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US Links to Croatian War Crime?
SPIEGEL ^

Posted on 01/24/2006 8:36:47 AM PST by montyspython

Former Croatian General Ante Gotovina stands accused of war crimes in connection with a 1995 military offensive. Some 150 civilians were killed in the advance. Now, it looks like he may have had help from the United States.

His trial may not get started before the end of 2006 or the spring of 2007, but already the case against former Croatian general Ante Gotovina promises some surprises. Gotovina, who is accused of being responsible for the murder of at least 150 Serbian civilians and the eviction of some 150,000 Serbs from the Krajina region in August 1995, may have had some American help.

(Excerpt) Read more at service.spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans; clintonistas; clintonlegacy; clintonsquagmire; croatia; gotovina; hoopielite; jihad; serbia; warcrimes; wrongplace; wrongside; wrongtime; wrongwar; yugoslavia
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1 posted on 01/24/2006 8:36:49 AM PST by montyspython
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To: Balkans

bump


2 posted on 01/24/2006 8:37:24 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython
It's all Bush's fault!

...er, he was President in 1995, wasn't he? /sarcasm off

3 posted on 01/24/2006 8:41:47 AM PST by bcsco ("The Constitution is not a suicide pact"...A. Lincoln)
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To: montyspython

Because it was for a righteous cause, any behavior by the U.S. military and CIA against the Serbs (even Serbian kids) is justified.
Put another way, because Clinton was president, this story will never be examined seriously by the U.S. media.


4 posted on 01/24/2006 8:46:29 AM PST by threeleftsmakearight
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To: bcsco

Yes, the thick oder of Clinton droppings does permeate the air.


5 posted on 01/24/2006 8:47:16 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: Wraith; ma bell; wonders; DTA; Banat; tgambill; FormerLib

bump


6 posted on 01/24/2006 8:49:02 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython

An interesting Croation report and analysis of the level of US support and involvement in 'Operation Storm':

US Role in Storm
Author: Ivo Pukanic

Source: Nacional, Croatian weekly magazine

http://www.nacional.hr/index3e.php?broj=2005-05-24&kat=english&id=516

May 24, 2005

Thrilled with Operation Flash, President Clinton gave the go ahead for Operation Storm



The United States was actively involved in the preparation, monitoring and initiation of Operation Storm: the green light from President Clinton was passed on by the US military attache in Zagreb, and the operations were transmitted in real time to the Pentagon




Considering that the US was much more interested in the situation in BiH than in Croatia, they asked Croatia to permit them to install a military base with ummanned aircraft. The United States not only monitored the complete Operation Storm, but they also actively participated with the Croatian Military in its preparation, and in the end directly initiated the operation. The green light from the White House and then President Clinton for Operation Storm was passed on by Colonel Richard C. Herrick, then US military attaché in Zagreb. Several days prior to the commencement of Operation Storm, Herrick visited Markica Rebiæ in Zagreb. Rebiæ, Miroslav Tudjman, then director of HIS and Miro Medimurac, then head of SIS, held the most intensive communications with the American military and intelligence agencies. As such, in 1996, Rebiæ was awarded the Meritorius Service Medal by Peter Galbraith, then US Ambassador to Croatia.

Herrick passed on the message that the US had no opposition to the beginning of Operation Storm, that the operation had to be ‘clean and fast’ and had to be completed in 5 days time. As Nacional has learned, Rebiæ was surprised that such an important political and military message would be passed on through those channels, and following Herrick’s visit, he immediately informed the state administration of the message in writing, and there is certain record of this today in the archives. As such, it is important to note the Ambassador Peter Galbraith was completely left out of the chain of ‘command’, and that this message came directly from President Clinton, Anthony Lake (then National Security Advisor) and Willian Perry (then Defense Secretary) via Rebiæ to Minister Gojko Šušak and President Tudjman.

This was the climax of the cooperation between the US and Croatia, which began to develop in 1992 at the beginning of the Serbian-Muslim war. In 1995, Clinton was preparing for his re-election, and Bob Dole was the Republican candidate who had requested that Congress remove the arms embargo for the Muslims in BiH. For Clinton, the Balkans became an important issue due to internal matters in the US and his stay in the White House. In their strategy to resolve the crisis, they decided to use Croatia to attack the Serbian forces in BiH, and therefore the Split Declaration was signed by Izetbegoviæ and Tudjman, which permitted the entry of HV forces under the leadership of Ante Gotovina into BiH for the purposes of cooperation with Army BiH. In order to realize that operation, HV had to climb the Dinarid mountains above Knin and liberate the city and Krajina through Operation Storm, and then immediately transfer their troops into BiH in order to pressure the Serbs and force Miloševiæ to sign the Peace Accord in Dayton.

This was a battle against the clock for Clinton, for he needed a quick solution to the crisis in order to halt Dole’s initiative and to prove himself before his voters as a decisive president who could resolve such great crises such as the one in the former Yugoslavia, the horrors of which were shown daily on CNN and other American TV stations. In order to keep the English and French off his back, Clinton bypassed the classical diplomatic channels, in order to be able to claim that he had not participated if the operation were to go sour. However, considering that the operation, led by Richard Holbrook on his behalf, ended successfully, and the men emphasized their success in their respective books.

The first contact at the highest intelligence levels began in 1992, when James Clapper was director of DIA (the Defense Intelligence Agency). His men in Croatia were Colonel Richard Herrick and his assistant Ivan Šaraè. Šaraè was a fourth order [master] sergeant, the highest rank for a non-commissioned officer. Of Croatian descent, he emigrated to the US when he was 17 years old. After a few years, he enlisted in the army and was sent to Zagreb at the beginning of the war there as he was familiar with the circumstances and knew the language. Colonel Herrick was a construction engineer, however, over time he climbed the ladder in the American military and became one of Clapper’s most trusted men.

