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Spielberg's fictions
Jerusalem Post ^ | Jan. 22, 2006 | Alan Dershowitz

Posted on 01/22/2006 4:41:27 PM PST by Alouette

Steven Spielberg said that he made Munich to promote a dialogue about the nature of terrorism and the efficacy of counterterrorism. His screenwriter, Tony Kushner, said that he did not feel compelled to portray Israel's retaliation against the Munich killers accurately because "an audience has the resources to check" what is real and what is fiction.

Well, here's a reality check.

• Did Israel's anti-terrorism efforts following Munich create a "cycle of violence"?

The film portrays a squad of Mossad agents, led by a fictional character named Avner Kauffman, tracking down and killing the Black September terrorists who perpetrated the massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics. As the movie progresses Avner becomes increasingly disillusioned with his mission. His chief concern is that counterterrorism only incites more terrorism, which in turn provokes reprisals.

The trouble with this "cycle of violence" perspective is that it confuses cause and effect. The period immediately preceding Munich was plagued by airline terrorism, including the blowing up of a Swiss airliner, killing all 47 passengers and crew, and dozens of deadly hijackings. Palestinian hijackings were successful precisely because even when the hijackers were captured they were quickly released as soon as Palestinian terrorists hijacked another airplane.

This long pattern of high-publicity-low-risk hijackings is what encouraged Black September to up the ante by infiltrating the Olympic Village in Munich.

As I wrote in my book Why Terrorism Works: "Based on the reaction to international terrorism over the previous four years, the terrorists planning the Munich operation could expect to succeed in attracting the world's attention and be relatively certain that if any of the terrorists were captured, they would not be held for long."

In short: It is the success of terrorism, and not attempts to combat it, that invites its repetition. The movie ends with the image of the World Trade Center projected on the screen. Several reviewers and commentators have interpreted this image as insinuating that Israel's policy of targeting terrorists for assassination caused, or at least contributed to, the attack on 9/11. Such innuendo is patent nonsense.

Osama bin Laden cares not a whit about Palestinian terrorists or Israeli counterterrorism measures. His target is the United States, Christianity, capitalism and Western values. He selected the World Trade Center because it symbolized American power.

Neither Spielberg nor Kushner had the courage to overtly link counterterrorism efforts to 9/11, because such a claim is so easily refuted by the facts. Instead they resorted to the kind of symbolism that has a profound impact on the emotions of viewers without an opportunity for logical response.

• Why didn't Israel let Germany and other European countries arrest and extradite the terrorists?

Near the end of the movie Avner asks his Mossad handler why Israel killed the Black September terrorists instead of arresting them. The answer, never given in the film, is that the arrest method had failed. Arrested terrorists were never tried and imprisoned for long.

Between 1968 and 1975, 204 terrorists were arrested outside the Middle East. By the close of 1975 only three were still in prison. George Habash, leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (a Marxist terrorist group responsible for some of the Palestinians' most brutal mass killing), noted that Europe's refusal to imprison terrorists meant that when it came to plotting hijackings and bombing, "success [was] 100-percent assured."

Even when Israel managed to arrest and imprison hijackers, this only encouraged further hijackings designed to release the imprisoned terrorists held by Israel. Indeed the best evidence of why the arrest method advocated by Munich would not work was provided by Black September's own demands in Munich - that Israel free over 200 imprisoned terrorists who had been arrested.

Israel understood that releasing terrorists would encourage future terrorism. Without European cooperation Israel stood little chance of curbing international terrorism. Sure enough, Germany released the surviving Black September terrorists less than two months after Munich, when Palestinian terrorists "hijacked" a Lufthansa plane. (According to the senior aide to Germany's interior minister, it is "probably true" that the "hijacking" was orchestrated as part of a German-Palestinian scheme to free the terrorists.)

It was the German decision to free these killers to kill again that strengthened Golda Meir's resolve to take the steps necessary to protect her citizens; but you would not know that from watching Munich.

