The Forget Hell! crowd

Townhall.com ^ | February 27, 2006 | W. Thomas Smith, Jr.

[SuzyQ2]

I love history. I’m proud of my Southern heritage. But for me to be angry to the point of protesting a moment in Southern history that happened nearly a century-and-a-half ago would be just, well, nonsensical. And would in some ways tarnish that heritage.

[reagandemo]

I cannot blame the people for doing that given the circumstances. What should be noted is that after the war Sherman was one of the greatest friends of the South and was instrumental in giving pardons to Confederate soldiers mainly Robert E. Lee which he personally fought to have pardoned.

[stuartcr]

It's the same mindset of some of those people in Europe, that never forget.

[Publius6961]

But that was then. This is now. And what’s the point, generations later, of hanging an effigial representation of Sherman on the grounds of the State House when he was simply doing his duty as a soldier, or Lincoln who was trying to preserve the Union we all today embrace?

What's the harm?
There were no people killed.
Cars burned.
Neighborhoods torched.
People threatened.

Specially in today's world, what's the harm?

[AnAmericanMother]

The reenactors were silly to hang Sherman in effigy. Their annoyance is misplaced. To some extent, even their annoyance at Lincoln is misplaced (but not as much as Sherman).

It is a fact that Sherman was one of the most popular speakers at Confederate reunions after the War. (My gg grandfather was commander of the Eufauala Camp, UCV. They invited him to speak and feted him royally.)

This doesn't make sense unless you know that Southerners admired Sherman because he believed in "Total War and Total Peace". He was one of the Yankees who worked for a conciliatory peace rather than the punitive actions of the Radical Republicans, and that was greatly appreciated by Southerners who were trying to rebuild their lives after the War. My gg grandfather was a banker and lawyer before the War, but there was no money and no court system postwar. He worked as a teamster, using two of his old artillery horses, until the economy got back on its feet.

Lincoln would most likely have introduced conciliatory measures, had he not been assassinated. J.W. Booth did nobody a favor. Extreme punitive measures such as those introduced by Reconstruction are counterproductive (see WWI and France kicking Germany while she was down = WWII.)

[Blzbba]

"And what’s the point, generations later, of hanging an effigial representation of Sherman on the grounds of the State House when he was simply doing his duty as a soldier,"




I don't know what 'the point' was...but that "He was just following orders" didn't work for Nazi scum at Nuremburg.

[Constitution Day]

FYI

[Liberty Valance]

Thus was - and is - war, particularly a war fought by exhausted, largely uneducated troops with access to wine cellars and liquor cabinets, and who had been taught that their enemies were nothing more than common rebels.

I hope he was smiling when he used the term common rebels if he's referring to Confederate Soldiers.

[Publius6961]

On a related matter however, if there are two "cultures" and two legacies in our country to admire, I continue to embrace the one I've never experienced first hand: the Southern. I hope I can experience it before I die.

[AnAmericanMother]

"Welcome south, brother!"

[Little Ray]

I'm pro-South, but I'm pro-USA first. We can argue about the course of the nation as soon as we finish beating Hell out of our foes and staunch the wounds.

[Donald Meaker]

The amusing thing is that the burning of Atlanta is one thing that Sherman is blamed for.

Atlanta was burned by Hood, beginning with his ammunition train which he could not withdraw because the rail lines were cut. Hood had the intent of denying Atlanta as a base to Sherman.

Later Southern vandals cut the fire hoses in Richmond, so the Union would be unable to put out the fires they had started. Part of the "better to die in the last ditch" mentality.

Reconstruction: The best government the South had ever had, and better government than it had for 100 years after the great rebellion.

[Riley]

It is a fact that Sherman was one of the most popular speakers at Confederate reunions after the War. (My gg grandfather was commander of the Eufauala Camp, UCV. They invited him to speak and feted him royally.)

This reinforces an observation that I made on another thread this morning, also about the War- that the more I study it, the more 'shades of gray' and surprises that I find.

A few years ago, I was shopping for a fixer-upper in the Marion, SC area to live in and fix up. (Lovely little town, I probably shouldv'e done it)

The mention of Sherman's name (I didn't bring it up, either) caused expressions of seething anger.

[Donald Meaker]

France didn't kick germany while she was down. Rather, the reconstruction costs were modeled after the German terms given to France in the war of 1870. Still, if you track the flow of money, there was a net influx of money (significant amounts of money went into Germany as loans and as startups of german branches of english and french companies) into Germany after WWII, and that funded the modernization of German industry after WWI.

The really sad thing is the Weimar republic had licked inflation before Herr Schicklegruber took office. Schicklegruber took all the credit though. Big lie technique worked then, and works now.

[stainlessbanner]

Dixie Ping

[buck61]

Sherman did the nation a great deed, he purged the South of slave owners.
I live in Tn. and my father was born 1898, Dad had a great deal of knowledge of the Civil War.
There were slave owners in our community and, they were all
Democrats. They just couldn't give up the idea of free labor
for their timber business and etc. Their heritage is almost all gone now and they no longer rule our county as Democrats.
The thing that gets me, is how the blacks in American now hate the party that set their ancestors free from slavery.
Atlanta needs another purging, not on the scale that Sherman did however.