Quickly a sort of ‘trade’ between the two agencies began. Croatia gave DIA Russian 500 kg underwater mines and the most modern Russian torpedos as well as the encryption codes used by the Yugoslav Army and the Russian army. These weapons were transferred to the US via the Split airport. When the transport was conducted, the entire airport was closed off. Hercules C-130s landed in the night, the arms were loaded and transferred to the US or one of their European bases under the greatest security measures. Also, the Croatian agency revealed the location of a chemical weapons factory in Bijelo polje near Mostar which the Serbs had transferred to Serbia. This was a well-concealed factory which was unknown even to General Bienefeld, who was the greatest expert for chemical weapons in Croatia. With the help of samples found, the American experts were able to uncover all the types of toxins produced there which had possibly been sold to Iraq or other potential enemies of the US. This was only the beginning of cooperation, by which the US immediately delivered wiretapping equipment aimed at monitoring Serbia and Montenegro, a system which could simultaneously record 20,000 telephone conversations. This cooperation was conducted with the US NSA.

Prior to Storm, the operations Summer 94 and Summer 95 had to be carried out. In planning the operations of bringing Croatian troops above Knin, the US assisted in the intelligence part of the operations. In order to precisely plan the penetration into the Bosnian mountains inland of Knin, much information was needed on the movement of Serbian troops, their communication system, codes and establishment of shelling points.

Considering that the US was much more interested in the situation in BiH than in Croatia, they asked Croatia to permit them to install a military base with ummanned aircraft. The basic condition was that this be the best-kept secret, so that it would not appear that the US had taken sides in this war. The island of Brac was selected, as it could be well protected. There all the equipment and personnel led by the CIA experts, with the long-range unmanned aircraft which could cover the entire territory of BiH to the Serbian corridor on the Sava River. The entire Krajina region in Croatia was also in its range. At that time, no one had any idea what was going on and what was being hidden on the island of Brac. Nor did the US allies, the Germans, have any idea. They sent their military attaché there on 1 January 1994. He hired a rent-a-car and drove the outer fence of the base and began taking pictures, thinking that the alertness in the base had faltered on New Year’s Day. However, he was quickly spotted by SIS and arrested. Only when he was brought into Gotovina for questioning was it learned that this was the German military attaché in Zagreb, Hans Schwan.

After this incident, the entire base was transferred to Šepurina near Zadar, and a triple line of defense placed around it. Equipment was brought in from the US overnight, and from Šepurina, the unmanned aircraft could cover every corner of Krajina and BiH. The Americans had a silent agreement with HV to hand over all the photos of the terrain and the Serbian troops, while the images were transferred via satellite in real time to the Pentagon. Three US and three Croatian officers monitored the situation at all times.

Prior to Operation Flash, which was supposed to serve as a dress rehearsal for Storm, at exactly midnight, six hours prior to the beginning of the operation, Herrick and Šaraè were called into the police and were informed that the planned action would begin in a few hours time. In the Police Ministry, at exactly midnight, the staff of Operation Flash was formed, which was transferred to the Defense Ministry at 6 a.m. When the staff was moved, the American military attaché moved with it. He constantly requested updates and sent them directly to Clinton in the White House. Each morning, the American President was informed of the preparations and every part of the operation. The Americans were thrilled by the way Flash was carried out, they realized that this model of cooperation with the Croatians was ideal, and could be decisive in the battle against Miloševiæ in BiH and could ultimately result in removing him from power. The Pentagon coordinated the entire action via Richard Herrick, and the CIA activities were coordinated by Marc Kelton, head of the CIA branch in Zagreb, who cooperated closely with Miroslav Tudjman, then head of HIS.

At the time Storm was under preparation, the Americans supplied HV with intelligence on the movements of Serbs in Krajina and the movements of YNA on the eastern borders of Croatia. They feared that Miloševiæ would launch a counter-attack with two tank brigades in eastern Slavonia if the Croats launched an attack on Knin. Through intensive monitoring of communications between Belgrade and Knin, and within Serbia, they came to the conclusion that there would be no counter-attack. It was risky that the Serbs might launch an attack from Knin itself when Gotovina and his units arrived on the Dinarid mountains above the city. Had the unmanned aircraft and monitoring showed offensive maneuvers by the troops, Storm would have begun ten days earlier.

In the wee hours of 4 August 1995, the Croatian units were issued the command to turn off all telecommunications devices between midnight and 4 am. Later it was learned that the Americans had used that time to electronically intercept and destroy the Serbian telecommunications devices.

HV was left with one hour, from 4-5 AM to use their radio ties to coordinate the operation. Just prior to Storm, the American military attaché was again called to the operation staff. Ivan Šaraè was again with him. One or two days prior to Storm, Herrick, who had prepared Storm with the Croatian officers and gave the operation the green light on Clinton’s behalf, was replaced by Colonel John Sadler. At exactly midnight, they arrived at the operative staff and from there followed all the events in the field. This time, the entire Operation was transmitted in real time via satellite to the Pentagon, where these images remain archived today. The signal transmitted to the signal by the Americans was also received by HV, and with the help of those images, the firing upon Serbian positions and the military base near Knin could be monitored to within millimeters. In addition to electronically destroying the Serbian communications, the US military also acted militarily against the Serbian positions, when it fired on the anti-aircraft battery near Knin from American combat planes that flew over the battle area. That news was released only once, on the 6 o’clock news. Afterwards, the US sharply condemned this, and that news was never repeated. No one believed the official American explanation for the rocket attack, and today the general perception is that this was direct US assistance to HV, only that even ten years after Storm this must not be admitted, due to US-British relations, as Britain had a completely different perspective on how to resolve the Balkan issue. And it still does today.

