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Purple hearbreakers (James Webb barf alert)
New York Times ^ | January 18, 2006 | James Webb

Posted on 01/18/2006 12:41:31 PM PST by balch3

Edited on 01/18/2006 12:45:51 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

IT should come as no surprise that an arch-conservative Web site is questioning whether Representative John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has been critical of the war in Iraq, deserved the combat awards he received in Vietnam.

After all, in recent years extremist Republican operatives have inverted a longstanding principle: that our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor in political circles. This trend began with the ugly insinuations leveled at Senator John McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries and continued with the slurs against Senators Max Cleland and John Kerry, and now Mr. Murtha.

Military people past and present have good reason to wonder if the current administration truly values their service beyond its immediate effect on its battlefield of choice. The casting of suspicion and doubt about the actions of veterans who have run against President Bush or opposed his policies has been a constant theme of his career. This pattern of denigrating the service of those with whom they disagree risks cheapening the public's appreciation of what it means to serve, and in the long term may hurt the Republicans themselves.

Excerpt


TOPICS: Editorial
KEYWORDS: 109th; cutandrun; hero; iraq; murtha; murthamedals; purpleheart; webb; wot
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Webb continues to betray the trust of Ronald Reagan, who made him Navy Secretary. He's quick to jump to the defense of Murtha here. Webb is a decorated veteran of Vietnam himself--but what do we really know about the circumstances of HIS medals?
1 posted on 01/18/2006 12:41:34 PM PST by balch3
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To: balch3

This is an excerpt. Here's the link to the full article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/18/opinion/18webb.html


2 posted on 01/18/2006 12:42:57 PM PST by balch3
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To: balch3

Kind of different than this James webb writing:

"All Things Considered," Senator Kerry and the Swifties
24 August 2004





The Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth have a point in their attack on John Kerry's Vietnam service, for by basing his campaign on his wartime credentials, he invited their response. The "Swifties" are giving John Kerry a version of what the military calls a "peer evaluation" - a hard, cool look at a fellow officer that calls him to task for being self-serving. But their conduct invites its own questions, not the least of which is one of relevance.

Should a shaky decoration for gallantry disqualify one for the Presidency? Ask Lyndon Johnson, who as a Congressman convinced Douglas MacArthur to award him a Silver Star for riding as a passenger on an aircraft fired on by the Japanese.

Do erratic tactics reveal an inability to govern under pressure? Ask Jack Kennedy, whose World War II exploits as the skipper of PT-109 began when his boat sank after colliding with a Japanese warship.

Is a highborn aristocrat condemnable when he goes to go to war to fuel his political aspirations? Tell that to Teddy Roosevelt, who recklessly risked the lives of his Rough Riders at San Juan Hill, and incessantly lobbied on his own behalf to receive the Medal of Honor once he returned.

The greater worry is that their attack on Kerry's service may harm the very people the Swifties wish to protect, for their allegations have the potential to negate the service of everyone who was on the boats. If the young John Kerry were so able to manipulate the Navy's system that he unfairly collected five decorations, the system itself has no credibility, and all awards become meaningless. Indeed, one of the Swifties has had to deny the content of his own Bronze Star citation indicating that he was under enemy fire at the same time as was Kerry, in order to further their contention that Kerry's citation was false. This confusing conduct threatens to harm the public's view of those who fought in Vietnam as much as anything that John Kerry did when he came home and turned against the war.

By contrast, Kerry's leadership of Vietnam Veterans Against the War is not only fair game; it speaks to legitimate issues of loyalty, and his actions at that time are the true core of this dispute. For most veterans it was not that Kerry was against the war, but that he used his military credentials to denigrate the service of a whole generation of veterans. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War was a very small, highly radical organization. Their stories of atrocious conduct, repeated in lurid detail by Kerry before the Congress, represented not the typical experience of the American soldier, but its ugly extreme. That the articulate, urbane Kerry would validate such allegations helped to make life hell for many Vietnam veterans, for a very long time.

