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MS to omit anti-virus from Vista
The Register ^ | 30 January 2006 | John Leyden

Posted on 01/30/2006 11:00:56 AM PST by ShadowAce

Microsoft will omit anti-virus protection in Vista, the next version of Windows, which it plans to ship late this year. As with previous versions of Windows dating back to Windows 2000 at least, Redmond is promoting Vista as a landmark improvement in Windows security.

Jim Allchin, co-president of Microsoft's platform products and services division, told reseller magazineCRN that safety and security, improved user experience, and mobility features will be key additions in Vista. But there will be no anti-virus software, the Windows development supremo said during a questions and answers session with CRN. For unspecified business (not technical) reasons, Microsoft will sell anti-virus protection to consumers through its OneCare online backup and security service.

Symantec, though its assisted enquiries from investigators, has said it would rather take on Microsoft in the marketplace than cry foul to regulators over Microsoft's entry into the consumer anti-virus marketplace. McAfee has made no suggestion it's about to object to Redmond's encroachment on it traditional turf, either. So it seems Microsoft has either decided anti-virus technology is better delivered as a service or else figured out that's a better business model to pursue.

We're not sure which because Allchin ducked CRN's question on why anti-virus software won't feature in Vista by saying the answer was "complicated", but not based on technical concerns. Curiously, basic anti-spyware protection - via Windows Defender - will feature in Vista.

Vista will also include a major revamp of Internet Explorer (IE 7), features designed to thwart phishing, and group policy management features that make it easier to control the use of USB devices. Windows' built-in firewall will be revamped to filter malicious traffic originating from a Vista PC as well as ingress filtering, the half on the equation that came with Windows XP.

Allchin said security in Vista is far improved from Windows XP SP2, whose heavily touted security features include technology that has made computer worms (though not Trojans based on the recent Windows Meta File vulnerability) less of a problem. "SP2 was a very good system, but compared to Vista it's night and day," Allchin said.

In a separate Q&A session, Allchin was grilled by Redmond's local paper, The Seattle Times, during which he explained that Microsoft has changed its development program with Vista to include fewer release candidates for the operating system. New community-technology previews, with more frequent drops targeted at different audiences, will speed the development process, Allchin said.

The feature set in Vista has now been finalised and Microsoft's focus has moved on to quality assurance. "Between now and RTM we're doing nothing but listening to usability feedback, improving performance and quality," Allchin told CRN. ®


TOPICS: Technical
KEYWORDS: antivirus; convictedmonopoly; lowqualitycrap; malware; microsoft; userfriendly; vista
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1 posted on 01/30/2006 11:00:58 AM PST by ShadowAce
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To: rdb3; chance33_98; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Bush2000; PenguinWry; GodGunsandGuts; CyberCowboy777; ...

2 posted on 01/30/2006 11:01:11 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

Legacy AntiVirus technology is useless against today's threats. Legacy AV is based off of 20+ year old threats. Simply put, it can't be updated fast enough and it is always reactive.


3 posted on 01/30/2006 11:04:59 AM PST by xrp
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To: ShadowAce
Redmond is promoting Vista as a landmark improvement in Windows security.Just in case anybody was thinking of buying some stock......SYMC 18.15......MFE 22.93. :)
4 posted on 01/30/2006 11:07:47 AM PST by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: USNBandit

5 posted on 01/30/2006 11:11:02 AM PST by Izzy Dunne (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help me spread by copying me into YOUR tag line.)
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To: ShadowAce

If you make the OS bullet-proof you don't need anti-virus protection in the first place...........


6 posted on 01/30/2006 11:13:18 AM PST by Red Badger (...I will bless them that bless thee and those who curse thee I will turn into Liberals..........)
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To: Red Badger

That's called OS X


7 posted on 01/30/2006 11:16:56 AM PST by Panerai
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To: ShadowAce

I've been fooling around with Red Hat 9 Linux recently. For all that it's a couple of years old, it's pretty good; it seems a little 'quicker' than the W2K I normally use, but installing drivers and upgrades is still pretty grim. The real problem is lack of Linux drivers from peripheral manufacturers; SANE is a pretty good 'universal' scanner driver but my wife looks at the HP 6300C and wants to know why the buttons on the front don't work any more.


8 posted on 01/30/2006 11:17:01 AM PST by Grut
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To: Panerai

...or izzit SOX?..........


9 posted on 01/30/2006 11:17:51 AM PST by Red Badger (...I will bless them that bless thee and those who curse thee I will turn into Liberals..........)
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To: ShadowAce

I'm betting that MSFT simply doesn't want to deal with the constant updating required by antivirus software. That and the risk that a nasty virus will get through and really tick off users.