The US was thrilled with the how fast and clean the operation was conducted, and with its outcome, which permitted the lightning fast entry of HV into BiH and penetration all the way to Banja Luka and, finally, Belgrade’s consent to sign the Dayton Accord. The American control and satisfaction of the complete operation was later confirmed in the statements that the operation was carried out properly, and as such, the US-Croatian cooperation in intelligence and military matters intensified. General Colonel Patrick Hughes, Clapper’s successor as director of DIA, visited Croatia, intensified cooperation in the sector of electronic monitoring of Serbia and Montenegro, other intelligence was swapped, MPRI began its intensive training of the Croatian military and Rebiæ was decorated for his efforts.

The first word that Croatian officers might have to stand trial for the events during Storm was heard in 1997. The US immediately responded and requested on a dozen occasions in discussions with the Hague Prosecutor that Storm, as a militarily-clean operation, be left alone, as Nacional has learned from a high-ranking diplomatic source. At that time, there was a problem concerning the extradition of Mladen Naletiliæ Tuta to the Hague, and the US promised Croatia that the Hague would not raise charges for Storm if they handed Naletiliæ over. Naletiliæ was extradited, and Carla Del Ponte outwitted the American administration and began with her demands that the Croatian generals be investigated as suspects in Storm. The US was dismayed but was not allowed to show this, trying to resolve the matter through quiet diplomacy instead, which to this day has not succeeded. Therefore it would be a step in the right direction for the Hague to request that the Pentagon hand over all the images recorded by the ‘Predator’ unmanned aircraft during and after Storm.

Furthermore, for the interests of truth, all of the high ranking American military and intelligence officers involved in the entire operation, which ended the war in the Balkans and removed Miloševiæ from power, should be called to testify in the Hague. Those responsible for the crimes which took place after the operation are known, and they are the ones which should stand before the court, as they should have eight or nine years ago. Had these men been tried then, Carla Del Ponte today would have no aces up her sleeve, and Croatia would not have the problems it has, with the entire operation proclaimed a ‘criminal operation’ and the entire state administration of the time a ‘criminal organization’.


7 posted on 01/24/2006 8:50:40 AM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat

This is very disheartening.


8 posted on 01/24/2006 10:30:29 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython

Given no Racak Massacre, no mass graves in Kosovo, opppps, sorry, yes there some mass graves found at the end of 2005. Guess what.....wasn't Albanians........

Another Mass Grave In Malisheva Is Being Investigated
Trans: S. Gajtani
12 Aug 05(Zeri) – The workers of Office for Missing Persons and UNMIK forensic teams from Prishtina, lead by their Chief, Pablo Baraybar, started searching for another mass grave in the territory of Malisheva Municipality.
The searches are being made in the same location where three months ago a mass grave with 13 bodies was found, according to the information’s they belonged to the Serbian nationality.
Since Thursday in Mirdita neighborhood of Malisheva, two diggers are working on digging the ground and searching for the mass graves. Argentinean Special Forces are securing the location with tape and a sign to not cross into the area.
So far no bodies has been found according to the Baraybar. The office that is led by him has information that 10 to 13 bodies are in these mass graves, which they suppose are Serbs.
The new searches, according to Baraybar, will continue until they find the bodies. He has information’s that the new mass grave is somewhere near the mass grave that has been found in May of this year.




There Will Be More Exhumations In Kosovo By Year End
Trans. ZvonkoS
Merdare, 10 Aug 05(Tanjug) – President of the Serbia and Montenegro Ministerial Council Committee for investigation of war crimes Gvozden Gagic announced today, that by the end of the year, several mass graves in Kosovo and Metohija will be examined which contain around 40 bodily remains of Serbs and other non-Albanian victims.
“In the following months mass graves will be examined in Suva Reka and others in Kosovo and Metohija, for which is believed that around 80 people of Serbian nationality are buried”, said Gagic after handover of 81 body of Albanian to UNMIK, who were exhumed from mass grave in Batajnica, near Belgrade.


9 posted on 01/24/2006 11:47:18 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: montyspython; tgambill; ma bell
I know of a Serbian family who lived in Okucani. Gave the old guy a can of gas in 1993 in preparation for the coming Croatian attack which came in 1995. They were good people very hospitable.
10 posted on 01/24/2006 12:10:50 PM PST by Wraith (The village called the idiot is missing...)
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To: threeleftsmakearight

How do you know this? Based on what source of information, three?


11 posted on 01/24/2006 1:15:30 PM PST by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: threeleftsmakearight

"Because it was for a righteous cause, any behavior by the U.S. military and CIA against the Serbs (even Serbian kids) is justified."

******huh?? There was no righteous cause here. The Serbs have been demonized for no reason. Yes, there were war crimes committed, however, the Serbs are taking care of those responsibility. The Albanians (KLA), wiped out entire villages killing even the farm animals....there is taped testimony to that fact. The Albanian Extremist have been murdering Serbs since 1999, and it continues to a degree even as of last week. I was there from 1999 to 2004 in a capacity to observe these events.......No mass graves in Kosovo except for Serbian mass graves found in August of 2005.