Since these terrorists killed by Israeli agents were surely combatants in an ongoing terrorist war, it was as lawful for Israel to target them as it is for the United States today to target Osama bin Laden or Ayman Zawahiri.

SPIELBERG'S MOVIE is concerned with proper homes. A PLO militant delivers a lecture on his people's connection to all of Palestine, with no room for a Jewish state of any size. Avner, who is the movie's moral compass, seems ultimately to adopt Ali's view. By the end of the movie he, too, renounces Israel as his home.

Presumably the filmmakers believe that a Jew's rightful place is Brooklyn, where Avner moves, and not Israel. This is consistent with Kusher's one-sided political view that he has "a problem" with Israel's very existence, and that it "would have been better if it never happened."

The millions of Jews who escaped Muslim oppression in the 1950s and Soviet oppression in the 1970s and 80s would certainly disagree. So would the thousands of Israeli civilians whose lives were saved by Israel's proactive steps against terrorism disagree with the major premise of Munich, namely, that counterterrorism is always counterproductive.

The writer is a professor of law at Harvard. His latest book is The Case for Peace: How the Arab-Israeli Conflict Can Be Resolved.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alandershowitz; dershowitz; hollywood; munich; spielberg; stevenspielberg; terrorists

1 posted on 01/22/2006 4:41:27 PM PST by Alouette
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FRmail me to be added or removed from this Judaic/pro-Israel/Russian Jewry ping list.

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2 posted on 01/22/2006 4:41:48 PM PST by Alouette (Learned Mother of Zion)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: William Creel

A lot of people here hate Dershowitz, but he is a liberal who has been mugged.


4 posted on 01/22/2006 4:44:00 PM PST by Alouette (Learned Mother of Zion)
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To: William Creel

Kushner is also a high profile gay activist.


5 posted on 01/22/2006 4:44:54 PM PST by jimbo123
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To: Alouette

TV Headsup for the forum; documentary on Munich tonight (Sunday) on
Discovery Channel at 10PM Eastern:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1562354/posts


6 posted on 01/22/2006 4:45:12 PM PST by VOA
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To: Alouette
Dershowitz vs. Spielberg. Delicious.

I thought the "pro-Israel" Dershowitz had finally shown his true colors in his book The Case for Peace, just as Spielberg has with Munich.

7 posted on 01/22/2006 4:45:28 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Shallach 'et `ammi veya`avduni!)
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To: Alouette

"Munich" most strongly suggests that Spielberg has a progessive brain disorder.


8 posted on 01/22/2006 4:47:11 PM PST by pabianice
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To: Alouette

Dershowitz talks pro-Israel, but he supports with donations, influence, and votes the anti-Israel leftwing Democrats. I guess it helps that he at least talks pro-Israel...?


9 posted on 01/22/2006 4:48:51 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Alouette

Related threads, about Spielberg's reaction to critics:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1562942/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1562935/posts


10 posted on 01/22/2006 4:50:22 PM PST by LibFreeOrDie (L'Chaim!)
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To: Alouette
some good points - Spielberg can squeal all he wants - I'm still boycotting his make believe!
11 posted on 01/22/2006 4:57:56 PM PST by prfix
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To: Alouette
Better question:


Did Palestine's murderous efforts following Munich create a "cycle of violence"?
12 posted on 01/22/2006 4:59:00 PM PST by RedMonqey (People who don't who stand for something, will fall for anything.)
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To: LibFreeOrDie
Spielberg is an unacknowledged terrorist who explodes ideas into people's brains.

Please read chapter 9

13 posted on 01/22/2006 5:00:53 PM PST by katya8
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To: katya8

I say we Dixie Chick Spielberg.. I mean it...no more money from me for ANY Spielberg movie. I will not buy anything that will profit him. Not that it's going to make a lick of difference right now, but down the line he may have a harder time getting a movie made.