But against this backdrop we are measuring a sitting President who avoided service in Vietnam altogether, using family strings to gain a spot in the National Guard at a time when the Guard was an undeniable safe haven from war. And if there are a group of former Swifties available to cross every "t" and dot every "i" of John Kerry's Vietnam service, there will be no debates about whether George W. Bush deserved a Silver Star, or earned his Purple Hearts.

The Swifties have made their point, and after thirty years of bitterness John Kerry has earned the karma that they brought him. But most veterans, like most other Americans, are ready to digest this piece of information and move on.


3 posted on 01/18/2006 12:48:23 PM PST by radar101
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To: balch3
but what do we really know about the circumstances of HIS medals?

Webb was medically retired from the Marine Corps due to the injuries he received in Viet Nam. There's no question about the validity of his awards.

Having said that, he's all wet in his latest op-ed.

4 posted on 01/18/2006 12:51:38 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: radar101
Kerry brought the Swifties on himself by his constant parading around his 'Band of Brothers' and the pandering he did from the convention dias.

He made me sick and I'm convinced the Swift Boat Vetrans was all that stood between him the Presidency.

5 posted on 01/18/2006 12:52:02 PM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: Calpernia; 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub

What are these people reading my mind? LOL

Just earlier I proposed starting a Purple BrokenHearts Club Band..........


6 posted on 01/18/2006 12:52:09 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: balch3

I said before that these two moron journalists from CNS news have the political IQ of a chicken because they are throwing a life saver to the Left by moving the debate from Murtha treasonous statements about the Iraq war that have been killing the democrats on the national security issue to this meaningless issue about Murtha war record that will generate sympathy for him.


7 posted on 01/18/2006 12:52:29 PM PST by jveritas (The Axis of Defeatism: Left wing liberals, Buchananites, and third party voters.)
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To: All

Didn't Ollie North once kick Webb's ass during a Naval Academy boxing match?


8 posted on 01/18/2006 12:54:00 PM PST by rowhey
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To: balch3

James Webb is an authentic American hero, and he is exactly right here.


9 posted on 01/18/2006 12:54:41 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: balch3
James Webb is one of those guys I could never figure out.

He constantly goes back and forth.

During the Reagan years, he was hard right, after that, he flip flopped so many times, for no reason what so ever that I lost count.

I'm not sure who he backed in 2004, since he ripped the living hell out of both Bush and Kerry.

Part of me thinks he sees himself as some kind of underdog referee who has a need to be on the outside.

Either that, or after years and years, he is starting to figure out how to be media savvy (hint, bashing republicans works and gets attention, bashing dems does not).

10 posted on 01/18/2006 12:57:16 PM PST by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: balch3

I'm real tired of people operating under the assumpting that operatives are 'behind' this campaign.

It insinuates that none of us could possibly have a brain to ask if this is another Kerryesque re-do.

Which, precisely, I did, BEFORE CNS brought it up.

If the Democratic party had any integrity, questions wouldn't need to be asked.


11 posted on 01/18/2006 12:57:40 PM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom, Aunt, Sister, Friend, Wife, Daughter, Niece)
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To: balch3
… extremist Republican operatives have inverted a longstanding principle: that our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor in political circles.

This vet would rather have it read: “…our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor if the honor is deserved, not bought, stolen or just bogus”.
12 posted on 01/18/2006 12:58:03 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: balch3

Disagree with the man if you wish, but his decorations were earned the hard way.


13 posted on 01/18/2006 12:58:35 PM PST by paddles
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To: balch3

Break out the tinfoil hats...but can't you see the advantage of the Dems "breaking" this purple-heart story here on FR or on similar sites, with the intent we "talk about" it.

That's all we have to do is discuss it...we've fallen for their trap. Tthen they can slime us as the party of accusations. I don't remember anyone actually accusing him do you?


14 posted on 01/18/2006 12:59:37 PM PST by colorcountry (Currently not in the process of becoming a God!)
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To: balch3

Interesting article.


15 posted on 01/18/2006 1:01:47 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: Thorin
James Webb is an authentic American hero, and he is exactly right here.