You have the situation all out of whack....Even the Albanians were lied to by their own KLA and Albanians who were told or paid to give inaccurate information, especially about the "rape camps". This is also confirmed........no kidding.

You cannot trust Balkan History accounts post 1993....they are written by "experts", who are telling the wrong story. The records of history prior to 1990's are accurate. You will notice from the early 90's the facts change or, are distorted. It's interesting.


12 posted on 01/24/2006 2:34:15 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill

"Because it was for a righteous cause, any behavior by the U.S. military and CIA against the Serbs (even Serbian kids) is justified."

Sarcasm on. Joke son, joke.


13 posted on 01/24/2006 3:22:08 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat

oh.....sooooo sory.......my bad...I guess I'm sensitive to the issue.....Dad... :)) (joking)...

It's a pet peave, See ya......

Tom


14 posted on 01/24/2006 3:31:18 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
It's interesting.

As interesting as jokers who come to online forums and try to push lies that are so pathetically transparent that their only recourse when confronted with the facts is to attack the source of those facts, whether it be the United States State Department, the OSCE, or ICTY?

Yeah, interesting.

But in an abnormal psychology kind of way, not a Balkan history kind of way.

By the way, Tom, the existence of the mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica, which had for so long been denied by Serb apologists, was confirmed by Stevanovic while he was giving testimony at Milosevic's trial, while being examined by Milosevic no less.

So not only have we confirmed the existence of mass graves you're lying about by actually finding them, we've had the existence of mass graves which the Serbs emptied before we could find them confirmed.

Ah well, like you said, you aren't being paid for your efforts, and like I said, you're giving the Serbs their money's worth.

15 posted on 01/24/2006 3:55:17 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

there are no where near the mass graves that was claimed. Tell me where Hoppy are the mass graves of Kosovo? Tell me where the mass graves of Racak? The Serbs that were responsible for killing Albanians are being handled by the Serbs as they are aware and are taking care of their own. Nothing can be said about ICTY and The Hague.

I wondered when you were going to pop your little ole head up and find something that you can say. There are many different ways to introduce information or points other than the less than professional way that you do.

However, I've certainly ran into a few that have been worse....if that were possible....:).

There have been many of the so called facts said about the Serbs that have been false to justify entrance into the Balkans. However, I do understand the reasons for entering, (race there before Al Qaeda gets an early foothold, pipeline from the caspian, and keep an eye on Islam that is germanating in the Balkans, etc... Obviously, this is a simplistic view, it's much more complicated and beyond the scope of this forum.....

One example of the manipulation and change of policy:

Circa 1998:

There's a military insurrection that is taking shape, backed by the members of the Albania Diaspora in Germany, Switzerland, and right here in New York City, where a lot of Albanians and Albanian-Americans are sending a lot of money and support to Kosovo. (Gosh - NYC? -SG)

Holbrooke: An independent Kosovo would "unravel Southeastern Europe."

JIM LEHRER: And they want an independent Kosovo ruled by Albanians, right?

RICHARD HOLBROOKE: Yes. And more. I met with several Albanian leaders in Kosovo who said their goal is an independent Kosovo, their goal is to recreate the Greater Albania that existed briefly during the 30's and 40's, which includes Albania, Kosovo, and part of Macedonia. That, I can tell you, Jim, would unravel Southeastern Europe and dramatically increase the chances of a general war. And that's why the situation is both not the same as Bosnia and why it's so dangerous I really need to stress this point so people do not misunderstand it. The Kosovo Albanians have been very badly treated for over a decade by the Serb minority in Kosovo. Their rights have been denied and the Yugoslav federal constitution was changed to reduce their powers. This was entirely wrong, and it led to the inevitable reaction which we're now seeing. At the same time, the violent solution which is being advocated by the so-called Kosovo Liberation Army, which is really not an army but a lot of different groups that are gradually forming an infrastructure of resistance, this approach is highly dangerous to stability in the region.



Sept. 10, 2002
Cumberland, Md.: Where you aware of the KLA and Bosnian Muslims' ties to Osama bin Laden at the time you were negotiating with them?

Richard C. Holbrooke: Yes. In fact, we were so concerned about this issue that we wrote into the Dayton Peace Agreements a clause requiring the withdrawal of all "foreign elements" within a short time after the agreement took force. When we found elements that had remained behind, we launched raids against them. Not all of these people were removed, and the effort is still continuing. Without the peace in Bosnia, there is a real chance that bin Laden would have been able to set up in the Balkans what he did in Afghanistan with far greater danger to the West.

Now--fast-forward Nov 8 2005:
Holbrooke, the architect of the 1995 Bosnian peace deal, who said that independence was the only way forward for Kosovo and its mainly Muslim Albanians.

"I cannot see any final status for Kosovo other than independence," said Holbrooke, who forged the Dayton Peace Accords that ended Bosnia's 1992-95 war.

"But at the same time ... this cannot be achieved without ironclad guarantees for the safety, security, and protection of the rights of the Serbs who live in Kosovo and the protection of their magnificent monuments," he said.

mass graves:

http://www.serbia-info.com/news/1999-08/28/14126.html

More mass graves were found in Maleselev in August 2005.....

Mass graves were found in several places of Albanians. The Serbs as I said before are prosecuting these criminals after the U.S. put their foot down for them to do so. The Serbs have been such good boys and girls in cleaning up their closet that they are sending troops to work with the UN.....

Now, what convictions have been upheld for Ramush H. and Fatmir Limaj? None.....Six witnesses against Ramush have been murdered to include Tahir Zemaj, was a former FARK member, and member of LDK pol party. Long time enemy of Thaci.

mass graves: Yes, both Albanians and Serbs......

