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Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth
Live Science ^ | 22 February 2006 | Bjorn Carey

Posted on 02/23/2006 6:41:48 AM PST by GreenFreeper

Chicken will grow teeth when pigs can fly.

Well, better start searching the skies for flying pork—scientists have discovered a mutant chicken with a full set of crocodile-like chompers.

The mutant chick, called Talpid, also had severe limb defects and died before hatching. It was discovered 50 years ago, but no one had ever examined its mouth until now.

The researchers recently created more Talpids by tweaking the genes of normal chickens to grow teeth.

"What we discovered were teeth similar to those of crocodiles—not surprising as birds are the closest living relatives of the reptile," said Mark Ferguson of the University of Manchester.

What happened

Around 300 million years ago, the ancestor of all modern vertebrates gave rise to two lineages, the mammals and the reptiles/birds. The oldest reptiles, such as crocodiles and alligators, had cone-shaped teeth. So did the earliest birds, called archosaurs.

Then, around 80 million years ago, modern birds emerged without teeth.

"So what would you expect bird teeth to look like? You would expect them to have teeth like their ancestors and their most closely related living relative," study co-author John Fallon of the University of Wisconsin told LiveScience.

Indeed, Talpid's teeth are conical, much like an archosaur's and closely resembling the teeth of a baby alligator or crocodile, Fallon said. If the chick survived, the teeth would most likely reabsorb into the mouth.

The archosaurs had mouths similar in shape to a reptile's. It turns out that developing a beak caused birds to lose their teeth.

"The reason that birds lost their teeth is that in forming a beak, the two tissues that ‘talk' to each other to make a tooth become separated," Fallon said. "They can't have the conversation to make a tooth. In the mutant, these tissues are brought back together."

Make more mutants

The finding made scientists curious whether healthy chickens still possessed the 80-million-year-old genetic pathway for producing teeth.

By making a few changes to the expression of certain molecules in the pathway, the researchers were able to induce tooth growth in normal developing chickens. These teeth also looked like reptilian teeth and shared many of the same genetic traits, supporting the scientists' hypothesis. None of these chickens were allowed to hatch.

This is all good news for hockey players. A direct application of this research, Ferguson said, could be re-growing teeth in people who have lost them through accident or disease.

The research is detailed this week in the journal Current Biology


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: chickens; ecology; ecoping; evocrevo; evolution
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Cool stuff!

Conical teeth in a Talpid mutant. Credit: Current Biology

Normal chick on the left, the talpid2 is on the right. The mutant jaw clearly shows teeth. Credit: John F. Fallon and Matthew P. Harris

1 posted on 02/23/2006 6:41:51 AM PST by GreenFreeper
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To: PatrickHenry; blam; Carry_Okie; Chanticleer; ClearCase_guy; cogitator; CollegeRepublican; ...
ECO-PING

FReepmail me to be added or removed to the ECO-PING list!

2 posted on 02/23/2006 6:43:02 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: GreenFreeper

Exqueeze me...but pointy beak ridges are not teeth.

Where are the roots? The Enamel, etc...


3 posted on 02/23/2006 6:44:30 AM PST by Paloma_55 (Which part of "Common Sense" do you not understand???)
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To: GreenFreeper

Yeah, but I hear they're pretty scarce.

4 posted on 02/23/2006 6:44:40 AM PST by martin_fierro (An Acquired Taste)
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To: GreenFreeper
Earlier thread on this: Mutant Chicken Grows Alligatorlike Teeth.
5 posted on 02/23/2006 6:45:00 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: GreenFreeper

We can expect the Sci-fi soon; Day of The Talpid. Featuring flocks of man eating chickens and a crowd surrounded and trapped at the local KFC.


6 posted on 02/23/2006 6:46:16 AM PST by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: theDentist

Toof Ping


7 posted on 02/23/2006 6:46:45 AM PST by martin_fierro (An Acquired Taste)
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To: ARCADIA

Chicken Train....


8 posted on 02/23/2006 6:48:51 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: PatrickHenry
The FR search really needs to be improved! Two separate title searches on teeth and chicken didn't result in anything of the sort. Oh well.


9 posted on 02/23/2006 6:52:15 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: GreenFreeper
O RLY??????


10 posted on 02/23/2006 6:53:09 AM PST by M203M4
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To: GreenFreeper

I'd like them to take a secretary bird ebyro, get it to grow teeth, than implant hoatzin bird genes to get it to grow wing claws and VOILA! Instant velociraptor!


11 posted on 02/23/2006 6:54:31 AM PST by RightWingAtheist (Creationism Is Not Conservative!)
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To: GreenFreeper
>> Conical teeth in a Talpid mutant.

