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New Orleans 'risks extinction'
BBC ^ | 2 February 2006 | Helen Lambourne

Posted on 02/02/2006 10:08:40 AM PST by ncountylee

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To: ericthecurdog

Sounds like you know a little about that unique New Orleans perspective.

I'd bet that most of the folks who wanna let NOLA go back to the swamp never danced with those oil-money Texas beauties at three in the morning at Jimmy's with Marcia Ball just pounding the keys and the whole place is jumpin' and two more days of Jazzfest to go.

It can get in your blood.


101 posted on 02/02/2006 12:26:03 PM PST by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: SF Republican
I think every city that is built below sea level should probably become extinct.

So you want to damage the Israeli economy, and destroy much of the Netherlands? Any other groups you don't like?

102 posted on 02/02/2006 12:34:58 PM PST by PAR35
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To: ncountylee
Let New Orleans die.

Bulldoze what's left and let it become wetlands again. Move upstate and build "New-new-Orleans" on high ground. Or just move to Texas or Mississippi and be done with it.
103 posted on 02/02/2006 12:36:20 PM PST by DesScorp
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To: alarm rider

You're right about alot of things. And I'm not going to assume the position of defending everything New Orleans ever was and is.

But it's still there. Alot of neighborhoods aren't. Maybe some of them shouldn't get rebuilt. But you're not going to tear down the office buildings in the CBD, or the uptown mansions, or Tulane University, and you need a port somewhere and you need to service the gulf oil and fishing industries and that's always gonna be right up close to the water and it's in a hurricane zone and you can't change that.

So I'm finding a real shortage of good ideas about fixing and helping and I'm fresh out myself, but I know that letting New Orleans go back to the swamp is not a viable one.

So we're really talking, whether we know it or not, about how much money and where does it come from.


104 posted on 02/02/2006 12:36:22 PM PST by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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Comment #105 Removed by Moderator

To: bayourant
The ignorance of Freepers on Louisiana questions is again on display.

It's not the first time G-d took down a city for the sin within it.

I see no need to spend my money to rebuild what G-d decided to destroy. He's the boss of me, right?

106 posted on 02/02/2006 12:38:09 PM PST by Glenn (What I've dared, I've willed; and what I've willed, I'll do!)
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To: swain_forkbeard
I think the process of rebuilding NOLA needs three phases.

1) Triage - figure out the viable parts and the parts that should not be reclaimed.

2) - built true Cat 3 protection. Cat 5 I think is not viable, because Cat 5 is open-ended. Rebuild a much smaller NOLA.

Start the process of creating a port up where the Atchafalaya diverts off the Mississippi, with a canal that goes to the Gulf. Build rail links between NOLA and that port. Over the next 50 years, development will gradually shift to that new port.

107 posted on 02/02/2006 12:39:53 PM PST by dirtboy (My new years resolution is to quit using taglines...)
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To: SF Republican

I don't want to sound mean, and I've been through the amazing Hugo, but New Orleans is the blueprint for the paradise that can come about without God, the secular progressive worker's paradise. These monstrous schemes always fail soon or late. The hurricane just hastened the inevitable. That said, I wish no malice to those who have been battered by the forces of nature. A new attitude, along with reinforced levees, may help the city to revive. The culture of envy must end.


108 posted on 02/02/2006 12:45:32 PM PST by ashtanga
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To: Glenn
It's not the first time G-d took down a city for the sin within it.

Just out of curiosity, were the houses in Oklahoma destroyed by wildfires a couple months ago taken down because of the sin within them?

109 posted on 02/02/2006 12:46:43 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: swain_forkbeard
I'd bet that most of the folks who wanna let NOLA go back to the swamp never danced with those oil-money Texas beauties at three in the morning at Jimmy's with Marcia Ball just pounding the keys and the whole place is jumpin' and two more days of Jazzfest to go. It can get in your blood.

Hell, I never came anywhere near doing anything THAT cool in NOLA and it's in my blood. I bet you've got some stories.

110 posted on 02/02/2006 12:49:37 PM PST by ericthecurdog (The chief export of Chuck Norris is pain.)
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To: Glenn

Shall we conclude that Slidell, Bay St. Louis, Pass Christian, and Biloxi were also "taken down" for the "sin within"?