Hopelite....search for the truth not partial truth as you would cover up the truth......try again, cut the sarcasm and share, provided discussion, facts (that are researched). So, if you can't, don't go away mad....just go away. Or, come up with an unbiased opjective discussion.

Tom


16 posted on 01/24/2006 5:09:03 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
there are no where near the mass graves that was claimed

Well wait a minute, Tom.

One minute you're saying there were no mass graves of Kosovo Albanians, and now you're admitting, in a rather backhand way, that there were.

If you can't get even the most elementary facts straight, what use are you?

17 posted on 01/24/2006 5:14:57 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

Uh notice where I said there were no mass graves.....uh, Kosovo...there were no mass graves of Albanians...But, there were of Serbs.....

I see you are still up to your old tricks......

Tom


18 posted on 01/24/2006 6:20:50 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
So you're back to trying to say that there were no mass graves of Albanians in Kosovo - even when Milosevic has General Stevanovic testifying that there were?

Or are you just trying to say you don't know that either Pusto Selo or Izbica are in Kosovo?

19 posted on 01/24/2006 6:29:43 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

Hopeless, you have the time to waste, I don't have the time to lay out the complete scenario for you or details that you should know yourself. In other words, you are into the game playing, with the agenda of discrediting those that are passing out the truth.

You have a tendency of leaving out the right info, and trying to redirect answers like a lawyer or like those knotheads on libertyforum....what a bunch that is.

Present facts to give me, and I will say....opppppps...and I will learn something. Or, maybe you have something to learn. But, instead, you are reading the posts not to share, learn or participate but to find any and all possible holes to prove some point that you have to make and not because it's true.....

Tom


20 posted on 01/24/2006 6:33:58 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Hoplite

Saying that there are there and finding them are two different things.

The graves they dug up, in testimony, said that they had markers and flowers on them....

We can play later, I have some more things to do but will revisit this later.


21 posted on 01/24/2006 6:39:50 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
What scenario is there to lay out?

You're lying about the non-existence of mass graves of Kosovar Albanians in Kosovo when even Milosevic's own witness confirms their existence.

You don't have any wriggle room here, Tom - you're lying, and you've been caught in the lie.

22 posted on 01/24/2006 6:40:47 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; arete; ...
"joint criminal undertaking" with the goal of ethnically cleansing the Serbs from Croatia.

Bump

23 posted on 01/24/2006 6:45:01 PM PST by A. Pole (Dr. Michael Savage is in and the diagnosis is clear: "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder")
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To: Hoplite

Hopelite,

I see that you are on the attack here. One, I never lie...no reason to. Have I been mistaken before, sure. Caught you in several lies anyway, by omission. Also, in many post you were absolutely deceptive and purposely.

Now, I have not read the whole testimony. I actaully do not know about mass graves found prior to October 1999. If they came out of testimony, and they found the bodies as a result, it's not called lying, it's called stating what I know to be true after 1999. duh!!!! Then, if after testimony, they have found mass graves or they dug up mass graves early in 1999, it's not called lying, it's called discovery. Not lying like you...............or, deception.

I know that after October 1999 no mass graves were discovered. I was not aware of any mass graves in Kosovo prior to October 1999....

I have a room full of wiggle room.......son. And dinner in a few minutes.....

Tom


24 posted on 01/24/2006 6:57:08 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: ma bell
I think you need to increase the sensitivity of your sarcasm detection meter ma bell.
25 posted on 01/24/2006 6:59:19 PM PST by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: tgambill; Hoplite; ma bell
Tom we agree that the majority of the population in Kosovo are ethnic Albanian. Funny with a huge population of potential witness running around not one Albanian came forward to direct the UN or KFOR to a mass grave containing Albanians. If it were Serbs they the Albanians could care less. Not one mass grave of Albanians came up as fact. During my time in Kosovo I had access to daily SitReps and no mass graves. I had dealing with the CCIU (UNMIK Police) who were tasked to work with the ICTY War Crimes investigations. NO confirmed mass grave of any kind were found. You would think the Albanians would be lined up at the door to expose a so called mass grave and further expose the Serbs. They did not because there are none. The only possibility of any mass graves out there in Kosovo are Serbs period.

Tom you have to realize that you are arguing with a former reserve soldier/cook and senile to boot. He can tell you how to flip a pancake but as far as the subject of Kosovo goes he can only rely on his imagination just like the bullshit feed to the world about mass graves in Kosovo. You may find this interesting. Imagine the KLA masters of deception.

From owner-labor-l@YORKU.CA Sun Aug 29 16:15:06 2004 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 15:52:05 EDT Sender: Labor in the Global Economy From: Roland Sheppard Subject: FYI: Massacres in Kosovo never happened, say Canadians who investigated mass graves To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA

Massacres in Kosovo never happened, say Canadians who investigated mass graves By Bruce Garvey, The Ottawa Citizen 29 August 2004 The war crimes tribunal in The Hague is beginning to panic over its case against former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic according to a Vancouver detective sent to unearth mass graves in Kosovo and a Canadian filmmaker who documented the exhumations.

I would think they'll have a tough time with the charge of genocide with only 5,000 bodies, said retired Vancouver detective sergeant Brian Honeybourn. It seems as though The Hague is beginning to panic.

Mr. Milosevic's trial is to resume next week with the former Serbian dictator defending himself against charges of genocide and crimes against humanity. Former Canadian Supreme Court justice Louise Arbour made history when she laid the charges—the first against a head of state—as the tribunal's special prosecutor.

