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Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
CNSNews.com ^ | February 17, 2006 | Jeff Johnson

Posted on 02/17/2006 11:16:14 AM PST by SonofLiberty1

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers By Jeff Johnson CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.

"An investigation has revealed that you may have violated Title 18 U.S.C. Section 924(a)(1)(A), a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to five years," the letter began. The U.S. Code citation refers, in this instance, to knowingly making a false statement on the ATF Form 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," which is completed for each firearm purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL).

"The firearm that you purchased is being taken into ATF custody," the letter continued, citing no authority for the seizure.

Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) said the ATF letter and the reported interrogation of lawful gun buyers raise "serious questions."

"There's a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet, however, is not the way it ought to be done," Scott said. "You have to show probable cause and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without any indication of guilt."

John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

As Cybercast News Service initially reported, ATF agents working with as many as 400 state, county and city police officers near Richmond, Va., conducted so-called "residency checks" on individuals who purchased firearms from the Showmasters Gun Show Aug. 13 and 14, 2005. Uniformed officers went to the homes of prospective gun buyers, while they waited for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background checks to be completed and questioned family members and neighbors about the gun buyers' firearm purchasing habits.

In a subsequent report, Cybercast News Service detailed that ATF had conducted at least seven similar gun show "sting operations" targeting Richmond-area residents since July of 2004. ATF refused to discuss any of the operations with Cybercast News Service and refused to provide any documentation in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by the sponsors of the Richmond gun shows.

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"

Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to complete an ATF Form 4473 for each firearm sold through their business, in addition to any forms required by the state, county and/or city where they do business. Private sales between individuals, who are not engaged in the firearms trade as a business, are subject to no such federal recordkeeping requirements. Therefore a gun show purchaser could legally sell or even give the gun they purchased to someone else yet have no paperwork to meet the ATF's demand.

"You and I know that, but [a woman who bought a gun and then gave or sold it to someone else, both legally] probably doesn't," McComas told Cybercast News Service. "If she can't produce it, they arrest her for a straw purchase and her life turns into a living hell until she can prove otherwise. It's zero probable cause except for the fact that they thought it was a straw purchase because she was black and she was young and she was female."

McComas questioned not only the legality of the ATF tactics in Pittsburgh, but also the methodology.

"When I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. That's all we need,'" McComas continued. "Translation: Under 30 and black, period. That's all they were looking for. Anyone who meets those criteria, they're doing a follow-up on."

She said that, as in Richmond, agents in Pittsburgh were also engaged in activities that gun dealers believe were designed to discourage lawful purchases by minorities.

"Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their 'tail,' if you will, and just followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stand on one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for," McComas related. "It was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it other than the color of their skin."

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) said he had not intended to attend the hearing, which was held immediately after a subcommittee vote on an unrelated bill, but stayed because he was fascinated by the witnesses' testimony.

"These must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency," Delahunt said. "I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid.

"It's almost to the point that it's difficult to believe," he added. "I have never heard of an experience like the ones you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind-boggling."

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Feeney suggested that, since ATF had refused to comply with the Freedom of Information Act requests from the gun show promoters, the subcommittee should request the information they were seeking. Coble noted that such a letter had already been sent.

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office. ATF officials are expected to testify on the issues raised Wednesday in a second hearing scheduled for Feb. 28.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 109th; atf; bang; banglist; billofrights; bradywatch; constitutionlist; disbandthem; govwatch; jackbootedthugs; jbt; libertarians; unintendedcnsequncs; virginia
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To: SonofLiberty1

41 posted on 02/17/2006 11:58:31 AM PST by BulletBobCo
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To: SonofLiberty1
Friends, this is pure and simply governmental abuse. We cannot stand still for this. We must be prepared to exercise our Constitutional rights.

If each of us requests a copy of the records of the BATF covering these events, that should keep them busy for a while.

Otherwise, I would face arrest before I would answer any of the questions that were asked.

42 posted on 02/17/2006 11:58:40 AM PST by basil (Exercise your Second Amendment--buy another gun today!)
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To: SonofLiberty1
(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Meanwhile they will do absolutely nothing about the illegal aliens I have pointed to them acquiring arms via civil loopholes.

The ATF is run by a bunch of dopey Clinton lawyers

43 posted on 02/17/2006 11:59:19 AM PST by JudgemAll (Condemn me, make me naked and kill me, or be silent for ever on my gun ownership and law enforcement)
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To: SonofLiberty1
"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Just as soon as ATF agents are arrested and convicted for violating the civil rights of gun buyers, they'll start giving a rat's a$$. A law with no enforcement is no law. That goes double for laws meant to restrain law enforcement officers.

44 posted on 02/17/2006 12:03:20 PM PST by TChris ("Unless you act, you're going to lose your world." - Mark Steyn)
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To: sean327

ME TOO.........ARREST ME, AND THEN I WILL SUE, BIG TIME..............


45 posted on 02/17/2006 12:10:34 PM PST by joe fonebone (Woodstock defined the current crop of libs, but who cleaned up the mess they left?)
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To: ImpotentRage
I keep waiting for a Henry Bowman to surface.

