make sense. Awhile back you tried to have the lot of us believe that you were from China, but now you admit that you are actually from Taiwan (just as I suspected).
That would explain why you were so adamant about cold beer being readily available in "China", when in fact it's not (though it is growing more common on the Mainland. Believe me, I know. Aside from living there, I've also been from one end of the country to the other.
As for having ever heard of Zhong Hua...yes, of course I have. My residence permit for China is written as "ÖлªÈËÃñ¹²ºÍ¹ú(Zhonghua renmin gong he guo".
It's interesting that you come from Taiwan and yet you are a shill for the CCP.
You're such a f$%ktard!
Criticizing someone or a group of people does not make one a racist. I criticize Americans just as much and in the same manner.
Not that it's any business of yours, but all I'm waiting for is for the consulate to issue my wife her visa - the paperwork is done.
You didn't prove squat. Nearly every foreign name has a phonetic replication in Chinese - including peoples names. All I was saying is that it's not used. Ever look at a map of the world in Chinese? It's not written phonetically, it's written as Meiguo. Same with references in the media.
Actually, I have asked you many many times where you were from, but you never answered me. All you would ever say is that you were from "southern China".
As for the beer. You go with that jack. It's a small detail, but it just goes to show that you don't know as much as you claim.
It's not that you can't get cold beer, it's that it's not readily available.
Now crawl back under your rock.
If you want to say "I am a jelly roll," you say, "Ich bin ein Berliner."
Since German doesn't have an INdefinite article, use or omission of the definite article has a . . . definite . . . effect.
Some say he did it on purpose, just to get a laugh.
. . . that sounds like a CYA to me, though!
(and I've made enough mistakes in German to know!)
If the truth hurts, so be it.
I didn't say that ALL words are phonetically based. YOUR claim was MEIGUO = beautiful country. Which is TRUE ONLY in LITERAL translation, but it's actually based on PHONETIC translation originally. FA-Guo, or Frace, doesn't mean it's a LAWFUl country if you were so idiotic as to translate it literally. English may not use things phonetically, but all maps from China do, the only possible exception being countries that uses CHINESE characters, such as Japan.
No, I have stated MANY times that I am from Taiwan. In many threads people have asked me and I replied what it is. Never said I am from southern China. Maybe you mistaken it for someone else. But, my father is from Jiangsu province, so maybe that's where you get it from.
"Criticizing someone or a group of people does not make one a racist. I criticize Americans just as much and in the same manner"
I don't see the same on your blog. I see your hate filled shrill on it all the time on some daily nuisances living in China. And I have asked you on your blog -- if you hate it so much, then LEAVE! I don't see the same venom you have with Americans that you do with Chinese people in general. Compare to other ex-pat blogs, yours is the worst. Why don't you show your blog to your wife and the comments you make on her own people?
As far as me being a "shill" for the CCP. Why don't you ask your wife the following question:
"If Taiwan declares independence, what should China do? Would you support the CCP to attack Taiwan if Chen shui-bian declares independence?"
And
"If Taiwan declares independence and war breaks out and JAPAN attacks China, would you support the CCP?"
I smell a divorce coming for you once you hear her answers.
You don't answer the question.
You try to duck and evade.
At this point, based on all the foregoing absurd positions you made backing the CCCP's tyranny, I am inclined to conclude you have been accurately "made".
Your cover has been blown.
Me in english is the same sound as mi in Chinese.
Mei is like may in english.
The meaning is somewhat relevant. The phonemes were chosen for the meaning of the character to some degree.
CCP netagandists often claim to be from Taiwan.
How do you pronounce AMERICA? THe "ME" in AMERICA sounds like MEI. DUH!!!! It's phonetic based. Just like Fa-guo, De-Guo etc., all phonetic.
Yeah, I noticed that right off the bat.
He's a shill.
BTW, I challenge you to find ONE racist comment that I've made on my blog. You can't do it!
Criticizing someone's behavior, mannerisms or other social characteristics is not racism.
"Never once did I say I hated living in China. It's quite natural to rant about such annoyances as those I've posted on my site when you're living in a country that is so backwards as what you are accustomed to. I suggest you take a look at Talk Talk China or Peter's China blog. There's no shortage of Waiguoren who continually feel aggitated by the experiences encountered in China."
It's the way you address the people that you're so against. That's what racism is. If they feel agitated, they can leave, no one is forcing them to live there.
"Sorry to say, but I have several maps from China and every single one of them has labled America as "meiguo""
Again, Mei-Guo is phonetic based. America, the "ME" in America is MEI. If you don't get that, that's your problem. Meiguo is a short name for United States of America, there is a much longer official name for the USA in Chinese if you've ever bothered to look it up.
"I don't follow your posts except when they are directed towards me. I specifically asked you several times when we were debating the beer issue before which part of China you were from and you NEVER gave me a direct answer. Instead, you continually stated that you were from a city in the "southern part of China". Perhaps it is you who has they short memory."