"Conical teeth," my Aunt Harriet's butt! My niece did that watercolor when she was 6. She said it was a bunny wabbit. We taped it to the refrigerator.

12 posted on 02/23/2006 7:02:46 AM PST by T'wit (C'est une folie a nulle autre seconde, / De vouloir se meler a corriger le monde. -- Moliere)
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To: GreenFreeper

No one yet has mustered a reply that references hen's teeth?

Work with me, people!


13 posted on 02/23/2006 7:03:54 AM PST by jra
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To: GreenFreeper
That's Just a little weird!
14 posted on 02/23/2006 7:04:42 AM PST by Reaper FReeper (sometimes I wonder what ADD is, but than I find myself chasing a butterfly.)
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To: GreenFreeper

It's interesting, but what good are teeth if you eat nothing, but corn! I mean they never needed teeth before. Well I guess chickens need all the help they can get. they need to look like a Croc so they can swim to the nest and snatch up all the baby Crocs!!!! ARGGGGG.... I'm a little crazy.


15 posted on 02/23/2006 7:14:40 AM PST by Reaper FReeper (sometimes I wonder what ADD is, but than I find myself chasing a butterfly.)
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To: GreenFreeper

so how did the gizzard develop?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gizzard


16 posted on 02/23/2006 7:18:31 AM PST by PeterPrinciple (Seeking the truth here folks.)
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To: Reaper FReeper
I mean they never needed teeth before.

Maybe the are arming up for a revolt against the human oppressors.

17 posted on 02/23/2006 7:21:15 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: GreenFreeper

Interesting.


18 posted on 02/23/2006 7:27:00 AM PST by zakbrow (I'm running out of places to bury the bodies.)
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To: PeterPrinciple
so how did the gizzard develop?

I do not know for certain how they developed but I know several herbivorous dinosaurs were thought to have rudimentary gizzards. The evolution of a gizzard eliminated the need for sharp teeth and thus were lost. Birds are thought to be descended from herb. dinos so this makes quite a bit of sense to me.

19 posted on 02/23/2006 7:29:58 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: GreenFreeper

But that doesn't answer the age-old question: "Do chickens have lips?"


20 posted on 02/23/2006 7:30:47 AM PST by relictele
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To: Paloma_55
"Exqueeze me...but pointy beak ridges are not teeth.
Where are the roots? The Enamel, etc..."

You can clearly see evidence of a root system in the first photo. In the second photo, the tooth is a different color from the surrounding tissue, and has the shiny appearance of enamel.
21 posted on 02/23/2006 7:55:59 AM PST by Kirkwood ("When the s*** hits the fan, there is enough for everyone.")
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To: GreenFreeper; Aetius; Alamo-Girl; AndrewC; Asphalt; Aussie Dasher; Baraonda; BereanBrain; ...
"The mutant chick, called Talpid, also had severe limb defects and died before hatching."

Ah yes, another sucessful 'speciation.' (Not!)

The evos are on the run, and they will grasp at any straw! (remember the long-legged toads a few days ago? :o)

22 posted on 02/23/2006 8:11:46 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: GreenFreeper

"Maybe the are arming up for a revolt against the human oppressors."

Man, I hope not! I raise laying hens as an extra income source. My hens are treated better than some children are, so I'm pretty sure they'll only kill me after they've killed off the rest of you, LOL! :)

However, I will check them for teeth later and report back.


23 posted on 02/23/2006 8:11:58 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: GreenFreeper

Oops! Meant to add that chicken eggs are very useful in research of all kinds. They've used them to study fetal alcohol syndrome and a whole host of other human baby-in-utero related illnesses and defects.

A friend of mine is a Professor at the UW Research labs, and I visit his four huge chicken barns from time to time. He taught me how to hypnotize a chicken, which he does while he's giving some of his lectures. The chicken just lays there at his feet, staring off into space. How much more fun can you have than that? (They'll stay that way for about 30 minutes. They're not real bright...)


24 posted on 02/23/2006 8:15:58 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: GreenFreeper
"Maybe the are arming up for a revolt against the human oppressors."

Congratulations! - You've just been accorded an honorary PhD from the University of PETA

25 posted on 02/23/2006 8:17:30 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: GreenFreeper
>Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth


"French special forces
adjust their glasses
as they prepare
to meet the rebels in Bouake
. . ."


-------------------------------------------------------

(I'm ashamed. That was
a totally uncalled for
attack on the French,

but, well, you know, when
the title of a thread says
"chicken" someone must

do a French post and
I'm just doing my duty
as a good Freeper . . .)