Seems not to have been nearly as thorough a job as back in the old days of Sodom etc. Very few sinners actually died.

Also, no need to spend money to make well those who the A******y decided to sicken. No need to hostpitalize the injured, feed the starving, or, for that matter, punish the criminals.

Oh, I get it. You're joking, right?


111 posted on 02/02/2006 12:49:44 PM PST by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: Buggman
Because we need a major port at the base of the Mississippi to provide a transfer point between ocean-going and river-going traffic, or all those red states in the middle of the Union starve economically.

In case you haven't noticed ports have become highly automated operations directly employing few people compared to, say, 100 years ago; New Orleans began as a port, but before Katrina only a tiny, tiny fraction of the population was either working for the port or working to support the people of the port.

You don't need a metropolis to operate the Port of New Orleans.

112 posted on 02/02/2006 12:50:51 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: DesScorp
Then get a damn transfusion and be done with it. NO was a rotting sh*thole. Let it die.

Spoken like a true knuckle-dragging moron. Tell me, does stupidity hurt?

113 posted on 02/02/2006 12:55:38 PM PST by ericthecurdog (The chief export of Chuck Norris is pain.)
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To: swain_forkbeard

"So we're really talking, whether we know it or not, about how much money and where does it come from."

Yep, that's exactly correct, and my point is just that NO cannot nor will it be what it was before the hurricane. So, why not use a little common sense and a little less emotion and find a reasonable answer.

I do not support bull-dozing, etc. What I do support is a clear, precise plan that makes the best out of what is left. The port is necessary, but modern ports do not require great numbers of people to run them. What is the point of rebuilding levees and canals if a new improved port can be constructed?

And, if the office buildings are not required due to a diminished population and lack of business, then why would a business choose to remain in NO?

I could give a flip about the mansions, if the owners can maintain them and they are not subject to flooding, then so what?

The point here is that something approaching sanity, on both side here needs to be found and acted upon. Pouring billions and billions of dollars into rebuilding is a fool's game IMO.


114 posted on 02/02/2006 1:02:36 PM PST by alarm rider (Irritating leftists as often as is humanly possible....)
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To: swain_forkbeard
Oh, I get it. You're joking, right?

Yes. I'm joking. I'm agnostic. I simply tire of all the justifications for throwing good money after bad unless there is some sincerety in the process.

115 posted on 02/02/2006 1:04:21 PM PST by Glenn (What I've dared, I've willed; and what I've willed, I'll do!)
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To: ericthecurdog
My 'bruddah' is 256th... he said the same thing. He got back from Iraq just in time to evacuate from Katrina. Now he's the liaison between FEMA, the National Guard and the communities in his part of SW LA. Cajuns are working their ass off to get back to normal in that part of the State. I will say that I wish I felt like more was being done by the majority of displaced 'Yats' (I know you're from there, and I hate to say that, but it's true).

The uninformed carping of many around FR on this issue is just that; uninformed carping. I've just learned to ignore it. You cannot bring reason into their life, no matter how much you try, and New Orleans, along with the rest of the Gulf Coast, is going to survive this whether they want it to or not. So what is the point? Just crack an Abita, put on some Bosoleil, and ignore these a**holes.

Well said. Too bad they don't spend time showing the hard work being done here either in the SWLA area. We could sway the thinking of a lot of people if they would talk to Randy Roach, the Lake Charles mayor or any of the local leaders here. They are the anti-Nagin.

116 posted on 02/02/2006 1:09:15 PM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: Texas Mom

"Somebody needs to tell the mayor of Chocolate City to get the chocolate chips off their butts and stop waiting for the caramels to rebuild their houses and the vanilla's to pay for them."


The chocolate chips are to busy living in nice hotels all over the US, or on cruise ships at government expense.
They will chocolate milk this as long as they can.


117 posted on 02/02/2006 1:12:59 PM PST by AlexW (Reporting from Bratislava, Slovakia)
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To: alarm rider

Many poeple with deep feelings for and strong connections to the city hope it comes back smaller, and different, and better. That is my hope.

