Posted on 01/18/2006 12:41:31 PM PST by balch3
Edited on 01/18/2006 12:45:51 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
IT should come as no surprise that an arch-conservative Web site is questioning whether Representative John Murtha, the Pennsylvania Democrat who has been critical of the war in Iraq, deserved the combat awards he received in Vietnam.
After all, in recent years extremist Republican operatives have inverted a longstanding principle: that our combat veterans be accorded a place of honor in political circles. This trend began with the ugly insinuations leveled at Senator John McCain during the 2000 Republican primaries and continued with the slurs against Senators Max Cleland and John Kerry, and now Mr. Murtha.
Military people past and present have good reason to wonder if the current administration truly values their service beyond its immediate effect on its battlefield of choice. The casting of suspicion and doubt about the actions of veterans who have run against President Bush or opposed his policies has been a constant theme of his career. This pattern of denigrating the service of those with whom they disagree risks cheapening the public's appreciation of what it means to serve, and in the long term may hurt the Republicans themselves.
How about this soldier? Would that be enough of a disinterested party for you?
David Stockman was at OMB not James Stockman.
Webb isn't saying you can't disagree with Murtha on Iraq, which is what this soldier did. I've yet to see a credible source criticize Murtha's Vietnam record.
So what's this have to do with Murtha, Kerry, etc? Giving aid and comfort to the enemy of you country in time of war is treason. You can not claim that you're entitled to shoot off your big mouth as some have done because you're a "war hero". To do so places a guy in the same catagory as Benedict Arnold...sellout...not directly for money but in the hopes of undermining the countries war effort and the presidency enough to regain control of government.
The mind goes first.
If Teddy Roosevelt had gotten all his men slaughtered, we would be condemning him today. And he definitely wouldn't have become President.
Geezh, here we go again. My view:
-Kerry still has not proven to me that his military record is not a manipulative fraud. Reason, I put in some difficult time during a full tour in the same war and I do not believe his 9 week wonder record of 3 small scratch hearts earned in that time frame. He besmirches my memory of those who made the ultimate sacrifice with one legit purple heart awarded. Kerry has still not signed a form 180 to release ALL of his records. An added reason for this, I believe,is that he received a less than honorable discharge that Jimmy Carter many years later converted to an honorable.
-Bush signed the 180, records were released and during the '04 election he was spoken about as though he was a 2nd class citizen according to the Lefties and for having hidden from Viet Nam by being in the National Guard. I do not know any Viet Nam vet that looks down his nose at those who stayed stateside in the Guard. That was a non-starter.
-Now Mr.Murtha brings attention upon himself re his recent antics and questions arise about his record... and Mr Webb runs to his support...but leaves out a couple of interesting points. First, while Webb mentions the years later USMC letter that stated Murtha earned his awards, Webb did not mention that the letter has just a name on the bottom with no title and no one seems to be able to identify just who that guy was that signed the letter. I have NEVER seen a USMC letter that the signatory did have a fully stated title under his/her name. Mr Murtha also has not signed a 180 and I think he should. In my measured estimation,he does not carry himself like a Marine, especially a combat veteran Marine. A combat officer Marine WOULD NOT publicly call for an abandonment of Iraq and embolden an armed enemy with Marines there and in harms way. The Marine Corps motto is Semper Fedalis=Always Faithful. The Corps "corps principles"=Honor, Courage,Commitment. Given that I see little of this in the current Mr.Murtha, I want to see his 180.
I'm the one risking life and limb to refute leftist talking points on the internet as I sit on my fat butt in an office cubicle somewhere.
And yes, day after day I make this sacrifice so that a bunch of spoiled crybabies can put on a uniform and go get themselves shot at on the other side of the planet.
So where's my medal? Wheree's my parade?
I may be nothing more than a shut-in with a blogspot account, but my actions are just as honorable and courageous as the men at Iwo Jima - shouldn't I get my own commemorative drink cup or something?
He is a hero and a patriot, that is without any question or doubt.
His judgement however, over the years, has been without compass.
He seems to go off kilter to often and without direction.
I love his independence and love of country, I can't stand his constantly ever changing judgement, where he goes all over the map.
I cannot dispute your perspective. (FoxNews' Brit Hume just covered the Murtha Viet Nam records story)
Webb intentionally neglected to mention that many of the "witnesses" in the Vietnam Veterans against the War -- were not veterans, veterans of the war or in many cases not even in the military...
Many, including leaders --- made up their "military history" from whole cloth....
I disagree with Webb, that we must move on with Murtha... Murtha has used his "hero's record and two Purple Hearts" as merits to earn a lifetime career and a pension until death... I believe we taxpayers and fellow veterans are entitled to ask him to PROVE his claim and release his records to public review... He has repeatedly responded to questions about his record by say -- "I'm proud of my service", as he should be... No one is questioning his service -- I'm questioning his two Purple Hearts which he ADMITTED he didn't deserve to a fellow Congressman..
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http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/baileylttomurtha.htm
May 5, 2002
Dear Jack,
I’m writing on matters of joint concern. A number of weeks ago I was talking with someone who is a mutual acquaintance and your name came up. It was an unusually frank discussion and I considered it private. I did relate some opinions about you and shared some recollections about experiences with you in Congress. I was, to be honest, critical about how you misled me about ABSCAM where you convinced me you had voluntarily told federal agents about the offer of money to you and I learned later, after I had successfully defeated the ethics charges against you, that you had merely manipulated the system to cooperate with federal agents to avoid prosecution.
I also shared my recollection of when you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn’t earn your purple hearts (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn’t even directly related to an APC that ran over a small anti personnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart you even declined to explain.
At the time you were feeling particularly vulnerable, because it wasn’t too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for “saving your life” before the ethics committee. There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart, and that you didn’t want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam Veterans that served with us.
