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Let people defend themselves within the law
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 02/03/06 | DAVE WORKMAN

Posted on 02/05/2006 7:24:42 PM PST by neverdem

Professional doomsayers are preaching paranoia in Georgia because lawmakers are considering a so-called "stand your ground" law that expands and protects an individual's right of self-defense.

Predictably, opponents are conducting a campaign of hysteria. In their latest tirade against such legislation, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence warns: "The Shoot First legislation is an invitation to reckless use of guns in the streets of our cities and towns."

To paraphrase a famous movie line: "Show me the bodies." Let's see the stacks of corpses in neighboring Florida, where a similar law was passed last year. Where are the mass graves in Washington state, where "no duty to retreat" is so well established that it has been affirmed by at least two state Supreme Court rulings in recent years?

Opponents are falling back on very tired, thoroughly discredited rhetoric about "Wild West" violence. Historian and career journalist Richard Shenkman, author of "Legends, Lies and Cherished Myths of American History," wrote that in 1878 — the heyday of cattle drive boomtowns — Dodge City recorded just five homicides. In a February 2004 essay, Colorado writer Ryan McMaken noted that "All the big cattle towns of Kansas combined saw a total of 45 murders during the period of 1870-1885. Dodge City alone saw 15 people die violently from 1876-1885, an average of 1.5 per year." Wouldn't it be nice if Atlanta's streets were that safe?

Why shouldn't law-abiding citizens, who are in a public place where they have an absolute right to be, not be allowed — make that not be expected — to defend themselves and others from vicious criminal attack? This "duty to retreat" philosophy only encourages predatory criminals who will eagerly shoot, stab or club a victim from behind when they try to run away.

Self-defense is not taking the law into your own hands. Rather, it is acting within the law in the face of imminent and unavoidable danger of grave bodily harm or death. Arguing otherwise, with unsustainable predictions of bloody lawlessness, will ultimately prove just how wrong the hysteria merchants have been.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Georgia
KEYWORDS: banglist
NRA pushes ‘don’t retreat’
1 posted on 02/05/2006 7:24:44 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the post. I'm happy Georgia is taking this step and hope it gets approved. As sure that Atlanta will opt out and bring forth even tougher laws then theu have currently.


2 posted on 02/05/2006 7:30:43 PM PST by moonman
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To: neverdem

I think its is great. People shouldn't have to worry that if they stand their ground to protect themselves, their family, or their property that they might end up in jail. People used to understand that a person had a basic right to defend themselves today it seems it is a basic right to be victimized .


3 posted on 02/05/2006 7:34:00 PM PST by Ma3lst0rm (Assumptions are often like jumping out of a plane with a backpack while thinking it is a parachute.)
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To: neverdem

4 posted on 02/05/2006 7:35:53 PM PST by devolve (<-- (-in a manner reminiscent of Senator Gasbag F. Kohnman-)
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To: neverdem

"The Shoot First legislation is an invitation to reckless use of guns in the streets of our cities and towns"

Only if your a bad guy.


5 posted on 02/05/2006 7:37:38 PM PST by Lancer_N3502A
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To: El Gato; Shooter 2.5; TEXASPROUD

Does our state have this law already ?


6 posted on 02/05/2006 7:40:15 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: Squantos
I'd be willing to bet that a State that allows shooting to protect property has a law that says you don't have to flee from someone attacking you.

I'm pretty sure it's genetic in Texans.

L

7 posted on 02/05/2006 7:43:56 PM PST by Lurker (In God I trust. Everybody else shows me their hands.)
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To: Squantos; Lurker; Joe Brower

Lurker has a point. If you can shoot the repo man, I don't think you need to say much more.


8 posted on 02/05/2006 8:00:59 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Lurker

Training "taught" in my last CHL class here stated ya retreat if at all possible before using deadly force when your off your property. That was a few years ago. I agree with your logic yet it ain't worth a guess as ya well know.....

Off to the salt mine !

Stay safe !


9 posted on 02/05/2006 8:02:49 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: Squantos
The best course of action is to be very polite to the investigating officer. That means make sure he only has to listen to one story. Namely yours.

Mama always taught me to be polite.