Yep.

Or an Andrew Fletcher (Black Arrow). Or a Brad Fallon (Enemies: Foreign and Domestic). Or a Zoro...

Frog pots at a boil and the hogs are hungry.

Ain't no one wants to be the first gopher to pop his head above the berm.

46 posted on 02/17/2006 12:11:47 PM PST by Dead Corpse (I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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To: SonofLiberty1
...If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for...

That'd get them :-)

47 posted on 02/17/2006 12:11:57 PM PST by Condor51 (Better to fight for something than live for nothing - Gen. George S. Patton)
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To: dd5339; cavtrooper21

ping to read


48 posted on 02/17/2006 12:13:05 PM PST by Vic3O3 (Jeremiah 31:16-17 (KJV))
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To: All
I think that this committee needs to expand it's investigation/questioning to include other incidents. Other gun shows, John Glover, etc. need to be included to give the committee and Congress the full scope of the ineptitude/corruption of the BATFE. However, I think that "not listening" is more likely to happen.
49 posted on 02/17/2006 12:15:22 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: looscnnn
Of course they could also be sitting there saying "yeah right, a federal government agency would never do that".


50 posted on 02/17/2006 12:21:11 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: Fee
Dumb question. If a number of legally brought guns are getting into the hands of street criminals via straw buyers, how does one stop it?

That is easy; imprison the criminals. The problem is that we must properly define "criminal" to mean someone preying upon the life, liberty, or property of another individual. The reason that distinction must be made is for many liberals "criminal" is anyone who has a gun in the first place.

The premise that prior restraint should be used as a solution to the "gun problem" is fundamentally flawed. Some people advocate such views because of a lack of understanding of what it means to be an American; they don't want to be "free", they just want to be "safe" and foolishly believe granting government power can achieve this goal.

The remaining gun control advocates are racists who don't want black or Irish people to have guns. Historically, most gun control advocates fall into this latter category.

The solution to gun crime is pretty simple; it is the same solution to any other crime. Lock up the criminal and leave regular people alone to do whatever they want.

51 posted on 02/17/2006 12:22:40 PM PST by Technogeeb
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To: KarlInOhio

Just depends on where you shop in this country..... :>)


52 posted on 02/17/2006 12:25:37 PM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: Sybeck1
Sure do. If I possess a Class III and associated hardware, I can go along with that, however, anything else, forget it.

You ever notice just how people quit shooting one another and other crimes when the gov made it manitory to have a permit for a handgun??

53 posted on 02/17/2006 12:30:13 PM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: RSmithOpt

Ah, Class III, that's on my to-do list, just not quite there yet...


54 posted on 02/17/2006 12:35:53 PM PST by Sax
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To: yarddog

The only way I could possibly agree with such action if the BTAF agents knew in advance with proof positive that those buying the firearms were known convicted felons (whose statutes of limitations haven't run out), known gang members, especially MS-13, Russian, and Asian, and / or suspected foreign terrorists, or an illegal alien. Otherwise the BATFE agents need to be working the beat along our southern border towns and the border.


55 posted on 02/17/2006 12:36:25 PM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: Technogeeb
The problem is that we must properly define "criminal" to mean someone preying upon the life, liberty, or property of another individual.

You know that would never happen, first of all that would make government (on all levels) criminals. They aren't about to admit to that. Also with the right lawyers & judges you could get companies defined as that.

56 posted on 02/17/2006 12:36:48 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: RSmithOpt
You ever notice just how people quit shooting one another and other crimes when the gov made it manitory to have a permit for a handgun??

Huh, where? Some states require permits to carry concealed but not to own them.

57 posted on 02/17/2006 12:38:41 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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To: 2nd amendment mama
"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

Those b@stards!

Oh man, this is just p!ssing me off!...

58 posted on 02/17/2006 12:42:23 PM PST by Ladysmith ((NRA, SAS))
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To: looscnnn

I ask for forgiveness. I wasn't referring to ownership (my bad)....in a lot of states, a permit to buy a handgun from a dealer (gun shop)is required by law. Most people I know, have handguns that are inherited or bought from another well known individual. Always keep the serial numbers of all firearms safely stored separate in case they are ever stolen.


59 posted on 02/17/2006 12:46:09 PM PST by RSmithOpt (Liberalism: Highway to Hell)
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To: zeugma
I firmly believe that Bush and Company have bought into the "duck hunting" theory of the second amendment. He does not support the right that Madison penned.

Of course, he installed an AG that is anti military style weapon (AKA "Assault weapon"). Whether he was pandering (lying) or not, he did say he would sign the so called "Assault Weapon" ban if it came to his desk. It never did, thank God, but what if it had? Then the truth would have come out. Who was lying/pandering, Bush or the Bush backers that said that he is just saying that to get votes? One of the few good things to come out of Congress.

60 posted on 02/17/2006 12:46:17 PM PST by looscnnn ("Olestra (Olean) applications causes memory leaks" PC Confusious)
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