14 posted on 01/22/2006 5:03:53 PM PST by Hildy (The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth)
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To: Alouette; Mia T
A lot of people here hate Dershowitz, but he is a liberal who has been mugged.
15 posted on 01/22/2006 5:24:23 PM PST by jla
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To: Alouette

> Steven Spielberg said that he made Munich to promote a dialogue ...

But only AFTER he was caught out.

One never hears propagandists make this sorry excuse
before their frauds are exposed.


16 posted on 01/22/2006 5:33:27 PM PST by Boundless
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To: Alouette

I've been increasingly noticing Dershowitz has a pair.


17 posted on 01/22/2006 5:44:26 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (Democrats value the privacy of terrorists higher than the lives of Americans.)
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To: Alouette
We saw Munich the other night. I found it depressing due to its blantant liberal cant re the Palis. The film is also confusing as though they had never read the book upon which it should have been more fairly based, George Jonas' "Vengeance." The book moves along with a good relationship to time and people invoved, but the film fails in those two respects. The final scenes of the Munich slaughter interpersed with a sweaty love scene was truly a stupid Speilkberg ploy that does not work.

The book was also clear as to Israel's motives and the tactics of direct vengeance had no concerns about the terrorist Palis, nor sympathy for their sponsors back in Paliland. I found it amazing, as did the author George Jonas, that neither Speilberg nor Kushner ever contacted Jonas for advice re the script of the film. In fact, they went out of their way to avoid Jonas and the resulting movie is flawed and tilted left.

The book does paint the Mossad leaders of the group as pretty awful people. The years of dangerous service the avengers gave was supposedly a salaried service, but when they went to the bank accounts to collect their salaries, the safety deposit boxes were empty. The film did not mention any of this. The Mossad had emptied them. I gave Munich a strong thumbs-down!

18 posted on 01/22/2006 5:58:00 PM PST by Paulus Invictus
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To: Alouette
His screenwriter, Tony Kushner, said that he did not feel compelled to portray Israel's retaliation against the Munich killers accurately because "an audience has the resources to check" what is real and what is fiction.

Does anyone have a link to the actual quote? Google only turns up this article.

19 posted on 01/22/2006 6:11:15 PM PST by inquest (If you favor any legal status for illegal aliens, then do not claim to be in favor of secure borders)
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To: Alouette

I remember Mr. Spielberg using the same line of reasoning when making Schindlers list. Near the end of the movie Schindler saves the Jews by appealing to the Nazi-firing-squad goons sense of humanity. In the Book, which is historically accurate, the Nazis left Schindler's Jews alone because Herr Schindler had wisely armed them all to the friggin' teeth. That did not support Mr. Spielbergs point of view concerning the use of firearms as a deterrent to violence, so he changed it. Unicorns, rainbows, nice words, blah, blah, blah.


20 posted on 01/22/2006 6:27:22 PM PST by Merci Beaubluuuhh (Liberalism is just perpetual adolescence with a side of arrogance)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking the keyword Israel.

---------------------------

21 posted on 01/22/2006 6:41:52 PM PST by SJackson (Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy. B. Franklin)
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To: jla
bump

My New York Times Review of Munich
CLOSE ENCOUNTER OF THE WORST KIND
(please FReep)



22 posted on 01/22/2006 7:17:16 PM PST by Mia T (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations (The acronym is the message.))
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To: Alouette
Alan Dershowbiz vs Spielberg... Does it get any better..
Well yes.. Deshowbiz vs Chomsky couldn't hurt..
23 posted on 01/22/2006 8:16:24 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: jimbo123

Kushner is ALSO the most overrated playwright of all time.
I found Angels in America full of the most predictable cheap shots and conceits (the Salt Lake City Mormon married man turns out to be a closet gay.etc. etc. )
His writing is always smudged with the pawprints of amateurism and political wishful thinking.
And Spielberg, as talented as he is, cannot ever rid himself of some kind of artistic schizophrenia. For all its believable brutality, Schindler's List winds up going for capital S Sentiment, with Schindler crying that he "could have saved more",etc. etc. Everything that is good in his movies keeps getting undermined by this sentimentality, which has always been a large component of his signature style. Yesterday , the NY Daily News had a brief article quoting several real life Israeli Mossad agents and their reaction to MUNICH. Basically, they felt it had NOTHING to do with reality, and that Mossad agents like those portrayed in the film were so amateurish they would have gotten caught immediately. Obviously the film has an agenda and a message of its own, and that is what always strangles truth and artistic integrity in the womb.