Calgary filmmaker Garth Pritchard and Sgt. Honeybourn are critical of Ms. Arbour, now UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and her claims that the Serbs, directed by Mr. Milosevic, murdered as many as 200,000 civilians during its ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.

The alleged massacres were used by U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and Western leaders as justification for their bombing campaign and intervention in Kosovo, and were regularly and routinely reported as fact on television networks such as the CBC and CNN, as the West backed the Albanian Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) against the Serbs.

This was a massacre that never happened, Mr. Pritchard maintains.

I was standing there when the forensic teams were telling Louise Arbour there were no 200,000 bodies and she didn't want to know.

Mr. Pritchard, who has produced more than a dozen documentaries on the Balkan and Afghan wars, said yesterday he has been approached by Hague prosecutors to testify in their case against Mr. Milosevic after turning down a request to appear as a defence witness for the former president.

I was telephoned by an RCMP officer seconded to the Hague tribunal's investigative unit, a corporal named Tom Steenvoorden, who told me the total number of bodies they have recovered amounts to 5,080, which is a far cry from 200,000, he told the Citizen.

I want someone like Peter Mansbridge or Ms. Arbour to tell me where the other 195,000 bodies are. This is a massacre that never happened.

Mr. Pritchard said he refused to co-operate with the Hague prosecutors, just as he had with representatives of Mr. Milosevic.

Other Canadians who have been named as potential defence witnesses include Citizen reporter David Pugliese and retired Maj.-Gen Lewis MacKenzie, who have both said they will refuse, and war correspondent and magazine publisher Scott Taylor, who has agreed to defend articles he wrote for the Citizen from Kosovo.

Sgt. Honeybourn and forensic team leader Brian Strongman echoed Mr. Pritchard's doubts that the genocidal massacre by the Serbs ever took place.

I can't say that there weren't 200,000 bodies because I wasn't covering the entire country, said Sgt. Honeybourn.

But I never saw any sign of anything like 200,000. If there were that many, then why did they have us exhuming single graves? The biggest mass grave we examined contained about 20 and there was another one of 11. But mostly our nine-member team worked on single graves.

Mr. Strongman said he recalls that exhumations by the Canadian group and 11 other international teams never matched the rumours of mass graves holding the bodies of many thousands.

We only spent 45 days there, he said, but I believe the largest mass grave we investigated held 20 bodies. I was in Bosnia and remember one mass grave that held 200—certainly we never saw anything like that in Kosovo. Of course, Louise Arbour and people had to talk about figures like 200,000 to justify bringing in NATO.

Sgt. Honeybourn, a veteran of more than 30 years of police work, was a member of the first Canadian forensic specialist team that joined units from several western countries in the search for the alleged 200,000 buried victims.

Now he maintains that the Hague staff under Ms. Arbour was confused and incompetent.

Our resources were not maximized, simple as that, he said. There seemed to be a pronounced lack of co-ordination, which was extremely frustrating. I don't think we were deployed properly.

In the six weeks Sgt. Honeybourn spent digging up fetid graves in Kosovo during the sweltering summer of 1999, the Canadian team exhumed 86 bodies.

Outside of being able to give information to family members of bodies they exhumed and identified, he regarded the mission, which cost Canada more than $1.2 million, as an investigative failure and a waste of time.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2004

This is another one saying the same thing, Hoplite is full of it. He has Depends to depend on though...

26 posted on 01/24/2006 7:40:30 PM PST by Wraith (The village called the idiot is missing...)
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To: montyspython

Sorry Monty better late than never...


27 posted on 01/24/2006 7:42:06 PM PST by Wraith (The village called the idiot is missing...)
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To: Wraith

The Spanish forensic team came to the same conclusion as reported in El Pais.


28 posted on 01/24/2006 7:46:37 PM PST by Incorrigible (If I lead, follow me; If I pause, push me; If I retreat, kill me.)
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To: Wraith

Thanks for the detail and work you put into that. This was a lot of info here I wasn't aware of, is an understatment. This is what I come here to FR for, exactly.

Tom


29 posted on 01/24/2006 7:50:46 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
I was not aware

I see - so you're playing the "Ignorance" defence.

Absolutely pathetic, Tom. You don't go around making absolute statements like "No mass graves of Kosovar Albanians found in Kosovo" unless you know what you're talking about.

And you don't know what you're talking about.

Which works for me - I kind of figured your whole "Kosovo expertise" was more a product of your imagination than anything else, and I'm right, which is why you're backpedaling faster than a circus clown who's made a wrong turn into oncoming traffic.

30 posted on 01/24/2006 9:24:28 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; tgambill; montyspython; Wraith; A. Pole
Klecka, Kosovo and Metohija 1998:

Serbian police discovered a cremation oven in the lime factory in Klecka village, used to dispose of murdered Serbian civilians. Klecka contained a KLA base including a training camp and a munitions depot. Captured KLA terrorists from Malisevo, Lyan Mazreku and Bekim Mazreku, told the police that in July, 1998 the KLA captured, killed and burned 22 Serbian civilians in the village of Klecka, some 45km southwestern of Pristina. Civilians were put before a firing squad and executed. The lime factory ovens were used in hope that the high temperatures would destroy the evidence. However, several partially burned bodies remained. In Klecka village, bodies of 22 Serb civilians were found.



Albanian crematorium for the Serbs!
31 posted on 01/24/2006 10:00:34 PM PST by zagor-te-nej (USS - United States of Serbia)
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To: Wraith
Funny with a huge population of potential witness running around not one Albanian came forward to direct the UN or KFOR to a mass grave containing Albanians.