26 posted on 02/23/2006 8:22:58 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
He taught me how to hypnotize a chicken, which he does while he's giving some of his lectures.

My first job out of college was with a mosquito management company. In addition to taking blood samples from wild birds (tested for encephalitis etc.), we would set out chicken coops in the middle of woods and even in cities. We would let them get bitten by mosquitos and then take blood samples and test it. I can attest to the intelligence of chickens- not bright is an understatement. We would 'hypnotize' them by holding them by their feet and swinging them upside down for 15-20 seconds. This made getting blood samples much easier. I only did this for a summer but it took me about a year before I could eat chicken again.!

27 posted on 02/23/2006 8:24:21 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: editor-surveyor
Congratulations! - You've just been accorded an honorary PhD from the University of PETA

Sweet! I've been looking for something to line the chicken coops.

28 posted on 02/23/2006 8:25:51 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: martin_fierro
>I hear they're pretty scarce

That's odd. One would think
chickens with teeth would compete
better than chickens

with just a bill, so
one would think evolution
would have selected

chickens with teeth as
the norm (over time) rather
than the plain old bird

if the genes are there
to make teeth in the first place.
A strange design choice . . .

30 posted on 02/23/2006 8:29:08 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: editor-surveyor

Chickens are turning into alligators ... is that the thesis here? But we already have alligators, so why do chickens need to become alligators? Meat-eating chickens would be pretty scary ...


31 posted on 02/23/2006 8:29:10 AM PST by Tax-chick (My remark was stupid, and I'm a slave of the patriarchy. So?)
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To: GreenFreeper

32 posted on 02/23/2006 8:33:05 AM PST by BulletBobCo
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To: GreenFreeper

That totally makes sense I don't know why I didn't think of that. *slap "bad Reaper!"*


33 posted on 02/23/2006 8:38:09 AM PST by Reaper FReeper (sometimes I wonder what ADD is, but than I find myself chasing a butterfly.)
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To: editor-surveyor

"Ah yes, another sucessful 'speciation.' (Not!)"

Evolution is, at best, speculation and nothing more.


34 posted on 02/23/2006 8:40:12 AM PST by TheBrotherhood (Tancredo for President.)
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To: Tax-chick
"Meat-eating chickens would be pretty scary ..."

But a dozen alligator-sized eggs for $1.25 sounds like a deal!

35 posted on 02/23/2006 8:42:18 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: TheBrotherhood

Keep trying, you're almost there.


36 posted on 02/23/2006 8:43:41 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: editor-surveyor

Excellent point.


37 posted on 02/23/2006 8:43:44 AM PST by Tax-chick (My remark was stupid, and I'm a slave of the patriarchy. So?)
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To: GreenFreeper

The way we do it is to hold the chicken for a while and pet it, so it's calm. Then you lay it on the floor (wood or cement is best) on it's side, and with your finger trace an imaginary line from the chicken's eye, away from them for a few feet. For some reason, they stare at the line your finger "drew" and they are zombie-like for about 30 minutes.

I do it to amuse City Kids who come out to the farm to buy eggs with their Moms. It's always a great hit, LOL!


38 posted on 02/23/2006 8:45:37 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: TheBrotherhood

Tancredo for President - YES !!!!


39 posted on 02/23/2006 8:45:50 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: GreenFreeper
So this "chick" had teeth and deformed limbs - and died before it was even born.

Evo's expect us to believe this is the way "evolution" worked ... or "works".

Yea. I get it now.

40 posted on 02/23/2006 9:00:50 AM PST by manwiththehands (Fighting daily against the dominant RINO culture.)
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To: GreenFreeper

This is not a complete surprise in that it was already announced 8-10 years ago that turning on certain dormant genes in chicken embryos could cause teeth to form inside an egg.


41 posted on 02/23/2006 9:33:17 AM PST by wideminded
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To: GreenFreeper

"I do not know for certain how they developed but I know several herbivorous dinosaurs were thought to have rudimentary gizzards. The evolution of a gizzard eliminated the need for sharp teeth and thus were lost. Birds are thought to be descended from herb. dinos so this makes quite a bit of sense to me."

As long as they had sharp teeth, there was no need for the gizzard. So the animals decided to eat stones to dull their teeth so they could eat plants? Doesnt't maake sense to me, might to you.

Back to the old question, WHAT CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG.

Evolution sounds a lot like the "invisible hand" in the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.


42 posted on 02/23/2006 9:40:17 AM PST by PeterPrinciple (Seeking the truth here folks.)
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To: GreenFreeper

That birds carry the genetic potential for teeth does not imply that they evolved from reptiles or any other creature except other birds that may or may not have had teeth.