24 posted on 01/22/2006 8:33:43 PM PST by willyboyishere (""The unlived life is not worth examining" ---willyboyishere)
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To: jimbo123

Kushner is ALSO the most overrated playwright of all time.
I found Angels in America full of the most predictable cheap shots and conceits (the Salt Lake City Mormon married man turns out to be a closet gay.etc. etc. )
His writing is always smudged with the pawprints of amateurism and political wishful thinking.
And Spielberg, as talented as he is, cannot ever rid himself of some kind of artistic schizophrenia. For all its believable brutality, Schindler's List winds up going for capital S Sentiment, with Schindler crying that he "could have saved more",etc. etc. Everything that is good in his movies keeps getting undermined by this sentimentality, which has always been a large component of his signature style. Yesterday , the NY Daily News had a brief article quoting several real life Israeli Mossad agents and their reaction to MUNICH. Basically, they felt it had NOTHING to do with reality, and that Mossad agents like those portrayed in the film were so amateurish they would have gotten caught immediately. Obviously the film has an agenda and a message of its own, and that is what always strangles truth and artistic integrity in the womb.


25 posted on 01/22/2006 8:36:51 PM PST by willyboyishere (""The unlived life is not worth examining" ---willyboyishere)
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To: Alouette

CLOSE ENCOUNTER OF THE WORST KIND

January 9, 2006
Reviewer: miat22 (Mia T)

... to borrow a phrase, perversely, from a Spielberg flick about benign intelligence.

Munich -- Spielberg fantasy wrapped in sober documentary -- with its false premises, phony pieties and outright lies, is a verisimilitudinous contrivance that is pernicious, especially now, especially here, especially if we understand Spielberg's real motivation.

Truth matters not at all to Spielberg, and courage matters even less. To advance his fallacious argument, he has Golda Meir speak words she never said, never would have said and, obviously, cannot now disavow. Posthumous misappropriation is a preferred tactic of the abject coward.

Munich is less about Meir avenging the Munich massacre than it is about Bush waging the War on Terror. The historical (Munich) allusion is key to understanding Spielberg.

The core of his anti-war argument:
By fighting back, we become our enemy. Ironically, with Munich, the same can now be said of Spielberg.

Is Spielberg humanizing the terrorist really any different from Riefenstahl humanizing Hitler? If anything, Spielberg is more contemptible. Whereas Riefenstahl symbolizes the naïve actress and director who is induced to deal with devils, Spielberg is self-actuated and aware.

Hollywood IS DreamWorks, fantastical and unthinking and solipsistic by definition.

To mitigate its danger, people capable of critical thinking must take on Hollywood... and must do so in Hollywood venues.

The printed word, sad to say, no longer carries the day.



My New York Times Review of Munich
Was this review helpful to you?
VOTE
HERE

COPYRIGHT MIA T 2006

26 posted on 01/23/2006 3:12:06 AM PST by Mia T (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations (The acronym is the message.))
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To: Alouette
The movie ends with the image of the World Trade Center projected on the screen...

You have GOT to be kidding me???!!!

27 posted on 01/23/2006 6:48:05 AM PST by veronica (....."send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do.")
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To: Alouette
It is the success of terrorism, and not attempts to combat it, that invites its repetition.

Amen. I mean, "Allah akbar!!!"

28 posted on 01/23/2006 7:08:20 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: veronica
You have GOT to be kidding me???!!!

Avner and Ephraim are walking outdoors with the NY skyline in the background while Ephraim tries to convince Avner to return to Israel.