And thanks for being a voice of reason.


118 posted on 02/02/2006 1:14:33 PM PST by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: CajunConservative

If someone was thinking in Baton Rouge we would get some of these servicemen on National tv. Also get people like Roach on there too.


119 posted on 02/02/2006 1:14:51 PM PST by bayourant
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To: bayourant

Again it amazes me that in area that actually produced Catholics and Catholic politicians that were actually pro life(landrieus being an exception she aint even Catholic now I hear) and a pretty good conservative hard working conservative class of people that they get dished. Heck I even stick up for some ninth ward folks it wasnt all welfare idiots. Again people need to realize that there was more to NOLA and beyond than their experience on Bourbon Street and Girls gone wild videos they view


120 posted on 02/02/2006 1:19:09 PM PST by bayourant
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To: ncountylee
The Mississippi River had been controlled over the years to stop the annual floods with hundreds of miles of levees and dams. As a result sediments that were naturally brought down to replenish the land, were cut off. Gradually Louisiana started to lose its coast and today it has the highest rate of coastal land loss in North America. An area the size of Wembley stadium is lost to the sea every 20 minutes. On another thread, the loss of land was blamed on Big Oil. Ha.
121 posted on 02/02/2006 1:23:32 PM PST by wouldntbprudent (If you can: Contribute more (babies) to the next generation of God-fearing American Patriots!)
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To: SF Republican
I probably should not have made that sound so harsh; my point is building against nature is IMHO not too smart.

So if the big one takes out San Francisco it will be okay to totally abandon the place?

122 posted on 02/02/2006 1:24:18 PM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: wouldntbprudent

The problem is two fold. The sediment from the river is one thing. But also in the marshland huge areas were cut to make sort of river highways for oild exploration. This compunded the problem and is a part of it.


123 posted on 02/02/2006 1:25:31 PM PST by bayourant
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To: bayourant
We are not unprepared to make a few changes but really are sorry if we are not prepared to sit by while most of the State below I-10 becomes a swamp

I applaud you for that! While admitting I don't know enough about Louisiana to have a solid view of what should be done, what I do know is that the environmental radicals are all in favor of turning vast swaths of the entire country back into wilderness. They probably see Katrina as an opportunity to "re-wild" LA and MS, and I'd hate to see them get a victory.

I hear the 'urban planners' making plans for your cities, and I just cringe. Th "Greenways" that are being promoted around the country are intended (but the groups that lobby for them) to be the start of 'connections' between 'bioreserves' where all animal life will be protected. I've been to re-wilding conferences and meetings, and I guarantee those people are rubbing their hands with glee at making NO into their vision of what an American city should be - a limited footprint high density human habitation area with green corridors that will all the animals from the surrounding wildlands to pass through unimpeded. Don't let them take control! Let Capitalism lead the way in providing the kind of city people want when they vote with their dollars.

124 posted on 02/02/2006 1:26:47 PM PST by Kay Ludlow (Free market, but cautious about what I support with my dollars)
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To: dirtboy

What would happen if the levees were built to supposed Cat 5 strength, a Cat 5 hit, and it turns out the calculations were wrong again?>>>>>>>>>>>

Well Bush will just have to get there before the storm hits with some real assistance and move everyone to a safe place and then we build new levees that will withstand a category umpteen storm surge. There is plenty of money to take care of all this, all you have to do is totally disband our national defenses and put the soldiers, sailors, airmen, whatever to work with shovels and and and, noooooo, don't stick that needle in my arm, turn me loose, aaaaarrrrrggghhh.


125 posted on 02/02/2006 1:27:13 PM PST by RipSawyer (Acceptance of irrational thinking is expanding exponentiallly.)
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To: bayourant
The ignorance of Freepers on Louisiana questions is again on display.

If the citizens of Louisiana would like to cover future insurance bills for NO - drop out of the federally insured flood programs -- then you can rebuilt the city forever. On my dime, I'm not interested. And yeah, that goes the same for folks who build directly on the beach and expect me to cover redecorating costs every 6 years. In case you think I live in Iowa, my yard ends at a tidal stream... I'm 12 feet above sea level this area hasn't flooded in at least 80 years. If it started flooding every few years, I would not expect you to rebuild my home indefinitely. It's time for the folks in NO to cut their losses... Other options would be to require that new homes be built on stilts. Or the land be built up to a safe height.

