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Purple hearbreakers (James Webb barf alert)
New York Times ^ | January 18, 2006 | James Webb

Posted on 01/18/2006 12:41:31 PM PST by balch3

Edited on 01/18/2006 12:45:51 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

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To: robowombat
>>>>>Anyone who openly detested James Stockman in the first Reagan Administration has to simply not care what the various inside the beltway enimentos think.

You are exactly right. And, in my view, that's what we need more of, patriots willing to call it as they see it, and not interested in promoting their own petty careers and ambitions.

51 posted on 01/18/2006 2:14:54 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Dark Knight

The whole JFK story is fascinating. He was the only PT boat skipper in WWII to manage to have his boat rammed after he stopped his engines during a battle. He was on his way to a court-martial when Pappa Joe used his money and influence to not only stop the court martial, but get Kennedy a medal for losing two men. It's all part of the ghastly Kennedy Legacy of Lies and Cheating.


52 posted on 01/18/2006 2:15:39 PM PST by pabianice
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To: Dark Knight

The whole JFK story is fascinating. He was the only PT boat skipper in WWII to manage to have his boat rammed after he stopped his engines during a battle. He was on his way to a court-martial when Pappa Joe used his money and influence to not only stop the court martial, but get Kennedy a medal for losing two men. It's all part of the ghastly Kennedy Legacy of Lies and Cheating.


53 posted on 01/18/2006 2:16:15 PM PST by pabianice
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To: pabianice
The man who commanded the Japanese destroyer that sliced PT-109 in half, Tameichi Hara, amazingly survived World War Two. He went on to write a truly classic memoir entitled, prosaically enough 'Japanese Destroyer Captain'. In this book and numerous interviews he always said he was at a loss to know how PT-109 could have managed to get right were it did.
54 posted on 01/18/2006 2:20:11 PM PST by robowombat
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To: pawdoggie

I think he called them "Republican operatives."


55 posted on 01/18/2006 2:23:17 PM PST by petitfour
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To: robowombat

Was he David Stockmans' brother?


56 posted on 01/18/2006 2:25:28 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Ditto

Agreed. I was in Arizona from 63-66. The Army Guard units there would have a rumor about every 6 weeks that they were being sent. They would pack up, wait, then be told that they were not going.


57 posted on 01/18/2006 2:29:15 PM PST by radar101
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To: freema

Were you able to get righttalk at all?

It was impressive!


58 posted on 01/18/2006 2:29:34 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
No, Stockman was OMB director and the man everyone in the executive branch was bowing down to as RR had given him almost plenary power in fixing agency budgets. Webb originally had refused the offer of Director of the VA as he would not have direct access to the President in that office. He accepted SecNav because he did. Webb loathed Stockman as someone who evaded the draft by entering seminary even though he had no plans to become a clergyman and was simply exploiting a loophole for totally pragmatic personal ends.
59 posted on 01/18/2006 2:29:59 PM PST by robowombat
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To: IronJack
1988 photo when he was serving a a COL in the Marine reserves. Never seen a Marine with a double chin before.
60 posted on 01/18/2006 2:31:25 PM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: Thorin
What exactly would you call a "disinterested person"? A reporter? What motivation would a reporter have to do anything remotely like investigate the background of a Dimocrat who trashes our military and hopes that a withdrawal is not perceived as a victory? The man deserves to be tarred and feathered.

How about this soldier? Would that be enough of a disinterested party for you?

61 posted on 01/18/2006 2:38:04 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: All
Webb simply helps the left's spin.

When you have literally hundreds of blogs, organizations an political action committee's on both the left an right doing it out day after day there is bound to be individuals on both sides that go to far.
The media simply tars the entire conservative movement and the Republican Party when any one on the right steps over the line. They support this by finding at least one Republican talking head to join in the condemnation.(McCain attacking the swifties for example)
Just the opposite happens when someone on the left says something outrageous. The left totally ignores it and if pressed simply dismisses it as someone being emotional because they care so much. In the lefts house of mirrors you do not even hold the Democratic Party responsible for what the head of the party Dean says. On the other hand blogs which are one person operations out of someones home are portrayed as speaking for the entire conservative movement.

It is the variation of the old propaganda trick where someone in the middle of a controversy starts talking about all the hateful mail they receive and the profane threats on their answering machine. Implying that everyone who opposes them are nasty people, when the fact is that both sides of any controversy receive threats and curses.