L

10 posted on 02/05/2006 8:08:02 PM PST by Lurker (In God I trust. Everybody else shows me their hands.)
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To: neverdem

That's on your property ....this stand your ground law is about off your own property. Use of deadly force is nothing to "bet" on.......

But I understand what your suggesting.....late ya'll ...gotta go !


11 posted on 02/05/2006 8:08:50 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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To: Squantos

I have a real problem with these yahoos trying to impose "duty to retreat", which is really the laws encouraging people to be cowards and wussies.

The fact is that a good citizen with a gun will give off a different vibe. They will be confident that they can defend themselves and will not be as obviously afraid.

It makes no sense to take weapons and the right to defend yourself away from law biding citizens leaving them helpless targets for the many armed criminals.


12 posted on 02/05/2006 8:54:15 PM PST by annelizly
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To: Squantos
Does our state have this law already

Not explicitly , but the justifications for use of deadly force contain only a few special cases which might imply that they only applied in your own residence. Here's the link to the section of Texas Law covering justification for use of deadly force, and force in general for that matter I see no "requirement to retreat", although there are some sections dealing with protection or recovery of property that do require a "other possible means" test, but that's more of a duty not to use deadly force after a crime has already been committed, not during the commission of the crime. WARNING, I'm not a lawyer...although my daughter and son-in-law are. Son-in-law, from New Jersey, was amazed at the state of Texas law when he took a continuing legal education course on "gun law", which included the use of deadly force statutes. (I've got the materials from the course now, but I already knew most of it, which also surprised, and impressed, my SIL. :) ) :

Texas Penal Code Chapter 9 PDF version Word version

As an example, the following deals with justification of the use of deadly force to protect property. Only the use of deadly force to prevent burglary and perhaps arson, imply events in or around a residence. (although arson could be of some Jihadie torching cars I suppose)

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

The other, and longer, sections deal with use of deadly force to protect life and limb, of self or others. You can also get to a hyper linked version by going to: and then searching on "deadly force" in the penal code section. That will allow you to easily check definitions of terms and references to other sections of the law.

13 posted on 02/05/2006 9:45:27 PM PST by El Gato
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To: All
Son-in-law, from New Jersey, was amazed at the state of Texas law when he took a continuing legal education course on "gun law"

Most of that material from that CLE is now online at Healy Law However it's not been updated since the change to the definition of traveling in the section concerning having a concealed handgun in a vehicle.

14 posted on 02/05/2006 9:48:46 PM PST by El Gato
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To: neverdem
If you can shoot the repo man, I don't think you need to say much more.

If you shoot the repo man, you're going to have convince the judge and jury that you really didn't know, nor should you have known, that it was the repo man. Not a good move.

But if someone is stealing your custom wheels, well blast away. That happened in Dallas some years ago. The guy even cut loose with an SKS into the vehicle of the thieves, killing at least one, and the shooter was no-billed by the grand jury. Similarly not quite so long ago a guy shot and killed a kid (about 13 IIRC) breaking into his chicken coop in San Antonio (yea, that kind of chickens). That defender spent no time in court either. The first instance was Black on Black, the second Brown on Brown. In each case the shooter was more or less middle ages and law abiding, while the shootee were Yutes rudely interrupted in their criminal endeavors.

15 posted on 02/05/2006 9:54:34 PM PST by El Gato
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To: Squantos
Training "taught" in my last CHL class here stated ya retreat if at all possible before using deadly force when your off your property. That was a few years ago. I agree with your logic yet it ain't worth a guess as ya well know...

Just because the law allows something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. The CHL instructors try to emphasize the "smart" course of action. They should however also teach what is legal and what is not, with the emphasis on the later of course.

16 posted on 02/05/2006 9:56:46 PM PST by El Gato
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To: El Gato
You can also get to a hyper linked version by going to:

Oops forgot the link http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/cgi-bin/cqcgi?CQ_STATCON_PROCESS_LOGIN=YES&CQ_USER_NAME=24.162.111.221&CQ_PASSWORD=statcon_pwd&CQ_LOGIN=YES In case that breaks, here it is again

17 posted on 02/05/2006 10:01:47 PM PST by El Gato
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To: El Gato

Thanks El Gato ........that was the key I was searching for .

Stay safe !


18 posted on 02/06/2006 6:33:03 AM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. ©)
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