29 posted on 01/23/2006 7:13:07 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Who knew Spielberg was such an idiot. Sheesh...


30 posted on 01/23/2006 7:26:13 AM PST by veronica (....."send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do.")
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To: veronica
Who knew Spielberg was such an idiot. Sheesh...

I had intended to NOT see Munich, but my wife wanted to, so...

Anyway, it just so happens that I am in the exact middle of reading "Vengeance," the book upon which Munich is loosely based. One of the things that jumped out at me is that Avner and company were trained to use tiny little Berretta .22 semi-autos like this:

Image hosting by TinyPic

According to "Vengeance," this is the official assassination weapon of the Mossad (much like the CIA uses the Ruger MK series), and the only firearm the team used.

In the first assissination, Spielberg has them using the much larger 9mm Berretta 92FS:

Image hosting by TinyPic

To top it off, when Karl, the cleanup man, comes to remove any evidence immediately after the hit, he is shown picking up spent rimfire cartridges from the floor. Spielberg can't even make up his mind if they were using a 9mm or a .22!

I find this particularly ridiculous since Spielberg went to such great lengths to digitally remove firearms from the hands of agents and replace them with walkie-talkies upon the anniversary re-release of E.T.

He removed guns entirely from E.T., but was not content with little guns in "Munich" and inaccurately replaced them with big guns.

What a butthead.

31 posted on 01/23/2006 8:12:36 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: Alouette

well said article.


32 posted on 01/23/2006 10:28:29 AM PST by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Alouette
Why doesn't Spielberg simply change the title to "Can't We All Just Get Along" and let it go at that?

At least it would be more honest.

33 posted on 01/23/2006 11:19:58 AM PST by Publius6961 (The IQ of California voters is about 420........... .............cumulatively)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I find this particularly ridiculous since Spielberg went to such great lengths to digitally remove firearms from the hands of agents and replace them with walkie-talkies upon the anniversary re-release of E.T.

He also removed any reference to the cache of black market firearms and explosives bought in the black market by Oskar Schlindler in the event his Jews had to fight for their lives from Shcinlers list.

From more reliable sources, the first assassination was cased by a team of about a dozen, with two Mossad agents flown in for a day for the killing, using silenced .22s.

There's a recently released book by Aaron Klein, Striking Back, which presents a much more accurate picture than Spielberg.

34 posted on 01/23/2006 11:36:05 AM PST by SJackson (Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy. B. Franklin)
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To: SJackson
From more reliable sources, the first assassination was cased by a team of about a dozen, with two Mossad agents flown in for a day for the killing, using silenced .22s.

I am reading "Vengeance" by George Jonas, the book that "Munich" is ostensibly based upon.

This is a serious question: isn't that a reliable source?

35 posted on 01/23/2006 11:39:15 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
From everything I've read, no. As I understand it, his primary Mossad "source" turned out to be an El Al security guard, discovered after the publication. A couple links to reviews of the Klein book, which appears to be far better researched. Klein is ex-Israeli intelligence, now Time's military affairs correspondent in the region. Timing is coincidental, though the book release was pushed up due to the movie. I've heard Klein interviewed several times, and his conclusions are radically different. From the missions objective, which was killing terrorists who presented future threats, not Munich participants, to the purported misgivings of the participants, which he contends is a complete fabrication.

Aaron Klein Discusses 'Striking Back,' A Look At The Munich Killings, Aftermath

'Munich' distorts history-Michael Medved

New Book Takes Issue With Spielberg's 'Munich'

Rival tome snipes at 'Munich' 'Striking Back' says 'Vengeance' botches history

Coming down firmly on both sides

It was an entertaining movie, a bit slow, but appears not to be historical. Other than the actual Olympics coverage, which Klein says was essentially as accurate as you'd expect in a movie.

BTW, I hadn't noticed the weapon in the first killing, but the 92 hadn't been released till the mid 70s, though I suppose the Mossad could have acquired a prototype if they'd wanted.