Webb helps perpetuate the lefts myth of themselves as always taking the high road in political debate.
62 posted on 01/18/2006 2:40:20 PM PST by Jonah Johansen ("Coming soon to a neighborhood near you")
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To: robowombat

David Stockman was at OMB not James Stockman.


63 posted on 01/18/2006 2:45:55 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: VeniVidiVici
>>>>>>How about this soldier? Would that be enough of a disinterested party for you?

Webb isn't saying you can't disagree with Murtha on Iraq, which is what this soldier did. I've yet to see a credible source criticize Murtha's Vietnam record.

64 posted on 01/18/2006 2:48:45 PM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: balch3
I believe a war vets military service record and his political positions are separate issues in the sense that a man can serve honorably and heroically in the military at one point in his life and turn into a traitor at another point in his life. Example: Benedict Arnold served in the continental army for a number of years...wounded, decorated for bravery (I think) and became a turncoat. No one knows for sure what turned him, but he sold out.

So what's this have to do with Murtha, Kerry, etc? Giving aid and comfort to the enemy of you country in time of war is treason. You can not claim that you're entitled to shoot off your big mouth as some have done because you're a "war hero". To do so places a guy in the same catagory as Benedict Arnold...sellout...not directly for money but in the hopes of undermining the countries war effort and the presidency enough to regain control of government.

65 posted on 01/18/2006 2:56:15 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: A.A. Cunningham

The mind goes first.


66 posted on 01/18/2006 2:58:02 PM PST by robowombat
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To: radar101

If Teddy Roosevelt had gotten all his men slaughtered, we would be condemning him today. And he definitely wouldn't have become President.


67 posted on 01/18/2006 3:07:41 PM PST by Democratshavenobrains
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To: \/\/ayne



Geezh, here we go again. My view:
-Kerry still has not proven to me that his military record is not a manipulative fraud. Reason, I put in some difficult time during a full tour in the same war and I do not believe his 9 week wonder record of 3 small scratch hearts earned in that time frame. He besmirches my memory of those who made the ultimate sacrifice with one legit purple heart awarded. Kerry has still not signed a form 180 to release ALL of his records. An added reason for this, I believe,is that he received a less than honorable discharge that Jimmy Carter many years later converted to an honorable.

-Bush signed the 180, records were released and during the '04 election he was spoken about as though he was a 2nd class citizen according to the Lefties and for having hidden from Viet Nam by being in the National Guard. I do not know any Viet Nam vet that looks down his nose at those who stayed stateside in the Guard. That was a non-starter.

-Now Mr.Murtha brings attention upon himself re his recent antics and questions arise about his record... and Mr Webb runs to his support...but leaves out a couple of interesting points. First, while Webb mentions the years later USMC letter that stated Murtha earned his awards, Webb did not mention that the letter has just a name on the bottom with no title and no one seems to be able to identify just who that guy was that signed the letter. I have NEVER seen a USMC letter that the signatory did have a fully stated title under his/her name. Mr Murtha also has not signed a 180 and I think he should. In my measured estimation,he does not carry himself like a Marine, especially a combat veteran Marine. A combat officer Marine WOULD NOT publicly call for an abandonment of Iraq and embolden an armed enemy with Marines there and in harms way. The Marine Corps motto is Semper Fedalis=Always Faithful. The Corps "corps principles"=Honor, Courage,Commitment. Given that I see little of this in the current Mr.Murtha, I want to see his 180.


68 posted on 01/18/2006 3:09:00 PM PST by AlphaOneAlpha
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To: balch3
Let's put things in perspective here, folks.

I'm the one risking life and limb to refute leftist talking points on the internet as I sit on my fat butt in an office cubicle somewhere.

And yes, day after day I make this sacrifice so that a bunch of spoiled crybabies can put on a uniform and go get themselves shot at on the other side of the planet.

So where's my medal? Wheree's my parade?

I may be nothing more than a shut-in with a blogspot account, but my actions are just as honorable and courageous as the men at Iwo Jima - shouldn't I get my own commemorative drink cup or something?

69 posted on 01/18/2006 3:19:32 PM PST by skeptical_con
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To: Thorin
I think Webb is a rare commodity: a genuine American patriot.

He is a hero and a patriot, that is without any question or doubt.

His judgement however, over the years, has been without compass.

He seems to go off kilter to often and without direction.