Show me the post that i wrote where I said i am from southern China? Show it, or shut the f--k up.
"You want to talk about racism, you don't have the slightest idea until you've spent some time as a foreigner living in China, married to a Chinese woman. I can't even count the number of times that I and other foreigners have been referred to as a monkey. It's not uncommon at all for foreigners who are married to Chinese women to be assaulted in China. Hell, three Chinese businessmen attacked a foreigners (Chinese) wife while their buddies held him down. Then they sped off in a taxi."
If they are as racist as you are on your blog, then I can understand why people would do such things. Again, no one is forcing you to live there.
Right, i suppose those caricatures in the early 1900'sof blacks aren't racist either, even though it's just making fun of someone's behavior or mannerism.
No.
Meiguo is phonetic, yes. But choosing which character that is pronounced mei was not random.
Faguo as well. Fa was chosen because of the law aspect.
"As for Japan attacking China, get real. That will never happen unless China attacks first."
If they get involved in the Taiwan issue by using military force, it's the same thing.
LOL!! Right, that's why they chose Fa-guo.
I suppose De-Guo is for MORAL country eh? Ever heard of DEUTSCHLAND? IT's phonetic, as close as you can get in Chinese.
Even more annoying than people getting Chinese tattoed on their body are the 5th-year philosophy majors who get Sanskrit tattoed on their body. You will never meet a more repulsively pretentious person in your life than someone with a Sanskrit tattoo.
They chose the de they chose because it was nice.
It's phonetic, of course, but other considerations were involved.
It's OK. I know you are psychotic.
A form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another.
What is a "Sanskrit" tattoo?
LOL! :)
I was busy reading Gordon's response that I missed tallhappy's "to get" or "to receive" for Germany :)
I don't know of any Chinese name for other countries that aren't phonetic, other than Japan because they use Chinese characters. I think they also don't realize that Chinese often shorten the name because it's a pain to write 4 characters when one would do. Deutschland is shorten to "De", America is shortened using the "me in A'me'rica" or Mei in the closest Chinese pronounciation.
Some countries are harder to pronounce, like Portugal, which is "Pu Tao Ya" and never shortened. Personally I have never learned Pinyin in terms of using Roman characters (Taiwan teaches a different method), but Tallhappy would read Portgual as "Grape seed" or "Grape sprout" i bet :) LOL!!!!
What's confusing, i'll bet, for all these non-native Chinese speakers is that not ALL country ends with "guo". :) Usually the country with "SHORTENED" names, ends with "guo".
Zhong "guo". Shortened
Mei "guo". shortend.
Fa "guo". France - shortened
De "guo". Germany/Deutchland, shortened.
Au-da-li-ya (Australia) non shortened.
Au Zhou (Australia, or rather, Australia CONTINENT as the literal translation), shortened.
Eee-Da-Li (Italy) - NOT shortened (no guo in there
Pu-Tao-Ya (Portugal) - NOT shortened (Tallhappy would say say Grape Sprout country!)
In-Du (India, Hindu) - Not shortened. Again, no "guo" either.
Some countries such as USA, France, and Germany had their name shortened for such a long period that no one ever uses their true phonetic names any longer, even in maps, but the real name is there if anyone wants to get an older map and it'll show up.
Some countries, such as Australia, can be called with either the long version or the short version.
Some countries like Italy, Portugal or Spain, only long version is used.
In other words, nearly any country ends with "guo" has its name shortened. Not all, but most.
(I apologize for not using Pinyin in the right way, but my pinyin education in Taiwan was with different characters, non-Roman/non-Western characters).
It's a dead language that was used thousands of years ago in India from what I can gather.
Lots of places in Germany have food items named after them, depending on where the dish originated. For instance, a Hamburger is both a resident of Hamburg AND something that White Castle serves.
The correct usage is:
Ich bin Berliner.
If you add an "ein", it means a jelly donut.
When a child asks the teacher 'Can I go to the bathroom?', I think it's a pretty safe bet that the teacher knows they are capable of going and that the correct usage would be 'May I go...'
My point was that either de could be used -- as you state and I stated earlier, they are pronounced exactly the same -- the question is why did they use the character meaning virtue?
Why not? Why did they use the characters for grapes for Portugal? Why not?
Literal translation of Chinese characters for countries is STUPID, pure and simple. You like to go down this path as if they chose France as a Lawful country or Germans because they have morals? LOL!!! You obviously have no idea that they're all SHORTENED names as what I have mentioned earlier.
Frankly, I find the use of 'China' to describe Zhongguo a bit irritating -- China is a kitchen item made from, well, dirt. I wonder why they don't call Italians as Pizzas?
Kennedy should have said: "Ich bin Berliner" not "ein Berliner".