Lemme guess, Wraith - you too are ignorant of the fact that mass graves were reported to KFOR and other internationals by the K-Albanians?

Is it the US State Department:

Vidomiric          French
An alleged mass grave of unknown size and contents has been reported to KFOR for Vidomiric on 5 July 1999.

and the French:

French police said yesterday that the bodies of more than 20 ethnic Albanians had been exhumed from a mass grave in Vidomiric. Seven bodies were identified. All were among 23 ethnic Albanian men rounded up during a raid in Kosovska Mitrovica on April 14, three weeks after the start of the 78-day war, a statement said.

who are the liars here?

No. It's you and Tom.

I can only guess you both drank too much DU contaminated water, and it has adversely affected your memories to the point where you can't remember a damned thing about what transpired while either of you were in Kosovo.

Either that, or you're both incompetent shills, who are too lazy and sloppy to fact-check your lies before you commit them to public viewing.

32 posted on 01/24/2006 10:45:16 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Berosus; blam; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Do not dub me shapka broham; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...

Uh-oh, sounds like another smear campaign directed against our beloved president Bill Clinton. Must be that vast right wing corporate conspiracy which runs all media companies and manufactures consent for Republican crimes. /sarc


33 posted on 01/24/2006 10:47:16 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: Hoplite

:)) I hope you are a young man. If you aren't, then you are wasting time and should get a life, make up with your mother, start taking meds, or just get a life.

Son, it's not a defense, it's knowing your limitations, what you know and don't know, and willing to be honest with oneself. You missed the whole point. The past posts explained the mass graves, and I was right as it turns out. No mass graves have been proven yet....and if you read the past posts you will see that.

I can go around and make statements all I want....Listen up.....sweetpea (lolol), you made an assumption just after reading part of one article where the Serb said there were mass graves. You don't comprehend that there are rifts even in the Serbian leadership that would cause them to make false accusations and lie while on trial. Also, some Serbs did work with Albanian KLA. Ohhhhh, bet you didn't know that now did you? But it's true......

Yes, I do know very well what I'm talking about. I also learn from others that have had experiences that I didn't have.....then you put your experiences together and there you have a picture or confirmations.....

It's not backpeddling my dear boy, it's called being open minded and willing to share and experience.

You.... Well, you have some serious issues. Know what pumpkin, You will of course deny it, but it's my bet that you are baiting me, and hoping I will write some words that would give you justification to have my posts banned. Now, hoppie, you aren't that clever are you? hmmmmmmm??

But if the clown had those duck feet things...he wouldn't be able to back peddle too long now would he. You werent' very specific about that....can't you at least be a little more exact even in these attacks......

you sleep well, and don't forget to call those you love and say good night......one never knows what the morrow will bring.....


34 posted on 01/24/2006 10:55:58 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Incorrigible

By the way....the head of the team resigned the position out of disgust.....it wasn't a pretty situation when he left the detail. He was pissed off......


35 posted on 01/24/2006 10:57:45 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
You missed the whole point.

No Tom, the point is that you're a liar.

No mass graves have been proven yet

And furthermore you're not smart enough to realize when a lie is no longer maintainable.

36 posted on 01/24/2006 11:30:49 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

naw, not a liar, but I will do some more research.....I did find some interesting reports that I have to verify first.

Liar, no......

Besides, you seem to need meds or something. You're just a little high strung. Hope you don't have high blood pressure or anything.

Sleep well, and make sure you eat your wheaties....

ta ta for now....

Tom


37 posted on 01/25/2006 12:07:36 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill

He made a direct personal attack on you. That's the troll seal of approval. When he attacks like that, it means you're coming very close to the Truth. Nice work!


38 posted on 01/25/2006 2:11:26 AM PST by getoffmylawn (The 2005 World Champion Chicago White Sox...now Konerko AND Thome? Are you kidding me???)
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To: montyspython

Man, great work.
I`m glade that German "Spiegel" is reporting that.
Can you even imagine Serbian article report?
Hoplite wouold jump in the air screaming:

"It`s a lie, it`s a lie I tell ya!"

When Germans are talking on injustice and terror done over Serbs, than that is Gods truth.


39 posted on 01/25/2006 2:43:17 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full official name.)
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To: Hoplite

I see that you cannot reply to post #26 and have been reduced to personally abusing posters and shrieking "liar, liar" as your sole reasoning. I can't say this comes as a surprise to anyone.


40 posted on 01/25/2006 5:09:30 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Wraith

You've really got and ticked off one retired pancake flipper! You know how he hates the truth.


41 posted on 01/25/2006 5:10:47 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: getoffmylawn

you think i made hoplies hall of fame?


42 posted on 01/25/2006 6:09:45 AM PST by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: Hoplite; Wraith; ma bell; getoffmylawn; tgambill
So, any comments on the article or are you just going to sit there and chase Tom around like a little puppy dog?
43 posted on 01/25/2006 7:29:25 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: zagor-te-nej; Hoplite

So why didn't the US bomb the Albanians?


44 posted on 01/25/2006 7:30:51 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: ma bell; getoffmylawn
Hoplite is a geriatric majmun, senility is not pretty folks.
45 posted on 01/25/2006 7:32:22 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: FormerLib; Wraith; ma bell

46 posted on 01/25/2006 7:39:33 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: robowombat

It's interesting that this article didn't mention about any involvement of MPRI or the Muh. also participating in Storm. However, it's a good article....