I love his independence and love of country, I can't stand his constantly ever changing judgement, where he goes all over the map.

70 posted on 01/18/2006 3:19:35 PM PST by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: AlphaOneAlpha
'A combat officer Marine WOULD NOT publicly call for an abandonment of Iraq and embolden an armed enemy with Marines there and in harms way.'

This seems to be the worst aspect of the current 'run for the exits' strategists. Either for reasons of personal loathing of the president or insatiable desire for political power they advocate the most obvious scenario for making any bad scene worse. These folks ought be called the 'Jubilation T Cornpone faction.' They would turn a very likely success into a rout and provide the greatest boost to the morale of the terrorists possible. What would the effect of an obvious defeat for the US in Iraq, a clear scuttle as in Somalia? Proof that the US is defeatable and like coyotes or dingos circling their prey the vermin pack would immediately close in to attack Americans and American interests everywhere around the world including in the US.
71 posted on 01/18/2006 3:25:45 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat

I cannot dispute your perspective. (FoxNews' Brit Hume just covered the Murtha Viet Nam records story)


72 posted on 01/18/2006 3:33:51 PM PST by AlphaOneAlpha
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To: radar101
".......digest this piece of information and move on."

Webb intentionally neglected to mention that many of the "witnesses" in the Vietnam Veterans against the War -- were not veterans, veterans of the war or in many cases not even in the military...

Many, including leaders --- made up their "military history" from whole cloth....

I disagree with Webb, that we must move on with Murtha... Murtha has used his "hero's record and two Purple Hearts" as merits to earn a lifetime career and a pension until death... I believe we taxpayers and fellow veterans are entitled to ask him to PROVE his claim and release his records to public review... He has repeatedly responded to questions about his record by say -- "I'm proud of my service", as he should be... No one is questioning his service -- I'm questioning his two Purple Hearts which he ADMITTED he didn't deserve to a fellow Congressman..

--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/baileylttomurtha.htm
May 5, 2002

Dear Jack,

I’m writing on matters of joint concern. A number of weeks ago I was talking with someone who is a mutual acquaintance and your name came up. It was an unusually frank discussion and I considered it private. I did relate some opinions about you and shared some recollections about experiences with you in Congress. I was, to be honest, critical about how you misled me about ABSCAM where you convinced me you had voluntarily told federal agents about the offer of money to you and I learned later, after I had successfully defeated the ethics charges against you, that you had merely manipulated the system to cooperate with federal agents to avoid prosecution.

I also shared my recollection of when you admitted, back in our corner, that you didn’t earn your purple hearts (you indicated you had small scratch on your cheek that wasn’t even directly related to an APC that ran over a small anti personnel mine that was behind you). The other purple heart you even declined to explain.

At the time you were feeling particularly vulnerable, because it wasn’t too long after you had called me crying and sobbing, thanking me for “saving your life” before the ethics committee. There was no doubt in my mind that you were expressing to me that you did not believe you did anything sufficient to earn the purple heart, and that you didn’t want to be active in my efforts to laud Vietnam Veterans that served with us.

Given what I know about the brave men who served in the Marine Corp., I did not criticize you, but to be honest, I was shocked and disappointed in you personally. We both knew what was at issue, and we both know what happened and that you wanted to avoid the limelight. Later, we ended up having to run for the same seat. It was a good clean race and I admit I knew I couldn’t win, simply on the basis of voter turn out alone. During that time some people came to me with documents indicating you had used influence, after the fact, or had embellished your purple heart awards. I did not respond, and I said nothing. In doing so I may have betrayed my comrades in arms because I knew then what you had told me in the corner of the house - but I had told no one about that and I stood mute. But a few weeks ago my conversation was private and I was not seeking to do you any harm, though it would be ridiculous for me to infer that I have any respect for what you’ve done.

Regardless, shortly thereafter a reporter called me and I was put in a very different position. I could either deny what I said in private conversation, and thus lie, or I could fess up to the truth, or, I could take the cowards way out and stand mute. If I say something, I should either have the courage to back it up, or I shouldn’t open my mouth. Regardless it was too late, and I did not choose to lie. So I admitted to what I had said. However, I later received two calls from two different aides of yours, and later I was called a liar in the press. I am not a liar and I want an apology for the remarks you authorized that I didn’t tell the truth about our conversation. I don’t know how you got yourself awarded the purple hearts, but I know you indicated you didn’t earn them.