Let Symantec and others bear this difficult burden. I think that's the "business" decision Microsoft is making here.

As someone said, "That way lies madness..."


10 posted on 01/30/2006 11:23:28 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: ShadowAce
So it seems Microsoft has either decided anti-virus technology is better delivered as a service or else figured out that's a better business model to pursue.

MS may be heading off anti-trust complaints and suits by unbundling the AV software from the O/S. They've had too many bad experiences in the past with their all-incluse software packages both in the U.S. and abroad.

Besides, allowing other AV software companies means that those companies will be using the new O/S, hence, more clients. MS may even be planning to market their own AV package as a means of additional revenue.

And, forget about a foolproof-O/S or protected O/S or AV-proof or Adware-proof or Trojan-proof software. Ain't no such thing. No matter what is built, somebody, somewhere will find the faults and the holes in it. You can only build it good in the beginning and improve on it later.
11 posted on 01/30/2006 11:26:16 AM PST by adorno
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To: Red Badger
If you make the OS bullet-proof you don't need anti-virus protection in the first place...........

Yea.

Step one. Remove 99.999% of the features of today's modern OSs.

Step two. Limit device support to a small number of devices that con be supported with simple drivers developed in house.

Step three. Do not allow any third party drivers to be loaded.

Step four. Only allow verified and tested third party software and only give that software a very limited API to interface to the OS with.

You've now got a decent starting poing for making a solid and secure OS.

Add in some rigid design procedures and outside test and verification, and if you're reasonably efficient, you'll only spend a couple thousand dollars per line of code for something arguably solid and secure.

For more information se the D.O. 178 standards for software design used in avaition system.

12 posted on 01/30/2006 11:28:47 AM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: ShadowAce; John Lenin
Microsoft will omit anti-virus protection in Vista, the next version of Windows, which it plans to ship late this year. As with previous versions of Windows dating back to Windows 2000 at least, Redmond is promoting Vista as a landmark improvement in Windows security.

How interesting. Here is something to think about, given MS's new DRM policy of having to review every third party driver that goes into Vista: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1567076/posts Anti-virus/spyware program developement are going to be dragged to the point where they will go months between driver updates/patches if ever considering third party anti-virus/spyware programers are going to have a difficult time telling the difference between Vista DRM and viruses/spyware.

The realities of the software industry in dealing with viruses and spyware is about to give MS a good hard slap over Vista plan DRM policies and programs.

13 posted on 01/30/2006 11:29:01 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: adorno

See post 13.


14 posted on 01/30/2006 11:31:09 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: ShadowAce
More FUD
15 posted on 01/30/2006 11:31:59 AM PST by XeniaSt (Trust in YHvH forever, for the LORD, YHvH is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: MineralMan; xrp; USNBandit

See post 13 of this thread.


16 posted on 01/30/2006 11:32:09 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: untrained skeptic

Step 0.5 Install OpenBSD out of the box!


17 posted on 01/30/2006 11:33:20 AM PST by xrp
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To: untrained skeptic

Sounds a lot like MAC OS-xxxxxx.xxxx


18 posted on 01/30/2006 11:34:10 AM PST by Red Badger (...I will bless them that bless thee and those who curse thee I will turn into Liberals..........)
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To: ShadowAce
I bet Gates simply doesn't want to develop an entirely new business of AV updating and monitoring without any additional revenue generation. In other words, it's too much trouble for something he would be giving away for free.

Now, if MSFT decides to develop and market its own "Vista-oriented" AV system, now, that's another story. There's potential dollars to be found there.

19 posted on 01/30/2006 11:35:28 AM PST by KellyAdmirer
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To: Panerai
That's called OS X

OS X doesn't encounter as many viruses or malware as Windows. But then again, what percentage of users does OS-X have compared to Windows. If OS-X were to get large enough to compare with the number of Windows users, then there would be a whole number of new viruses developed for that software. The least used software often have the least number of viruses or other malware developed for it.

Bullet-proof software doesn't exist. Not even OS X.
20 posted on 01/30/2006 11:36:37 AM PST by adorno
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To: xrp

No problem, plenty of good free AV, Spyware, Anti-trojan
software out there.


21 posted on 01/30/2006 11:37:54 AM PST by DAC21
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To: Grut
My modem doesn't work on my Thinkpad 600E in Xandros and because IBM disabled the serial port, I can't boot up with my external serial modem. No way to get online. Xandros won't install the Mwave ACP drivers that are included in the 2.6 Linux kernel. Go figure. And I don't want to have to compile or spend time compiling the Thinkpad utilities to straighten out IBM's goof in turning off certain ports. What's more, the IBM BIOS gives you no way of managing irq requests and turning on and off devices as needed. YIKES!