Tom


47 posted on 01/25/2006 8:07:08 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Hoplite; ma bell; montyspython; Wraith; A. Pole; Incorrigible; getoffmylawn; robowombat

"The existence of the mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica"

***** Hopline....You have been a dirty little boy. I know now that you aren't working for someone professional to be a disinfo agent. Know why? I caught you in a very unsophiscated lie. Let me show you.




You said.....#15

"By the way, Tom, the existence of the mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica, which had for so long been denied by Serb apologists, was confirmed by Stevanovic while he was giving testimony at Milosevic's trial, while being examined by Milosevic no less.

So not only have we confirmed the existence of mass graves you're lying about by actually finding them, we've had the existence of mass graves which the Serbs emptied before we could find them confirmed."



****Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I could be mistaken in that I arrived in October 1999, and can only account for the period afterwards.....so, I researched and found the following:

The actual cross of Stevanovic was as follows:

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg060205.htm


"Gen. Stevanovic claimed that this was a reference to the activities of the KLA. He said that the terrain needed to be cleaned-up so that the KLA could not create mass-graves and stage atrocities out of their war casualties, and then palm them off as evidence of mass killings that would serve to justify the NATO aggression.

The KLA has a history of staging its war dead to create the false impression of a massacre. A case in point is Racak, and Gen. Stevanovic said they did the same thing at Pusto Selo and Izbica.

Obviously Stevanovic was not referring to the police’s activity. Nobody ever classifies their own activity as “perfidious” or uses the word “they” to refer to themselves.

Mr. Nice was simply exploiting vaguely worded notes that Stevanovic jotted down in his diary to concoct elaborate conspiracy theories about the Serbian police; conspiracy theories, which the witness ripped apart.

Frustrated at his lack of success, the prosecutor resorted to insults and claimed that the witness was "ready to lie in order to protect this accused." The witness naturally denied this claim."

END QUOTE OF REPORT



******So, Where did Stevanovic confirm these massacres'? It seems that he didn't confirm them at all. Explain to me relative to the cross and to your accusation. What am I missing?

So, I did some MORE research and discovered an official report based on the ICTY forensic team. Here is what happened. The OSCE gained intell from interviews of refugees in the FRYOM. (Former Yuglslav Republic of Macedonia). It was reported that a massacre of civilians took place in Izbica/Izbice during three days at the end of April. The villagers buried the victims who were mainly from Leocina/lecine. Srbica/Skenderaj municipility, along with other people killed in the vicinity. The burial of these 142 bodies, which included women and children in the center of the village was documented by the KLA (UCK) on videotape. On 2 June, it was reported that Serb forces removed the bodies to an unknown destination. The ICTY forensic team arrived at the beginning of July and exhumed 142 graves......ALL WERE EMPTY. Reportedly, the bodies had been previoiusly identified but had later disappeared. Now this would seem to confirm Stevanovic's story. NOW, I wonder if the defense has accesss to the same reports that I can get hold of....??? anyway, these are official not rumor. I couldn't find anything yet on the Pusto Selo report.

It was also known that bodies were used from the NATO bombing, to show mass graves, Refugees from FRYROM, were told what to say, and either threatened or given money. It's hard to pin point what is true and what is fabricated.

What do you say for yourself at this time......now, I'm going to research the other ones you wrote and let's see if they pan out....

Tom


48 posted on 01/25/2006 9:45:04 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
Tom, the point is that there were mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica, and General Stevanovic confirmed their existence, along with the fact that the Serbs emptied them.

Further, the actual transcripts of Milosevic's trial are available online, so instead of relying upon the commentary you've culled from Andy Wilcoxson's pro-Milosevic propaganda site, let's review the actual exchange between Mr. Nice and General Stevanovic:

Page 40382

1   Q. Now, you tell me, please, what that phrase "No corpse, no crime"
2   means.
3   A. I think I have explained this during my interview in Belgrade. At
4   that meeting, I don't know precisely which meeting that was but I do have
5   a vague memory, one of the representatives of the security forces, whether
6   it was the military or the civilian security, I don't know, warned against
7   perfidious action by terrorists, namely that they are removing the corpses
8   of their victims and the casualties of anti-terrorist actions only to
9   gather them again later and place them in mass graves in order to blame
10   these mass graves later on Serbian forces.

If you choose to believe that the Serbs emptied mass graves in Kosovo and hid the bodies in Serbia, denying their existence for over two years, because they were trying to stop themselves from being framed, well, knock yourself out - you really can't sink any lower.

49 posted on 01/25/2006 10:46:41 AM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite

what I read is that a lot of the graves were KLA, and resulting from firefights with the Serbs. Secondly, in the case of Izbica, the ICTY for. couldn't find any bodies. The reports were that the Serbs dug up the graves and took them to Serbian. These reports along with the KLA documented the "dead" were more than likely falsified. Granted, there were firefights between Serbs and KLA.....this is not abnormal in a counter-insurgency operation.

However, the witnesses can't be trusted, the KLA can't be trusted and there were Serbian Paramilitary that was really pissed off so they killed people. Especially the ones shooting with real guns. ;).....




"If you choose to believe that the Serbs emptied mass graves in Kosovo and hid the bodies in Serbia, denying their existence for over two years, because they were trying to stop themselves from being framed, well, knock yourself out - you really can't sink any lower."

****** No, I'm saying that the KLA and witnesses could very well be lying about the Serbs moving the bodies at all.

*****The KLA was making up mass graves and reporting false massacre's...You cannot believe the witnesses accounts...

Also, the freezer trucks, well that's another story altogether.......which reminds me....

It's lunch time......




50 posted on 01/25/2006 11:20:07 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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