By the way. I’m not an ingrate. I deeply appreciate the help you gave me for the last governor’s primary. In fact, out of respect for you, when I realized that the race was going no where, I didn’t even cash the check you sent, (which I kept). Being grateful for your help, I have not sought to hurt you - but I will not betray or exploit the young men who died while fighting, with me, for this country. Never coming forward is one thing - I never have. Lying is another. Coincidentally I just settled an 11-year old law suit with Barbara Hafer where she apologized in writing for campaign defamation and admitted that federal agents (Thornburgh’s political friends) lied to her. I will not accept your falsehoods now. Enough is enough.

You clearly indicated to me in a moment of weakness, that you hadn’t deserved the purple hearts and there was no confusion on that. You may deny that all you wish - but you and I know that that conversation took place. Please apologize now. You may fool a few reporters into believing that merely because you got some perfunctory paperwork made out by a friend, that that means you earned the purple hearts. But even if you were awarded the medals later, there should be affidavits from witnesses. These things should be easy to get - where are they? I bet they don’t exist Jack because you are the one who’s lying. Luckily there’s one easy way to settle all this. Call a press conference. Explain where you were and what you were doing when you got the purple hearts. Explain who was with you and treated your wounds, but most important Jack describe your wounds or the lack thereof, as you did for me, years ago. I am absolutely certain that you won’t do that - because, though you may have manipulated some paperwork that says you were awarded the medals (for political purposes) you can’t produce the witnesses or documents to show any wounds or circumstances under which they occurred.Unless the Marine Corps gives out medals for unsubstantiated non -combat related telltale scratches, procured for use in political campaign - then show me the money Jack - because there should at least be evidence by affidavit, or record of the scratches, that’s what getting a purple heart requires - show me.

You may be able to take advantage of a few Washington reporters who don’t have sufficient experience to understand - but you can’t fool combat veterans of the Vietnam war by hiding behind “Unit” losses - we’re used to those stories. I have my orders describing my combat awards Jack - to back up my DD-214. Where’s your’s? And Jack - don’t ever call me a liar.

Sincerely,

Don Bailey

----------------------------------------------------------

Why must everything we hear of Murtha's "heroics" come from Murtha and those willing to take a politicians "word" for the facts?
Why would Murtha refuse to release the records?

A "civil servant" who has parlayed deeply revered Purple Hearts into a career, and then uses his "history" as justification to criticize the President -- should have to PROVE his claims..

Murtha's refusal to do so - leads most rational folks to suspect he's a liar and worse...

Semper Fi

73 posted on 01/18/2006 4:03:51 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Thorin
"...I've yet to see a credible source criticize Murtha's Vietnam record."

See post 73.

It contains an open letter from a former PA Congressman and lawyer who DEFENDED Murtha during the ABSCAM investigation....

Bailey was a highly decorated veteran who signed his SF180 and challenged Murtha to do the same...
To date - Murtha has refused, and provided only "supporting documentation" which is not the full MILITARY RECORD... Murtha is executing Kerry's failed plan to salvage the lie.....and failing equally.

Keep an open and inquisitive mind - especially when it would be so easy for Murtha to make this all go away.....

Sign the SF180 -- like the President did...

Semper Fi

74 posted on 01/18/2006 4:11:00 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: churchillbuff
" That's Clinton tactics."

No -- I see it as justified....

The Democrats need to learn, that when you live in glass houses - you shouldn't throw stones..

Murtha can win the biggest battle of his life -- by simply signing his SF180.... President Bush did....

Semper Fi

75 posted on 01/18/2006 4:13:42 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: AlphaOneAlpha

For the full Jubilation T Cornpone treatment:

Jubilation T Cornpone–

Lyrics:
When we fought the Yankees and annihilation was near,
Who was there to lead the charge that took us safe to the rear?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Toot your own horn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, a man who knew no fear!

When we almost had ‘em but the issue still was in doubt,
Who suggested the retreat that turned it into a rout?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Tattered and torn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he kept us hidin’ out!

When it seemed like our brave boys would keep on fighting for months,
Who took pity on them and ca-pit-u-lated at once?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Unshaven and shorn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he weren’t nobody’s dunce!

Stonewall Jackson got his name by standing firm in the fray.
Who was known to all his men as good ol’ “Paper Mache?”
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; *****
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he really saved the day!

