Skip to comments.Border security or boondoggle?
Posted on 02/25/2006 11:21:16 PM PST by SmithL
The wall would be intended to prevent illegal immigrants and potential terrorists from hiking across the southern border into the United States. It would run along five segments of the 1,952-mile border that now experience the most illegal crossings.
The plan already has roiled diplomatic relations with Mexico. Leaders in American border communities are saying it will damage local economies and the environment. And immigration experts say that -- at a cost of at least $2.2 billion -- the 700-mile wall would be an expensive boondoggle.
The December House vote of 260-159 is the strongest endorsement yet for building a wall, which Rep. Duncan Hunter, a San Diego County Republican, has been pushing for two decades as a tactic against illegal immigration. Support for the wall was even stronger than for the bill it was attached to -- a larger plan to curb terrorism and illegal immigration sponsored by Wisconsin Republican Rep. James Sensenbrenner that passed 239 to 182.
"It is a tangible demonstration of the seriousness of the United States in not permitting illegal migration into the country," said Jack Martin, spokesman for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, an advocacy group in Washington, D.C., that favors tighter immigration controls.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
Could we have a minefield between the double walls, please?
Come out swinging at those senators who criticized the Dubai deal. Have a presser and say "To Senator Clinton, who expressed so much concern for foreign impact on our security, I say, will you support this wall?" And so on.
I know he won't. But he should.
This is what most of our southern border looks like: there is no government-built fence at all. There is often just whatever is left over from some forgotten cattle fence, built privately to keep U.S. cattle from wandering freely into Mexico. For hundreds of miles there is not even a broken cattle fence, there is nothing at all.
For comparison, below the broken cattle fence photo is a sample of an inexpensive but highly effective double border fence system, with a plowed strip to reveal footprints. This type of system is very cheap and can be built with great speed.
Here is what some of San Diego County has: a wall made of rusty Viet Nam-era runway mats. The corrugations are even horizontal, (to make climbing easier?) The illegals in this photo were spotted by unexpected civilian volunteers, and jumped back over the border.
Here is what the border looks like where the runway mat wall exists. Mexico begins on the other side of the ineffective rusty wall, which actually helps the smugglers, by hiding their movements until the occasional USBP vehicle has driven out of sight.
This is how "the game" is played. Smugglers hide on the other side of the wall with their dope and/or their illegals, out of sight of the USBP. They wait for the highly visible white BP vehicle to drive over the distant hills. Lookouts with cell phones and walkie-talkies report on the current locations of the BP units. They know with certainty that "the coast is clear" for an hour or two, and the smugglers and illegals hop the fence and run into the scrub only 50 yards away. From there, they are out of sight, and they walk 1-2 miles to holding houses. Then they wait for nightfall, and are picked up and driven in vans to LA or San Diego.
Lastly, below is the Duncan Hunter 15' fence, which is already being built along a few "showplace" miles of San Diego, mainly near the ports of entry, where panderng politicians can conveniently show it off to gullible reporters. The House has approved building 700 miles of it, which would be a great start. As you can see, the rusty runway wall is seen at the left side, Mexico begins on the other side. In areas with the 15 foot fence, dope smugglers and illegals will have to cross the open sand ("the government road" as it is called) before starting to try to get over the 15 foot fence. It's extremely tough, and resists cutting. Attacking the fence would have to be done right out in the open, in full view of cameras. This type of fence, on the U.S. side of the government road, will give the USBP a barrier to patrol, instead of forcing them to chase illegals around 100,000 square miles of wide-open frontier land, which is a fool's errand.
Notice the poll was in the SF paper.
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie. Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
Making hiring illegal aliens a crime, you know, a real crime..
Could we have a minefield between the double walls, please?
I hope Bush comes to his senses and pulls what could be his most effective move for getting his poll numbers up:
Could we have a minefield between the double walls, please?
A minefield is really what's needed. Then station INS agents at all schools, hospitals, welfare offices, etc and file RICO charges against anyone employing the criminals.
The criminals would stop invading us and the ones already here would head back where they belong.
We should sentence all illegals and border jumper that we catch to 2 years hard labor building this border control device .
BTW, Mexico is a major exporter of cement and concrete, we could import the concrete from Vicente Fox (read Mexico) to build this wall at a reduced rate.
It is a flippin shame that people in the USA are totally clueless running a practical logistical project.
I agree. I'm a staunch ultr Right Wing Conservative since 1964. I DO NOT understand W's stance on this. He is a weak sister on border security. AND, he's a friggin TEXAN! /rant
In the mean time:
"Title 32, Section 9, U.S. Code now allows our governors to call out their National Guard for homeland security missions such as this at 100 percent Federal expense."
Pressure your border governor, even if your not in a border state. ; )
Can't help myself. A fence on the border would keep out real, dangerous aliens, not just imaginary green men.
As for Israel, you had better stay way from their security fence. You had better not try to mess with it. Twice in the last month Israel has fired missiles at Paleostinians who approached it. Four dead
This is great, but it would probably be the first of second bill Bush would veto during his Presidency.
But neither the dems or the Republicans want to insult the Mexicans. I read a good article posted on another thread titled the second Mexican revolution.
Illegals should be trained by the Marines to go out there and fight for OUR Country since they get so much and pay back nothing for the benefits they recieve in this Country. If not why not? Because they are Mexican nationals.....hmmm than why are they treated better than our Citizens?