He is a war hero, but he is wrong here.

He has made a mistake and is in error.

16 posted on 01/18/2006 1:03:08 PM PST by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: balch3
I don't think any of us who were in the military consider that it makes us immune from criticism for political remarks. That seems to be the shorthand of the left at the moment, but as usual, applies only to those who agree with them.

Murtha doesn't deserve a free ride on this and he isn't getting one. One wonders what the difference is between questioning the circumstances of his service and the cottage industry in the MSM that grew up around questioning the circumstances of Bush's.

17 posted on 01/18/2006 1:03:12 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: balch3

To me the real issue isn't whether Murtha's medals earned in Vietnam are legitimate. He served his country honorably as far as I am concerned.

The real issue is whether past service automatically insulates one from critisim for current acts? Murtha wants to raise the "war hero/ purple heart" shield whenever anyone questions his judgement or actions. Are we to believe that Murtha can say anything he wants, however outrageous, and not be subject to criticism or questioning for those statements simply because he is a war hero or was wounded!?!? By that standard, Duke Cunningham should be cleared of all charges and released immediately as he is a "war hero." But that is not the way our system works, unless of course, one is a democrat and can do no wrong or face no criticism.

While not justified in my opinion, I think Mr. Murtha opened himself up to the same treatment John Kerry received by hiding behind the "war hero/purple heart" shield rather than truly standing up and defending his statements.


18 posted on 01/18/2006 1:05:02 PM PST by FlipWilson
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To: balch3

"but what do we really know about the circumstances of HIS medals?"


Yes, we do. Don't slander a real American patriot, please. Just because he's not in step with Bushbots doesn't mean his wartime past is in question.


19 posted on 01/18/2006 1:05:12 PM PST by Blzbba (Sub sole nihil novi est)
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To: Thorin
James Webb is an authentic American hero, and he is exactly right here.

Yes he is an authentic American hero. Whether he is exactly right here is a matter of opinion, and I beleive most patriotic American conservatives are of the opinion that he is dead wrong here.

20 posted on 01/18/2006 1:07:36 PM PST by Rider on the Rain
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To: radar101

Do erratic tactics reveal an inability to govern under pressure? Ask Jack Kennedy, whose World War II exploits as the skipper of PT-109 began when his boat sank after colliding with a Japanese warship.<<

Yes, it does.

WW 3 did not happen in spite of JFK.

DK


21 posted on 01/18/2006 1:08:27 PM PST by Dark Knight
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To: Sonny M
>>>>>James Webb is one of those guys I could never figure out.

I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot.

22 posted on 01/18/2006 1:10:31 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin

Webb is a candy ass. His service in the war aside...he has made a recent career as an apologist.

Somewhere along the way, he has lost his nerve. And, he is no longer a rockribbed Reaganite.


23 posted on 01/18/2006 1:13:53 PM PST by rowhey
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To: Thorin
I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot."""

Yes, and I agree with him that the response to Murtha's statements about Iraq is troubling: Opponents dig up "dirt" about his military record. Instead of answering him on the merits, they resort to trying to slime him. and the message goes out: don't criticize Bush, or your closet will be opened, too. That's Clinton tactics.

24 posted on 01/18/2006 1:15:43 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: Thorin

"I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot."


Agreed.

Why is changing one's mind suddenly a sign of weakness? Most normal people do it all the time.


25 posted on 01/18/2006 1:16:18 PM PST by Blzbba (Sub sole nihil novi est)
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To: radar101

Webb wrote: "...The greater worry is that their attack on Kerry's service may harm the very people the Swifties wish to protect, for their allegations have the potential to negate the service of everyone who was on the boats. If the young John Kerry were so able to manipulate the Navy's system that he unfairly collected five decorations, the system itself has no credibility, and all awards become meaningless..."

No. Not everyone was out gunning for decorations as JFNK was. Most guys just wanted to do their job and go home.


26 posted on 01/18/2006 1:17:59 PM PST by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: Thorin

Thorin, I disagree.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Murtha got any space at all is because he presents himself (and is presented by others) as an unimpeachable source of combat wisdom which lends him credibility.