The "we want the world to be the way it was before" isn't good enough. Tell me where I'm wrong.

126 posted on 02/02/2006 1:27:29 PM PST by GOPJ (President Bush to Democrats: "Hindsight is not wisdom. Second-guessing is not strategy")
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To: bayourant

I am convinced that this attack on Louisiana is a sly attempt to make sure the greatest Football Team in the Nation(The LSU Fighting Tigers) will lose their recruiting base(because literally the recruiting base will be under water) and not threaten other freepers football teams. Ok Calif freeper people I ask forgivness USC does not suck

YEs trying to inject a little humor here


127 posted on 02/02/2006 1:28:56 PM PST by bayourant
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To: Glenn

The thing is He didn't destroy the French Quarter and Bourbon Street, you know where all the sinful activities happen. I find it ironic though that He did destroy a bunch of Baptist Churches and greatly damaged the seminary. The strippers were ready to go back to work as soon as they saw all those military guys.

If God had smited the city He would have included Bourbon Street. It's still standing and in business.


128 posted on 02/02/2006 1:29:37 PM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: ncountylee

The premise of this article is wrong. N.O. was built originally on land above sea level. Jackson Square, the Quarter, uptown, are all above sea level. The storm surge got 'em. The problem is the areas below sea level, like the Ninth Ward, where the city later expanded. The real issue is whether to rebuild there.


129 posted on 02/02/2006 1:35:18 PM PST by colorado tanker (We need more "chicken-bleep Democrats" in the Senate!)
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To: GOPJ

gopj we are not talking about living off the Federal Dime forever here. LEts look at the engineering solutions before we eliminate insurance programs for coastal residents. I swear this is not 19th century Russian where all us folks on the Coast are Serfs that produce the resources for the rest of the folks. I suppose we can all abandon the coast and the industries. I guess we could bus in tons of illegal immigrants to work in the oil industry. Their families are in Mexico so there will be no needs for communities churches etc. Of course all the benifit of those salaries go to Mexico so thats a downside. As to the fishing Industry perhaps we can get the Japanese to come in in 6 month trips and fish our waters. Again alleviating the need for things called communties. The port and the Mississippi River well If yall figure out a way to move that to houston let me know.


130 posted on 02/02/2006 1:35:30 PM PST by bayourant
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To: ncountylee
The biggest problem with New Orleans is not the elevation or location, it is the pinheads that are in charge. For a long, long time, being a member of the Levee Board meant that you collected pay for doing nothing, and had a license to steal (as all politicians in Louisiana seem to think they have). No real attention was paid to the levees, that was for the Army Corps of Engineers to worry about.

Besides, how could we make it without our "Chocolate" City?

131 posted on 02/02/2006 1:35:48 PM PST by The Sons of Liberty (Former SAC Trained Killer)
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To: CajunConservative
As a minor point of fact an earthquake and fire did take out San Francisco; the city rebuilt itself without one thin dime from the US Govt taxpayers. Secondly, it is my understanding we are not totally abandoning New Orleans, nor would that be my suggestion. Finally San Francisco is built above sea level.
132 posted on 02/02/2006 1:37:48 PM PST by SF Republican
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To: CajunConservative

Exactly for a city its size its one of the most religious cities in the country. Esp in the surrounding area. Good gosh for all the "sin" in New Orleans they didnt even have good Strip Bars. you have to go to Memphis, Dallas, or Houston for that


133 posted on 02/02/2006 1:38:28 PM PST by bayourant
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To: SF Republican

ok are you telling me that you wish to stand by the fact that San Franscico back then did notrecieved not one thin dime of Federal help or do you want to continue to embrace this urban legend


134 posted on 02/02/2006 1:40:06 PM PST by bayourant
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To: PAR35

I apologize for making that sound harsh, I should have typed would become extinct, not should. I do not hate Israel or the Netherlands or even New Orleans, my point which was poorly made, was it is not in my opinion a smart move to build or rebuild below sea level.