If a "worker-program" translated to a program where companies large or small had too request foreign workers for a project or a very limited time and were responsible for the care,feeding,transportation to and fro than maybe that would work and it certainly would prove there is no such thing as jobs Americans wouldn't do. Or is it jobs Americans want and DESERVE to get paid a fair wage for??
But this worker program that isn't an amnesty program :::wink, wink:: is outrageous as the Dubai port security for national security problems!!
How much money do illegals cost in social services? Build the wall - enough said.
I'd be happy if the Marines trained the illegals to fight for their country. Take it back from the drug dealers.
"Could we have a minefield between the double walls, please?"
Excellent idea. Wish I'd thought of that one...
This wall will more than pay for itself in any number of ways. It is a perfect example of a good investment. Which is why I'm having a truly hard time believing that it could get approved by this Congress, which usually prefers to throw money into ratholes. And if Bush signs it, I may slip into a catatonic state from the shock.
"Walls , fences and border controls like this are going to become more and more the rule throughout the world as time goes by. There will come a time when we cannot imagine not having such border protections. The world has become too wild and dangerous of a place to leave wide open borders , especially when we now have the technology to do them right.
Let just do and get it over with , and ps: NO GAPS !"
That time seems to be approaching pretty rapidly-especially since the new proposal of cluing the Arabs in, by farming out OUR ports to them. To think that anybody cares about U.S. security except the U.S. is just pure greed and stupidity...
Well, there is always the possibility that he is right, being that he was a general and all. However, nobody's words are going to convince me that anyone other than loyal U.S. citizens are qualified to have access(in any shape or form)to our ports, or any part of America, most especially after 9-11.
Well, that's exactly what I don't trust. Blunders are more likely to occur, when such a huge majority of boxes, containers, and crates, are not inspected. And isn't a crazed idiot more likely to ship hazardous items into carefully calculated areas where lame inspection standards exist? This is a totally ridiculous situation. Every single item that comes into the states should be inspected, regardless of the time involved. But it doesn't seem like it will happen because it's, "just too much work for the fat and sassy in the U.S.".
somehow I do not think that the UAE deal is going to affect that much one way or another , that's a DHS deal.
However an efficiently run port operation may facilitate
more thorough and organized inspections?
Well, they're gonna do whatever they do, regardless of what I say. However, I am leary of Mr. Chertoff and his ambitions. And I am also leary of UAE, because they will obviously have access to information otherwise unavailable to them did they not have any affiliation with our ports. They will likely behave themselves for a while,(all the time accumulating whatever info. possible) then they may act up at any time and side with any terrorist group of their choosing and it will likely be too late for the U.S. and we'll then be at their mercy. And we all know, terrorists have no mercy.
Well, that does seem to be the only way Bush can pull himself out of this one. And using Mecca and Medina would go right to the heart of of it all. I'd bet they'd have the entire Arab and terrorist population saying, "Oh, no, not Mecca and Medina, we just can't go on without those precious little places of worship." I think, in the past, them folks just had a conniption fit when those places were bothered. Anyway, those terrorists are just ugly little thugs, who respect nothing except a show of force.
Travis, I have no idea where your top picture of the barb wire fence on the border was taken, mostly because it looks just like most of the border that I have seen across NM and Arizona. I wish we had the number of miles the fence looks like that or worse, it would probably amaze those who don't live near the border to know that there are miles and miles and miles just like that and worse. I really think all the Senators that are going to be asked to vote on the fence need that photo and the number of miles the fence looks like that.
That would have to be a pretty effective statement.
If there is no actual number we can find I bet those of us that live on the border could come up with a pretty close estimate. Hubby and I were just talking about it and he estimates at least 170 miles of border fence through NM is fence like that, maybe worse in some spots, but not any that is better.
The "Teddy Roosevelt" road is really just a federal right of way, and in most of NM there is NO road, and lots of miles of terrain so rough you could not drive along it if you wanted to. Also at least here in NM it is treated as a federal right of way only and the public at large has no right to travel there. The majority of NM border is the perimeter of a very few large ranches that are entirely closed to the public, and they enforce trespass laws against anyone found on the ranch. There are no gates to access only the border fence, and if you were not a government official they would charge you with trespassing for attempting to drive along the border fence.
I don't know how it is in CA, AZ, or Texas, but that is how it is here. We could ask each rancher how many miles of fence are on their ranch, but my hubby has worked on several of these big ranches and he already knows the answer. The whole border here is just pasture fence, it is maintained by the ranchers, just for the purpose of keeping livestock in, and it all is really old.
NM is totally fenced with pasture fence, there are only three ports of entry in NM; Antelope Wells, Columbus, and Santa Theresa. Antelope Wells has pasture fence even at the port, there is not even a Gov't fence on the port property, just pasture fence. There is a fence planned for the port property itself, but there is not one there now. Columbus POE only has a tiny piece of Chain link at that POE, same at the Santa Theresa crossing.
If you figure out the miles of border fence in NM and deduct 1 mile total for Gov't fence at the ports you would be generous in deducting the mile. There is NO part of the border that has any type of fence other than pasture fence in NM other than small pieces at the ST and Columbus POEs.
Hubby estimating 170 miles in NM, but you could get a much closer figure by getting an accurate map and measuring on the map.
This is what most of the Cali border I've seen looks like, and plain folks may hike along the right of way between the runway mat wall and the ranchers' property. As you can see in this photo, the runway mats are no hinderence to illegals crossing. If anything, they help to hide groups of illegals from the BP until they have driven out of sight.
I don't know about NM, but in Cali, there is plenty of evidence that land owners on the US side are involved in smuggling.