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

22 posted on 01/30/2006 11:46:16 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: adorno
Maybe not. But I am not even running anti-virus software in Mac OSX and I don't intend to in Linux. There's nothing that can harm the computer or mess up critical files.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

23 posted on 01/30/2006 11:49:13 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: DAC21

See post 13, none of those programs will be allowed to run on Vista per MS's Vista DRM policy.


24 posted on 01/30/2006 11:50:11 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Grut

"I've been fooling around with Red Hat 9 Linux recently."

Try Fedora Core 4. It's not bad.


25 posted on 01/30/2006 11:52:31 AM PST by brownsfan (It's not a war on terror... it's a war with islam.)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
The entire DRM concept sucks. No more hacked ancient software you could have that's still useful. The entire idea of warez is histoire. Redmond is like the Borg Of The Computer Age: "Resistance Is Futile; You Will Be Assimilated."

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

26 posted on 01/30/2006 11:52:54 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: xrp

OpenBSD is more secure and stable than Windows.

That's not saying much.

It comes no where near close to what I would consider secure or stable for an avionics application.


27 posted on 01/30/2006 11:55:55 AM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: goldstategop
The entire DRM concept sucks. No more hacked ancient software you could have that's still useful. The entire idea of warez is histoire. Redmond is like the Borg Of The Computer Age: "Resistance Is Futile; You Will Be Assimilated."

Actually Slashdot.org is the borg, but that's another issue.

Do you realize the ****storm MS is going to create because of this. When a major virus/spyware hits Vista, MS's Vista DRM policy will prevent third party patching to protect viruses/spyware for at least month if not longer, compared to the day or two it takes for anti-virus/anti-spyware programers to catch up and create patches for their programs.

The word of mouth from consumers will hurts sales because everyone will learn none of their old games, programs, freeware , nor hardware work will with Vista.

Most people do not have 2 grand in cash to shell out for not just a new computer, but a monitor and new software.

Keep in mind that legacy compatiblity was a new draw for previous Windows OS's.

MS is making the exact same mistakes that IBM and Apple made in the 80's, and they are going to hurt themselves by it.

28 posted on 01/30/2006 12:02:19 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Panerai

"That's called OS X"

In a previously life it was called BSD.


29 posted on 01/30/2006 12:02:37 PM PST by Moral Hazard ("Now therefore kill every male among the little ones" - Numbers 31:17)
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To: ShadowAce
According to MSFT, they're listening to the beta testers in order to improve quality. If Vista is as good as XP or Windows 2003 in their first release, than it will be a great O/S. If it's better, it'll be a surprise. Both XP and 2003 were rock solid but so was Windows 2000.

I only wish they'd left in the file system based on SQL, otherwise, why upgrade? XP is perfect for my desktop needs and 2003 rocks as a server, cluster platform.
30 posted on 01/30/2006 12:08:08 PM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: goldstategop
Which is yet another reason to keep using XP. No doubt they'll issue a new version of Office that won't run on XP to force the O/S upgrade. Hell, I'm still using Office 2000 on XP; it does everything I need to do.
31 posted on 01/30/2006 12:12:03 PM PST by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: adorno

There's more to it than that. Hackers also write viruses for bragging rights, and the fact is, OS X's UNIX roots make it much more difficult to crack than MS software.

Script Kiddies can write viruses for Windows, but you have to know your stuff to write a virus for OS X.


32 posted on 01/30/2006 12:13:43 PM PST by frgoff
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To: Red Badger
If you make the OS bullet-proof you don't need anti-virus protection in the first place...........
Ain't no such thing and never will be.

33 posted on 01/30/2006 12:14:54 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: ShadowAce

I'm sticking with XP. I have hardware that's good enough for it and I know how to protect-->>
antivirus
windows update
antispyware
use FireFox a lot

-->> my computer. I don't need any hand holding. But that's me. Doubtful-newbies, these people should buy an Apple or a Linux computer (cheap at Walmart_on_line) if they are worried about security. Or get solid advice on how to protect their computer though Vista just might make this a no-brainer


34 posted on 01/30/2006 12:15:18 PM PST by dennisw ("What one man can do another can do" - The Edge)
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To: Lx
I doubt Vista is going to be that good considering all the DRM that is going into it.

See post 13.

35 posted on 01/30/2006 12:17:36 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Lx
Funny you should ask. I'm still running Office 2000 and the only addition I made is Office's 2003 One Note. But what I have is fine and there's no need for the latest and greatest in software just to keep up with the Joneses.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

36 posted on 01/30/2006 12:18:27 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Its the proprietary licensing scheme I object to. Its a milk cow for the MPAA and RIAA and we can watch movies and listen to songs when they allow us to. If we have other ideas, fudgitboutit.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

37 posted on 01/30/2006 12:20:26 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
Maybe not. But I am not even running anti-virus software in Mac OSX and I don't intend to in Linux. There's nothing that can harm the computer or mess up critical files.?