135 posted on 02/02/2006 1:41:00 PM PST by SF Republican
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To: bayourant
I do not understand, in the first line you say it is fact, the third line says it is legend? You continue to desire to dispense knowledge today, how much did SF receive in subsidies and grants for the 1906 earthquake?
136 posted on 02/02/2006 1:43:54 PM PST by SF Republican
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To: bayourant
Look, what's wrong with my suggestion that certain areas of the city be rebuilt on stilts? We have that requirement in some areas of Florida -- new construction has to be above a certain sea level. What's the problem with that?

Rebuilding's fine if there's some thought put into it.

What does better building codes have to do with immigrants in the oil industry or Mexican fishermen? Did I hit a nerve? If so, many apologies...

137 posted on 02/02/2006 1:44:31 PM PST by GOPJ (President Bush to Democrats: "Hindsight is not wisdom. Second-guessing is not strategy")
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To: ncountylee
its very existence seemed proof of the triumph of engineering over nature

Actually a Yamaha V-Max is proof of the triumph of engineering over nature.

138 posted on 02/02/2006 1:45:56 PM PST by Hardastarboard (HEY - Billy Joe! You ARE an American Idiot!)
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To: SF Republican

I have read reports that the Federal help for San fran during its time of need then was tremedous. However lets face facts times have changed. after WWii for good or bad the role of the Federal GOvt changed. TO put in mildly our economy changed. We became the economic power house of the world. AS a part of these Louisian made and still makes its contribution. IF today for instance a massive diaster happened in California my response would not be to go back to a the pre war war II style of Fedral assistance. This would make no sense since California taken by itself is the 7th largest economy in the World. If New York for instance was hit by a dirty bomb and made huge parts not safe to work in it would be insane to allow purely free enterprise to correct the problems. Louisiana folks would be the first in bith instances to support anything nescessay to make sure those areas got back on their feet. The point being there are economic factors that do not allow a pure economic laize Faire Economic approach that were not present in 1907


139 posted on 02/02/2006 1:50:30 PM PST by bayourant
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To: bayourant; SF Republican
ok are you telling me that you wish to stand by the fact that San Franscico back then did not receive not one thin dime of Federal help or do you want to continue to embrace this urban legend

If San Francisco rebuilt buildings that couldn't withstand a small earthquake I wouldn't want to pay to rebuilt there either. But SF is doing what they can to design buildings that can withstand powerful earthquakes. NO needs to do the same about flooding. Move the city up, or the buildings up, or something. Just to "rebuilt" is nuts.

140 posted on 02/02/2006 1:50:50 PM PST by GOPJ (President Bush to Democrats: "Hindsight is not wisdom. Second-guessing is not strategy")
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To: GOPJ
NO needs to do the same about flooding. Move the city up, or the buildings up, or something. Just to "rebuilt" is nuts.

They are as soon as the elevation requirements are decided on. That is why homeowners are in limbo right now. Lower Cameron parish is being rebuilt totally different, that is if the locals don't throw FEMA to the gators.

141 posted on 02/02/2006 1:56:53 PM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: bayourant

And by the way since this whole discussion has got me in an uproar let me say this. We are not Liberia here. Aid to us should not be conditioned on Regime change as some have put it. I am sure that that the liberal programs other states have and fund because they can do so because my tax dollars fund other essential services in your State doesnt mean I have a right to say no aid unless you get rid of yalls elected officials. For instance if a major disaster hit San Franscisco(not to pick on it) I dont think it would be morally right to withold aid untill the good citizens of Califoornia got rid of their horrible legislature and removed Nancy Peliosi from office. "Regime change will occur" but it will occur at the next election. We cannot wait two years and not start solving the problems here. Hurricane season will not wait for the next election


142 posted on 02/02/2006 1:57:04 PM PST by bayourant
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To: GOPJ
If San Francisco rebuilt buildings that couldn't withstand a small earthquake I wouldn't want to pay to rebuilt there either. But SF is doing what they can to design buildings that can withstand powerful earthquakes. NO needs to do the same about flooding. Move the city up, or the buildings up, or something. Just to "rebuilt" is nuts.