Knock it off, all of you, I am not a moderator, nor do I play one on TV, but I do know how to ping them to a thread. This is supposed to be a family forum, the name calling and !@#$%$$% swearing will get me to pull this from my children’s allow list if this stuff keeps up.
Pganini: I spent two years in Taiwan as a missionary, (Mostly around Gao Shong) I know what Bo Po Mo Fo is. There is no reason a native speaker would be well versed in Romanization.
Tallhappy: There are specific characters that are used to translate things, this is violated all the time, but that’s the way it was originally set up, it’s phonetic (Look up the original translation of Coke when it went to the mainland for some laughs)
Dr. Marten: I have lived as a foreigner in Japan, Taiwan, Visited Israel when my sister lived there, and Germany when my other sister lived there. I know what you mean about being a stranger in a strange land. That still does not excuse the tone of this thread.
Please try to have an enlightened conversation, which this forum is renowned for.
I leave you with some advice my father gave me: “You cannot change the mind with logic that was made up without the use thereof.” So if you ever feel you are answering illogical arguments, don’t, just smile and move on to other topics. (Or at least go into a private area where my children won't read it.)
I certainly didn't expect the thread I clicked on to take the turn it did. Who knew Chinese tattoos were this controversial? ;)
Agreed.
FYI, I was hardly complaing about being a stranger in a foreign land.
I've spent time in Japan as well as a few other countries and China is a completely different environment. Unless you've been there, you wouldn't understand.
Japan is not a 3rd world country, China is. Comparing China with Japan or US is ridiculous. China is a poor country, in case you didn't notice.
All i see from you is that you show people picking their buggers, about how "rude" they treat you because you're a foreigner (try being a foreigner or someone from another ethnicity in the US and find out just how well the locals treat you), blah blah blah. You have this superior notion that you're better than the locals, similar to other expats in China. Like I said, if you think are better, then leave. Obviously something has kept you there that you're staying there despite all the inferior local people have treated you, but you never mention those on your blog. It's probably one of the most negative and racist blog out there on China. If you can't handle that, tough.
What I have found when I was in Shanghai for example, is that the foreigners, the caucasians, Europeans, etc. treats local LIKE CRAP. I am not kidding. I went to starbucks and an American white boy came in and ordered a pastry and wanted it to be warmed. Well, the local girl took it and put it in the microwave. When she gave it to him, he YELLED LOUDLY at her in English and said "THIS IS NOT WARM!" and then yell something else that i can't say on this forum. I don't think he'll DARE to do that in the United States, but he does it in China. I have seen it in other shops as well. Note -- this is not in some backwater Chinese village, this is in SHANGHAI, in the wealthiest part of it where it's all mostly expat + well off Chinese. They're all educated and yet they treat the locals like crap. If you are that girl @ starbucks, what would be your impression of Americans?
And more to your issue of foreigners being beat up -- The fact is, the local cops treat foreigners differently. If a foreigner commit a petty crime, they're let go because they dont' want to deal with an international incident where the US state department would get involved, and some foreigners take advantage of it. The locals are pissed off for the reason above and it's no wonder some violence (which i do not condone) occurs against foreigners.
Then you have the situation above where the foreigners, the expats treat the locals like crap, probably the same condescending attitudes that you have.
Gao shiung huh? (or Kaoshiung for the official translation). That's where I was born, actually.
And no, we were never taught Romanization of Buh Puh Muh Fuh. I believe China uses Romanization for Buh Puh Muh Fuh, but Taiwan under KMT uses its own system and a separate "language" to describe the Pinyin. The fact is, with Western characters, you can't ever get to the right pronounciation just by speaking it as if it's a Western language. In the computer age, I think it's important to use alphabets + some special characters to describe the language simply for efficiency reasons, but as far as pronounciation is concerned, it doesn't really help. In fact, I think Romanization of Chinese characters hurt people who are trying to learn Chinese, because they would use their native (whether English or what not) way to pronounce the Roman characters, which are NOT suppose to pronounce like English/Latin/Italian/whatever.
Sad but true. Too many travelers forget to pack their manners.
two, your comments in no way contradicts anything I stated and in fact your comment is difficult to understand concerning any point you are making.
I have stated that of course the terms are phonetic. I have also stated that the choice of character from among the same phoneme is not purely random.
Everything I am saying is 100% accurate and obvious and universally understood.
It's not a msytery or secret.
The issue becomes CCP netagandists seek to attack and villify for the simple sake of spreading anger, dissension and confusion.
They are classical disruptors.
PS is Kaohsiung or gaoxiong (although of course what you mean is understtod and the difference are trivial). This later comment is an example of what the CCP disruptors do -- they try to turn routine non-controversial discussions on something as simple as translation or tranilliteration in to a vicious fight with some sort of broader implication.
And, the attacks are based on nothing at all.
So delphiuser, your purpose is hard to understand and you come across simply as boorish and a bit slow.
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