Because his actions and words have both direct and indirect deleterious effects on the conduct of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as such may increase both the loss of life and the quantity of blood shed by our military, it is not only right, but necessary to debunk him if indeed he is a phony.

The exact same thing was true with John Kerry, and is true now with Murtha.


27 posted on 01/18/2006 1:22:46 PM PST by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: balch3

While I believe that conservatives may overkill "swiftboating" as a tactic to discredit the guys like Murtha, I am also bothered by Mr. Webb's attempt to link "Republicans" (as opposed to a few conservative Web sites) with the questions about Murtha's Purple Hearts. Neither the MSM nor Mr. Webb would ever insinuate that the DNC was behind the George W. Bush MIA from the Air National Guard story (even though Mary Mapes gave her Democrat buddy a heads up on that story), but Mr. Webb will tar all "Republicans" with the same brush, even if the President, Mr. Cheney and the RNC Chairman all have nothing but (undeserved) praise for Murtha.


28 posted on 01/18/2006 1:25:28 PM PST by pawdoggie
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To: churchillbuff

Actually the Dems have been desperately working 24/7 to undermine the President's credibility on military issues. He immediately raised active duty pay massively, increased the VA budget 40 percent and fixed problems he inherited. They work nonstop to make sure he gets ZERO credit for those acheivements.

IRT to Murtha and the Dems...there has been no bigger travesty committed then overwhelming voting to send the military into conflict, then undermining the conflict. They are aiding the enemy and causing more US deaths.

Murtha has the typical DNC service path.. a short tour in a combat zone padding his resume, return to the US and immediately run for political office.

He Purple Heart wounds were to his face...anybody see scars?
Kerry and Murtha have 5 hearts between them with zero visible affects. All he has to do is open his record up to verify his claims.


29 posted on 01/18/2006 1:26:25 PM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: balch3
Webb has impeccable combat credentials.

Like many old men badly injured on war's sharp end he does not believe that he and others like him can morally be criticized about their wartime experiences by those who have not been there themselves. It is certainly true that attacks on Murtha's Viet Nam record by people who have not even seen war are out of order.

Myself I think Murtha is plagued by his memories. The dreams can get much worse with age. I suspect that he drinks too much. Drinking to escape the dreams is a terrible mistake.

Certainly McCain is totally personally familiar with war's desolation. Admiral Stockdale, Medal of Honor and McCain's commanding officer at the Hanoi Hilton has said that McCain was gallant under torture. If you haven't been there you have absolutely no idea of what that means.

The Swift Boat people's criticism of John Kerry is another thing entirely. The Swifties have earned the right to judge John Kerry. I am a Viet Nam boy myself, and strongly suspected Kerry was what he later proved to be. I held my peace until those men who had to serve with this proven arrogant social climbing coward had had their say.
30 posted on 01/18/2006 1:26:35 PM PST by Iris7 (Dare to be pigheaded! Stubborn! "Tolerance" is not a virtue!)
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To: rowhey
>>>>>>Webb is a candy ass.

Webb earned the reputation as being one of the best Marine combat commanders in Vietnam, and no one has done more than James Webb to rehabilitate the public image of Vietnam vets. I don't necessarily agree with him on every issue, but I am confident that he is motivated by love of country and of those who have served America, and not the petty self-promotion that motivates 99% of all politicians.

31 posted on 01/18/2006 1:29:14 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: balch3
I think I get it: Questioning Kerry's questionable "service" is bad; questioning Bush's stint in the National Guard isn't.

We know the routine.

32 posted on 01/18/2006 1:29:34 PM PST by Reactionary
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Webb is surely the real thing about Viet-Nam service. Here is his citation for the Navy Cross, since it is next to the CMH doing a Kerry on it would be more than difficult:

Webb, James H., Jr.
First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps
Co. D, 1st Bn., 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division
Date of Action: July 10, 1969

Citation:
The Navy Cross is awarded to First Lieutenant James H. Webb, Jr., United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam. On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb's platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out. Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers. Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel. Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade. Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body. Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker. By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service.