Given what I know about the brave men who served in the Marine Corp., I did not criticize you, but to be honest, I was shocked and disappointed in you personally. We both knew what was at issue, and we both know what happened and that you wanted to avoid the limelight. Later, we ended up having to run for the same seat. It was a good clean race and I admit I knew I couldn’t win, simply on the basis of voter turn out alone. During that time some people came to me with documents indicating you had used influence, after the fact, or had embellished your purple heart awards. I did not respond, and I said nothing. In doing so I may have betrayed my comrades in arms because I knew then what you had told me in the corner of the house - but I had told no one about that and I stood mute. But a few weeks ago my conversation was private and I was not seeking to do you any harm, though it would be ridiculous for me to infer that I have any respect for what you’ve done.
Regardless, shortly thereafter a reporter called me and I was put in a very different position. I could either deny what I said in private conversation, and thus lie, or I could fess up to the truth, or, I could take the cowards way out and stand mute. If I say something, I should either have the courage to back it up, or I shouldn’t open my mouth. Regardless it was too late, and I did not choose to lie. So I admitted to what I had said. However, I later received two calls from two different aides of yours, and later I was called a liar in the press. I am not a liar and I want an apology for the remarks you authorized that I didn’t tell the truth about our conversation. I don’t know how you got yourself awarded the purple hearts, but I know you indicated you didn’t earn them.
By the way. I’m not an ingrate. I deeply appreciate the help you gave me for the last governor’s primary. In fact, out of respect for you, when I realized that the race was going no where, I didn’t even cash the check you sent, (which I kept). Being grateful for your help, I have not sought to hurt you - but I will not betray or exploit the young men who died while fighting, with me, for this country. Never coming forward is one thing - I never have. Lying is another. Coincidentally I just settled an 11-year old law suit with Barbara Hafer where she apologized in writing for campaign defamation and admitted that federal agents (Thornburgh’s political friends) lied to her. I will not accept your falsehoods now. Enough is enough.
You clearly indicated to me in a moment of weakness, that you hadn’t deserved the purple hearts and there was no confusion on that. You may deny that all you wish - but you and I know that that conversation took place. Please apologize now. You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get - where are they? I bet they don’t exist Jack because you are the one who’s lying. Luckily there’s one easy way to settle all this. Call a press conference. Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts. Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important Jack describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago. I am absolutely certain that you won’t do that - because, though you may have manipulated some paperwork that says you were awarded the medals (for political purposes) you can’t produce the witnesses or documents to show any wounds or circumstances under which they occurred.Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated non -combat related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign - then show me the money Jack - because there should at least be evidence by affidavit, or record of the scratches, that’s what getting a purple heart requires - show me.
You may be able to take advantage of a few Washington reporters who don’t have sufficient experience to understand - but you can’t fool combat veterans of the Vietnam war by hiding behind “Unit” losses - we’re used to those stories. I have my orders describing my combat awards Jack - to back up my DD-214. Where’s your’s? And Jack - don’t ever call me a liar.
Sincerely,
Don Bailey
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Why must everything we hear of Murtha's "heroics" come from Murtha and those willing to take a politicians "word" for the facts?
Why would Murtha refuse to release the records?
A "civil servant" who has parlayed deeply revered Purple Hearts into a career, and then uses his "history" as justification to criticize the President -- should have to PROVE his claims..
Murtha's refusal to do so - leads most rational folks to suspect he's a liar and worse...
Semper Fi
See post 73.
It contains an open letter from a former PA Congressman and lawyer who DEFENDED Murtha during the ABSCAM investigation....
Bailey was a highly decorated veteran who signed his SF180 and challenged Murtha to do the same...
To date - Murtha has refused, and provided only "supporting documentation" which is not the full MILITARY RECORD... Murtha is executing Kerry's failed plan to salvage the lie.....and failing equally.
Keep an open and inquisitive mind - especially when it would be so easy for Murtha to make this all go away.....
Sign the SF180 -- like the President did...
Semper Fi
No -- I see it as justified....
The Democrats need to learn, that when you live in glass houses - you shouldn't throw stones..
Murtha can win the biggest battle of his life -- by simply signing his SF180.... President Bush did....
Semper Fi
For the full Jubilation T Cornpone treatment:
Jubilation T Cornpone–
Lyrics:
When we fought the Yankees and annihilation was near,
Who was there to lead the charge that took us safe to the rear?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Toot your own horn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, a man who knew no fear!
When we almost had ‘em but the issue still was in doubt,
Who suggested the retreat that turned it into a rout?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Tattered and torn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he kept us hidin’ out!
When it seemed like our brave boys would keep on fighting for months,
Who took pity on them and ca-pit-u-lated at once?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Unshaven and shorn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he weren’t nobody’s dunce!
Stonewall Jackson got his name by standing firm in the fray.
Who was known to all his men as good ol’ “Paper Mache?”
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; *****
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he really saved the day!
From the movie version;
History says that General Grant was pretty good with a jug,
Who went drink for drink with him and wound up under the rug?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Passed out until morn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, his whiskers in his mug!
And my favorite.
Hearing that a Northern spy had come to town for the night,
Who gained entrance to her room and lost the glorious fight?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Weary and worn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he fought all through the night!
That's fidelis. One other principle of the Corps is attention to detail.
Isn't that what you call a "distinction without a difference"? Mr. Webb has been around D.C. long enough to know what those words mean, and I don't doubt that he thinks he's exerting pressure on the RNC types to "call their dogs off", even if they never sent them.
He is still a candy ass...and he got his ass kicked by Oliver North. I'd love to see a rematch so that he can get pummeled again.
Tastes differ, I suppose. I would never call a Marine who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam a "candy ass," even if I hated his politics.
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