In fact the article demonstrates that rather than a mutation occurring that suddenly tells chickens how to grow teeth, the genetic potential for teeth has been there all along and can be stimulated just by introducing the right chemical signals.

All this shows is that most creatures have more built in adaptability and variation in their genetic potential than we would normally assume.


43 posted on 02/23/2006 9:40:53 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: GreenFreeper
"By making a few changes to the expression of certain molecules in the pathway, the researchers were able to induce tooth growth in normal developing chickens."
What appears to continue to be elusive to the evolutionist is the fact that mutations lead to pre-mature death, or to abnormalities that lessen the particular species functionality as set forth in it's particular genetic structure, and it's associated biochemical functionality.
If by chance some bird species had mutated way back when and successfully produced a new strain at the far limits of its normal range of characteristics, and the particular morphological change was benificial. Why do not many species within the family of birds have teeth at this point.
I just cannot buy this stuff. These people have one mind set and will, to fit their agenda/believe system, go to any extreme to accomodate their supposed theories and findings.
With humility in mind. I see little difference in this particular case and say Stanley Miller and his coharts attempting various early earth experiments to create amino acids complexes from basic raw materials in a laboratory controlled set of conditions, required cold traps etc. to extract amino acids from the mixtures after their exposure to high voltage discharges and or ultra-violet bombardment. The end result being a bucket of goo if each carefully monitored step in the control process was not carried out.
They live in a dream world.
44 posted on 02/23/2006 9:50:13 AM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: DannyTN
That birds carry the genetic potential for teeth does not imply that they evolved from reptiles or any other creature except other birds that may or may not have had teeth.

Never implied this. The question dealt with the evolution of the gizzard, fairly unrelated to the article.

All this shows is that most creatures have more built in adaptability and variation in their genetic potential than we would normally assume.

Exactly. Homeotic genes and heterochrony give further credence to this idea.

45 posted on 02/23/2006 9:58:23 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: Marine_Uncle
Why do not many species within the family of birds have teeth at this point.

Well as the article stated, the chicken with the teeth did not survive, therefore, it could not have passed on those genes. While the death may or may not have been the result of having teeth, one must survive and reproduce for evolution to occur. Additionally, having teeth must have a distinct advantage if it is to be incorporated into the population. Often a perceived advantage can be a disadvantage. Teeth can be very costly- from the energy expended in production, to upkeep, to fighting off infections.

The same reason we don't have large claws is likely the same reason chickens don't have teeth- they and we don't need them. It does not provide any significant advantage.

46 posted on 02/23/2006 10:06:45 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: GreenFreeper

Reasonable response.


47 posted on 02/23/2006 10:51:45 AM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: GreenFreeper

Better chicken with teeth than Cows With Guns!


48 posted on 02/23/2006 12:45:25 PM PST by swmobuffalo (the only good terrorist is a dead one)
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To: GreenFreeper
"Never implied this. The question dealt with the evolution of the gizzard, fairly unrelated to the article."

I wasn't responding to the gizzard discussion, I was responding to the article itself your post #1. And the article implies evolution with references to reptiles, "80 million year old genetic pathway" and the assumption that development of a beak caused the lost of teeth.

My point, which I think you understood, was that creatures were created with a lot of genetic potential. Thus Adam may have carried the genetic potential for pygmies to Amazons, and all the colors of the rainbow without the need for mutations or evolution to account for diversity.

49 posted on 02/23/2006 4:44:32 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Tax-chick
>Chickens are turning into alligators ... is that the thesis here?

Maybe this provides
a long needed clue into
famous old lyrics --

------------------------------------------------------------------

Chewing on a piece of grass
Walking down the road
Tell me, how long you gonna stay here, Joe?
Some people say this town don’t look good in snow
You don’t care, I know

Ventura highway in the sunshine
Where the days are longer
The nights are stronger than moonshine
You’re gonna go I know

’Cause the free wind is blowin’ through your hair
And the days surround your daylight there
Seasons crying no despair
Alligator lizards in the air
In the air...


Wishin’ on a falling star
Waitin’ for the early train
Sorry boy, but I’ve been hit by purple rain
Aw, come on, Joe, you can always
Change your name
Thanks a lot, son, just the same

Ventura highway in the sunshine
Where the days are longer
The nights are stronger than moonshine
You’re gonna go I know

’Cause the free wind is blowin’ through your hair
And the days surround your daylight there
Seasons crying no despair
Alligator lizards in the air
In the air...


Do, do-do
Do, do-do
Do, do-do
Do, do-do ...




50 posted on 02/24/2006 7:19:28 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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