Webb seems to be mostly Buchananite in his foreign policy orientation mixed with a kind of generalized rage towards anyone who hasn't been in ground combat ordering US forces, especially Marines, into combat. He appears to genuinely loath GWB. Considering the ferocity of combat in the An Hoi/Arizona Territory that he saw I think (and this is no disparagement of a very brave man) Webb has some issues with internal demons. He is a very interesting person and the Dims who hope he will run for Senate in Va next year when Warner steps down may get something that really don't know how to handle. I can't imagine Webb being one for Senatorial courtesy and the blood in his eye is for most of the inside-the-beltway establishment irrespective of party label.
33 posted on 01/18/2006 1:30:08 PM PST by robowombat
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To: churchillbuff

I understand your point, but I think you are forgetting that Murtha keeps posing as a military hero. Moreover, whether or not it's his fault, the MSM plays that angle every time they mention him. So it becomes a public issue. You can't permit one side to raise an issue and not allow the other side to talk about it too.

If you are a politician, then you are in public life. If you make an issue of your military service, then that's open to public criticism too. That's very much in contrast to President Bush, who never made a big issue of his National Guard Service. Only his enemies did.


34 posted on 01/18/2006 1:31:27 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: balch3
"Military people past and present have good reason to wonder if the current administration truly values their service beyond its immediate effect on its battlefield of choice."

Hmmm. Kinda makes you wonder why they don't. /s

35 posted on 01/18/2006 1:35:19 PM PST by Jaxter ("Vivit Post Funera Virtus")
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To: Rider on the Rain
Yes he is an authentic American hero. Whether he is exactly right here is a matter of opinion, and I beleive most patriotic American conservatives are of the opinion that he is dead wrong here.

And that's exactly the way the discussion should be framed. Confront people directly on the strength of their arguments, not indirectly with snipy attacks on their service to this country. Even though Kerry was shameless with his "band of brothers" traveling show, the "swift boaters" were out of line - in trying to degrade Kerry's service, they were also attacking the honorable service of others.

I disagree with a previous poster that the "swift boaters" were what prevented a Kerry presidency - KERRY HIMSELF prevented a Kerry presidency. Even his old friend Fritz Hollings lamented that Kerry's positions were so nebulous that "I couldn't see anything there.."

The lameness of their political views are plenty enough to beat them - no one should have to stoop to dishonoring ANYONE's service.

36 posted on 01/18/2006 1:35:41 PM PST by ralice
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To: radar101
But against this backdrop we are measuring a sitting President who avoided service in Vietnam altogether, using family strings to gain a spot in the National Guard at a time when the Guard was an undeniable safe haven from war.

This from Webb's previous Swift Boat article, and he does the same in the recent article.

Does anyone see the hypocrisy of how liberals disparage the National Guard and all non combat military service with their constant harping on this subject (they still standing by their hoax memo story and have yet to produce credible "family strings" evidence). And yet they claim we are disparaging military service when simple questions are asked about conflicting service stories and blocked records of public officials!

My understanding is that George W. Bush signed his Form 180 in 2004.

You know, not everybody that serves in the military goes to combat, but 6140 National Guard served in Vietnam and 101 died in combat there.
37 posted on 01/18/2006 1:37:08 PM PST by \/\/ayne (Give me Liberty or give me the ACLU)
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To: rlmorel
I noted in another post that Murtha is typical of a certain class of small town politicians, more in the past than today. These are the fellows who make a long career out of their military service. He operated some sort of car was in Johnstown and volunteered to be mobilized as a reservist and field grade officer. He won election when the incumbent died a couple years later solely off of his military service and he has waved the bloody shirt of his service and wounds ever since. Guys like this used to be much more numerous in elected office. Sam Ervin was sort of that type but once he got in the Senate he shut up about his WW1 service.
38 posted on 01/18/2006 1:37:08 PM PST by robowombat
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To: Thorin
Murtha brought this on himself by questioning the ability of our troops and deeming them "not worth" of his joining.