That is the general recommendation of those vested with the rebuilding process.

143 posted on 02/02/2006 1:58:26 PM PST by bigeasy_70118
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To: GOPJ

We are not just rebuilding it. Again the process is occuring. But the govt has no power to decide by executive fiat major decisions that have the result of people being deprived of their property. Its irrating yes. Its cumbersome yes. But its reality. This is not 1866 well the State of Louisiana is under Federal Reconstruction by Military Governors and the normal civil laws dont apply


144 posted on 02/02/2006 2:00:20 PM PST by bayourant
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To: bayourant

My Maternal Grandfather was from New Orleans, my Mother was from Lake Charles and I'm originally from Beaumont so I love South Louisiana, it's people and it's Culture. Some of the best times in my life have been in N.O. and S. La.
I agree that the problems of Coastal erosion are man made.
What about removing the levees south of N.O.? How much would that aleviate the erosion problem?
A retainer wall between Miss. and Texas is so extreme as to be ridiculous. Besides, would that not abandon everything south of the barrier?
I also agree that the most flood prone areas of N.O. should be abandoned. This will be hard to get done because the main objective of both Nagin and Blanco is to repack the ninth and other flood prone areas with Black Democrat voters, not the overall good of the City and area.
Give us a Laundry List of your proposals and their costs (keeping the costs to a reasonable amount that will have a chance of being approved by Congress).


145 posted on 02/02/2006 2:03:23 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: ericthecurdog
"Spoken like a true knuckle-dragging moron. Tell me, does stupidity hurt?"

Says the man defending the concept of a city below sea level surrounded by three huge bodies of water, and sinking further every year.

Maybe Austin would be the place for you, eh?
146 posted on 02/02/2006 2:07:23 PM PST by DesScorp
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To: BnBlFlag

Cool ok thank you for your reason. YOur the second person thats has mentioned some referring to a retaiing wall today. I think this refers to the barrier Islands, Again I dont know who was explaing this concept but it would not be some continuous wall running across the Coast. One thing I would say as to the Ninth ward. Nagin is to say the least an confusing guy. Its not all clear to me at this point that this is the plan. In fact there was a general uproar because after the Hurricane he was meeting and still meeting with people in the power group he has formed that seem to have the opposite idea. Nagin was elected largely with the help of White Voters. OF course he has made the republican lakeview area so mad he might try to change tactics. I give a list in the next post


147 posted on 02/02/2006 2:09:16 PM PST by bayourant
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To: Strategerist
"You don't need a metropolis to operate the Port of New Orleans."

You don't neccessarily need a Port of New Orleans at all. NO was dominant because of river travel for goods. That's been replaced by air, truck, and rail now. You could easily redirect almost all of the traffic to other ports. Houston, Mobile, and Tampa could take the traffic easily.
148 posted on 02/02/2006 2:11:25 PM PST by DesScorp
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To: bayourant
The problem in large part is Coastal erosion which can be fixed.

Mother Nature will always win. Mother Nature has always won. Man can either "mitigate", "delay" or "adapt" -- but man cannot stop geological change.

Those who feel man can control nature are also the same group who blame mankind for "environmental change". Left to it's own devices, completely absent the effects of man, the earth will still transform and change. Humans, by nature, are very conceited and shortsighted. Man only looks at things in terms of 100's of years. The earth, on the other hand, operates on timescales of 1000's, 10,000's and 1,000,000's of years and has no capacity for conceit. Any impact man creates on his small slice of the environment today is meaningless to the earth's timeless cycle of change. New Orleans is only a minuscule speck in the earth's history.

149 posted on 02/02/2006 2:11:35 PM PST by been_lurking
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To: bayourant
We cannot wait two years and not start solving the problems here.

So solve them. What are you waiting for? What is it you need? As long as you get food to eat and water to drink from the government, rebuild using the sweat of your brow. You owe it to the taxpayers.

And I mean "you" collectively. Not personally.

150 posted on 02/02/2006 2:15:28 PM PST by Glenn (What I've dared, I've willed; and what I've willed, I'll do!)
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