OS-X and Linux combined are still minor players in the PC/Computer world. If they were to become large playes, then you would see them being attacked as often as MS. Protection through obscurity works well. If Linux wer to garner just 20% of the PC market, then it would be worthwhile for hackers and virus-writers to bother with it. As of now, it ain't worth the malware writers time. And, you think ther's nothing that can harm the computer or your critical files? Don't count on it.
38 posted on 01/30/2006 12:21:18 PM PST by adorno
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To: Red Badger

Simply put, there is no "bullet-proof" OS. If you think you have a bullet-proof OS then I invite you to keep on running it without any AV. All software is manmade and is therefore flawed. It is impossible to account for everything that could be attacked within a system.


39 posted on 01/30/2006 12:23:49 PM PST by RJS1950 (The rats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: frgoff
Script Kiddies can write viruses for Windows, but you have to know your stuff to write a virus for OS X.

Sounds like built in security right there.

If you make the O/S hard to write software for, then who is going to want it in the first place. If scripting or simple software is not possible with the O/S it will remain as a minor player. And minor players tend to ramain secure through obscurity.
40 posted on 01/30/2006 12:28:27 PM PST by adorno
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To: DallasMike
But they (MS) could at least TRY............
41 posted on 01/30/2006 12:34:09 PM PST by Red Badger (...I will bless them that bless thee and those who curse thee I will turn into Liberals..........)
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To: goldstategop
Its the proprietary licensing scheme I object to. Its a milk cow for the MPAA and RIAA and we can watch movies and listen to songs when they allow us to.

You need to read this thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1567248/posts The RIAA and MPAA have lost a lot of their power in D.C. And since DRM is not going to be mandated by law, there will be alternatives.

42 posted on 01/30/2006 12:34:37 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: adorno

I said you have to know your stuff to write a virus, not a program. There is a difference. A virus is intended to subvert the OS, a program is intended to cooperate with the OS.

Writing software for OS X is incredibly simple.


43 posted on 01/30/2006 12:35:10 PM PST by frgoff
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To: ShadowAce
Microsoft will omit anti-virus protection in Vista, the next version of Windows,

Well thank God. An OS should have an integral AV client.

44 posted on 01/30/2006 12:54:09 PM PST by Centurion2000 ("Testosterone doesn't have to rule the world," - Az Democrat legislative idiot)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
When a major virus/spyware hits Vista, MS's Vista DRM policy will prevent third party patching to protect viruses/spyware for at least month if not longer, compared to the day or two it takes for anti-virus/anti-spyware programers to catch up and create patches for their programs.

Oh, please. When was the last virus that exploited a hole in a kernel mode driver?

45 posted on 01/30/2006 1:08:35 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Bedfellow, read what I post before you reply, I wasn't even talking about kernel mode drivers, I was talking about how third party programs and third party drivers in how slow responses for patching anti-virus/anti-spyware programs will be under Vista's, review all third party drivers, DRM policy.
46 posted on 01/30/2006 1:14:51 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Paul C. Jesup

And I'm asking you when was the last time a virus exploited a hole in a driver at all. If the answer is "never" (hint: it is), then the "problem" you're in such a panic about simply doesn't exist. There's no reason that software patches will be slowed by driver management, and drivers themselves are not a vector for virus infection.


47 posted on 01/30/2006 1:21:51 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow
And I'm asking you when was the last time a virus exploited a hole in a driver at all.

You were asking about kernel mode drivers, not just drivers in general. Nice trick question. I have no time for your foolishness. But about drivers in general, drivers are parts of programs and as such some drivers can be exploited with viruses and spyware.

This always goes back to "no matter how well you build a lock, someone will figure out how to open it without the key".

48 posted on 01/30/2006 1:32:46 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Paul C. Jesup
You were asking about kernel mode drivers, not just drivers in general.

I did you a favor by opening it up to any drivers that have ever been exploited by viruses. Nevertheless, only kernel mode drivers will require a signature - userland drivers can still be installed without one, and require no review, hence no delay in the off chance one becomes a virus vector.

Look, my man - there's plenty to criticize MS for on the security front, but this thing you've got here just isn't one of them. I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about here.

49 posted on 01/30/2006 1:37:31 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Nevertheless, only kernel mode drivers will require a signature

Wrong, MS wants to approve every third party driver that goes onto Vista.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1567076/posts

From the first paragraph of that thread: in a new announcement, the company pledged to make it impossible to load any unapproved drivers under Vista.

50 posted on 01/30/2006 1:42:39 PM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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