Murtha's fault is allowing himself to be a puppet for his Democrat masters.

Read this and then see what you think. Pay particular attention to the comments by Don Bailey, fellow Democrat from Pennsylvania.

If the RATS want to make this an issue, they will be seriously hurt.

39 posted on 01/18/2006 1:41:59 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: rowhey
Yeah, some "candy ass:"

Citation: The Navy Cross is awarded to First Lieutenant James H. Webb, Jr., United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam. On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb's platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out. Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers. Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel. Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade. Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body. Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker. By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service.

40 posted on 01/18/2006 1:42:09 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin
Citation: The Navy Cross is awarded to First Lieutenant James H. Webb, Jr

Go ahead and post Murtha's awards/citations so we can debate those too.

41 posted on 01/18/2006 1:44:53 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: robowombat

I would prefer to let veterans have their own personal legacy about their wartime experiences, whatever it is to them, and never want to question them. As far as I am concerned, a vet can make up whatever stories they want to, and I am not going to question them.

In my opinion, what happens with people like Murtha and Kerry is that they use their wartime legacy to fight political battles in wartime, and I believe it is harmful to my country. If their wartime experience is their currency, and they are buying the downfall of our country with that currency, then they should be challenged on that currency.


42 posted on 01/18/2006 1:45:49 PM PST by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: Thorin

I'm not talking about what he did in 1969. His bravery then speaks for itself.

However, his citation for bravery then doesn't give him carte blanc to become some sort of apologist for the very conservatives who served with him during the Reagan years.

Yes, he has become a candy ass. And, yes, Oliver North kicked his ass in the ring.


43 posted on 01/18/2006 1:50:44 PM PST by rowhey
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To: VeniVidiVici

This is exactly what Webb described, attacks by political opponents of Murtha's. I don't see any criticism of Murtha's service by any disinterested person, nor do I see any criticism of Murtha by anyone who served with him in Vietnam.


44 posted on 01/18/2006 1:55:17 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: rowhey
>>>>>>>However, his citation for bravery then doesn't give him carte blanc to become some sort of apologist for

What he did in 1969 does give him carte blanche not to be called a "candy ass" by anyone, ever.

45 posted on 01/18/2006 1:56:33 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin
Candyass is about the last thing I would ever characterize Jim Webb as. He is one of the most truculent individuals to ever surface in 20th century Washington. Anyone who openly detested James Stockman in the first Reagan Administration has to simply not care what the various inside the beltway enimentos think.
46 posted on 01/18/2006 2:07:52 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat

Odd how that Citation is readily available and Murtha's are locked away in the vault.


47 posted on 01/18/2006 2:12:31 PM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: balch3

John Murtha has made his military service part and parcel of his credibility. His commentary on the Iraq war is relevant only because he can claim "war hero" status. It is entirely proper to examine that claim thoroughly. If it withstands the scrutiny, then he deserves the accolades. If not, then we've done the world a service by exposing a fraud.


48 posted on 01/18/2006 2:13:09 PM PST by IronJack
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To: radar101
But against this backdrop we are measuring a sitting President who avoided service in Vietnam altogether, using family strings to gain a spot in the National Guard at a time when the Guard was an undeniable safe haven from war.

Webb either does not understand or simply ignores the fact that during Vietnam, the Air National Guard, of which Bush was a member, was not necessarily the "safe haven" that the Army National Guard was at that time. Many Air Guard units were called to active duty, (officers & enlisted) as well as individual pilots being activated and assigned for duty in combat. It mattered more what types of aircraft they were certified in flying than the fact that they were "weekend warriors." And unlike the Army Guard of that era, the Air Guard was required by the Dept. of the Air Force to be at combat readiness at all time and many units, including Bush's interceptor squadron, participated in daily air patrols intercepting Soviet aircraft approaching US air space. It was an active duty job preformed by part time pilots.

49 posted on 01/18/2006 2:13:14 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Thorin

Well said!


50 posted on 01/18/2006 2:14:13 PM PST by Keyga8tor
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