From the movie version;

History says that General Grant was pretty good with a jug,
Who went drink for drink with him and wound up under the rug?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Passed out until morn - pone.
Jubilation T. Cornpone, his whiskers in his mug!

And my favorite.

Hearing that a Northern spy had come to town for the night,
Who gained entrance to her room and lost the glorious fight?
Why it was Jubilation T. Cornpone; Old “Weary and worn - pone.”
Jubilation T. Cornpone, he fought all through the night!


76 posted on 01/18/2006 5:01:39 PM PST by robowombat
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To: AlphaOneAlpha
Fedalis

That's fidelis. One other principle of the Corps is attention to detail.

77 posted on 01/18/2006 7:37:56 PM PST by A.A. Cunningham
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To: petitfour
I think he called them "Republican operatives.

Isn't that what you call a "distinction without a difference"? Mr. Webb has been around D.C. long enough to know what those words mean, and I don't doubt that he thinks he's exerting pressure on the RNC types to "call their dogs off", even if they never sent them.

78 posted on 01/18/2006 10:17:26 PM PST by pawdoggie
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To: Thorin

He is still a candy ass...and he got his ass kicked by Oliver North. I'd love to see a rematch so that he can get pummeled again.


79 posted on 01/19/2006 8:33:51 AM PST by rowhey
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To: rowhey
>>>>>>He is still a candy ass...

Tastes differ, I suppose. I would never call a Marine who won the Navy Cross in Vietnam a "candy ass," even if I hated his politics.

80 posted on 01/19/2006 9:37:15 AM PST by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: balch3
...to paraphrase a saying; only a fool continues to maintain the same opinion in light of emerging fact.

I'm trusting that Jim Webb is thus informed.

And My Friend, unless you pack better gear than Mr. Webb, you best not take the cheap shot of the circumstances of his awards. Simply focus on his record of achievement. Past is prologue and such.

To do otherwise is simply a no-ticket entry to the party via the back-door.

As for one Poster's fixation on Ollie, I'll just say that while Ollie was an outstanding Platoon Leader, circumstances were such that Mr. Webb was an equally good Company Commander, Assistant Secretary, Cabinet Member, lawyer and author.
81 posted on 02/09/2006 2:44:24 AM PST by Gunny P (Gunny P)
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To: Blzbba
Yes, we do. Don't slander a real American patriot, please. Just because he's not in step with Bushbots doesn't mean his wartime past is in question.

Trying to convince Bushbots is a waste of time here...you have to agree with neocons 100 percent of the time or you're, in their opinion, one of the RATS. Despite the fact that George 43 has admitted that he only met the absolute minimum qualification of his NAG commitment in his last two years for "good years"; he is somehow a hero while authentic military heroes like John McCain, James Webb, Bob Kerrey, and, yes, even John Murtha are traitorous cowards.
Of course the criticism is fueled mainly by the shrill neocons who never spent one second in a uniform of their country: i.e. Rush Limpbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, et al.

82 posted on 02/09/2006 9:51:54 AM PST by meandog (For lurking Moo-slew-ems: Sahada: "That which Islam calls "Allah" is Satan and Mohammad is his pig!)
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To: meandog

You smear the President and some of our leading conservative commentators with that post. Are you sure you're on the right forum?


83 posted on 02/09/2006 1:15:56 PM PST by balch3
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To: balch3
You smear the President and some of our leading conservative commentators with that post. Are you sure you're on the right forum?

What smear? If truth is a smear, then I'm guilty...Bush, himself, reported that he quit his Texas ANG group and transfered to Alabama where he did not fly and met only the minimum requirements (60 points/year) so he could aid an politician running in a Senate race. Neither Hannity, Limbaugh or Savage were in the service...now, if you have factual evidence otherwise, I would be glad to hear it. \

84 posted on 02/10/2006 7:05:52 AM PST by meandog (For lurking Moo-slew-ems: Sahada: "That which Islam calls "Allah" is Satan and Mohammad is his pig!)
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To: balch3

LOL, their still sore over losing Kerry for their CIC, and losing Saddam and Sons, who were entirely innocent, minding their own business, and promised to never, ever, produce or use WMD again!


85 posted on 02/10/2006 7:14:39 AM PST by roses of sharon ("I would rather men ask why I have no statue, than why I have one". ) (Cato the Elder)
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To: meandog

Hear hear.


86 posted on 08/15/2006 7:03:07 AM PDT by ketelone
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