36 posted on 01/23/2006 12:03:46 PM PST by SJackson (Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy. B. Franklin)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I'm not a big fan of Wikipedia, but their short bio of Yuval Aviv seems to be accurate. He was Jonas's source for Vengence, and said to be the model for the Avner character who most Israeli sources contend is purely fictional.
37 posted on 01/23/2006 12:09:25 PM PST by SJackson (Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants to see us happy. B. Franklin)
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To: SJackson
BTW, I hadn't noticed the weapon in the first killing, but the 92 hadn't been released till the mid 70s

I was just guessing that's what they were holding, but it was DEFINITELY not a .22. The muzzle was at least 9mm.

38 posted on 01/23/2006 12:21:17 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: SJackson

Thanks for all the info. After I finish Vengeance I may pick it up. It's gotten me interested.


39 posted on 01/23/2006 12:22:00 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam Factoid:After forcing young girls to watch his men execute their fathers, Muhammad raped them.)
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To: Hildy

If I boycotted everything I disagree with I'd hardly have anything at all to see or watch.


40 posted on 01/26/2006 9:47:52 AM PST by Borges
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To: Borges
If I boycotted everything I disagree with I'd hardly have anything at all to see or watch.

Borges because of your love affair with Hollywood, there is no propaganda you disagree enough with to stay away from, from you past posts. Though you are completely free to wallow in the mud and enjoy it, do not think most conservatives find you lack of discernment an admiral trait, or one we are likely to start emulating.

41 posted on 01/26/2006 10:16:49 AM PST by Lady Heron
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To: Lady Heron

First off I don't agree with the various takes on this movie (by most who haven't seen it) which depicted Israelis as honorable and duty-bound and was one of the few movies I can recall that showed the fawning media reception given to the terrorists and their enablers. Second off, the old 'I don't need to open the garbage can to know there is garbage inside' argument doesn't fly. I like to examine everything myself and draw my own conclusions and not let others do my thinking for me.


42 posted on 01/26/2006 11:13:48 AM PST by Borges
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Nice catch on the guns and thanks for the E.T. info.

Spielberg has always been politically correct (and therefore beloved in Hollywood) but at least had the decency to take the right side in Private Ryan and Schindler's List (as if there was any other choice).

Too bad that he has now decided to imbue his productions with falsehoods and political messages which will soon relegate him to the nutcase category along with Oliver Stone.

BTW, I saw Munich and loved most of it except for the stupid ending. The sequences showing the terrorist treatment and murder of the athletes were not sanitized, though I think the screenplay would have been improved by placing these scenes chronologically at the beginning rather than at the end when Avner is engaging in coitus with his wife. Not too many dudes I know are flashing back to murder scenes when they are ... errr, otherwise occupied.


43 posted on 01/26/2006 11:23:49 AM PST by KingofZion
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To: Borges

It's not about boycotting EVERYTHING you disagree with. It's just realizing when something is so important to you and truly affects your life that you have the power to do something about it.


44 posted on 01/26/2006 11:35:41 AM PST by Hildy (The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth)
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To: KingofZion
He's hardly been beloved in Hollywood. According to most accounts there has been a long standing resentment and/or jealousy of his popular success for years amongst many in the film industry. That's why it took him so long to win an Oscar.
45 posted on 01/26/2006 11:38:46 AM PST by Borges
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To: KingofZion
The inter-cutting of the murders of the athletes and the sex scene was embarrassingly bad.
46 posted on 01/26/2006 11:39:31 AM PST by Borges
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To: prfix

I saw the film and diliked it for many reasons, especially the attempt to make the Pali terrorists appear to have good reasons to murder Israelis. GAG!


47 posted on 01/26/2006 11:58:57 AM PST by Paulus Invictus
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To: Paulus Invictus

What reasons? The terrorists were depicted as brutal killers and the reasons given by their enablers in the press were smug and specious.


48 posted on 01/26/2006 12:12:54 PM PST by Borges
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