[stainlessbanner]

I live in Tn. and my father was born 1898

Oldest FReeper ever!

[Flavius Josephus]

It is the same mindset of the "Angry Black" who claimed this past weekend that it is a small step from the "Killing Fields of the Slave Ships to the Killing Fields Of The Superdome," at the State of the Black Union "Symposium" in Houston, TX.

[rustbucket]

Reconstruction: The best government the South had ever had, and better government than it had for 100 years after the great rebellion.

You mean the government that tried to stay in power by barricading the Texas capitol building with an armed force in 1874 after they were soundly voted out of office by a 2 to 1 margin? See: Radical Republicans seize the capitol building and Radicals in Texas.

[jpl]

Lincoln would most likely have introduced conciliatory measures, had he not been assassinated. J.W. Booth did nobody a favor. Extreme punitive measures such as those introduced by Reconstruction are counterproductive (see WWI and France kicking Germany while she was down = WWII.)

Lincoln unquestionably wanted reconciliation, not a harsh peacetime retribution. Andrew Johnson knew this and was determined to carry his policy out, and very nearly got convicted and removed from the Presidency for his trouble.

[Flavius Josephus]

Uh, yeah, considering Goebbels almost coined the term "Big Lie", didn't he?

I would just say about Sherman, that he is a symbol now. Like Lincoln, he "belongs to the ages." I'm glad to learn he was involved in the side of reconstruction that sought to heal the wounds rather than perpetuate them. Worst thing that can happen, then as now, is to let a bunch of Massachusetts (and greater New England) liberals get involved. A more self-righteous, ineffectual bunch of effete snobs you will never find, then or now. Reconstruction was a HORRIBLe way to run the governments of the south, and led to the perpetuation of the hatred that has led to the mutual mistrust and hatred between the North and the Old South that still exists today.

[wardaddy]

man, FR sure gets some koolaid drinking brainwashed idiots doesn't it?

even the usual South bashers around here don't pretend the Reconstruction era laughable state governments elected when most whites were disenfranchised were the "best the South ever had"....too funny......I did not realize Cornel West was a FReeper.

well, at least he hasn't called us Nazis yet..

[AnAmericanMother]

If you believe that, I don't guess anything I could say would disabuse you of your mistaken notions.

We lived through it . . . did you?

[AnAmericanMother]

Sherman did the nation a great deed, he purged the South of slave owners.

No, he didn't. He just burned a lot of property.

The Radical Republicans THOUGHT they were "purging the South," but all they did was get everybody's back up.

[wardaddy]

[stainlessbanner]

< snip > But despite the misdeeds of Sherman’s soldiers, the razing can’t be totally laid at the General’s feet.

Double standard: Give him the glory of victory, but forget his misdeeds. He was such a great leader, he couldn't control his troops? Doesn't make sense

It's been getting pretty bad around here lately. The usual south bashers have been replaced by folks who subscribe to revisionist ideas. Their ideas are rooted in fantasy. It would be amusing if these people did not pass themselves off as "conservatives."

[wardaddy]

anyone who surrenders the culture war is no conservative.

[wardaddy]

Sherman was forgiving....as was Grant more or less...and Lincoln too compared to the Jacobin Radical Republicans

but the behavior they allowed in the war was debatable regardless of their reasoning

were we to do that to our common foes today, the media and most politicians would howl and we would be scorned by history as pillagers

[stuartcr]

The world is full of mindsets.

[stuartcr]

As long as there are forums...there will be bashers.

[rock58seg]

BIG difference!! Sherman won!

[Riley]

The 'killing fields of the Superdome'?

That has to go down as one of the most egregious examples of overblown rhetoric that I have ever read. Why should anyone take someone who would say such a thing seriously at all?

[stand watie]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stand watie]

!!!!!!!!!!!

[reagandemo]

"but the behavior they allowed in the war was debatable regardless of their reasoning"

I disagree. What Sherman and grant did was to bring the level of the war up to the point where it would break the Southerners will to fight and limit the loss of union lives. What Truman did to the Japanese was to drop the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to achieve the same goal. Yes some people detest what Truman did but I would argue it was the right decision.

[stand watie]

in other words, the "end justifies the means"????

should we have committed mass WAR CRIMES to end WW1 & WW2 sooner???

sherman was a WAR CRIMINAL, who deserved hanging.

free dixie,sw

[MamaTexan]

More claptrap about how people that believe the federal government violated the letter and the law of the Constitution are unAmerican and racist.

I thought better of townhall.com.

Ironically, the 14th Amendment and it's 'giving Negros equality under law' actually did no such thing.

It leveled the playing field by making us ALL 'US Citizens' under federal control. ______________________________________________________________________

"... the term `citizen' in the United States, is analogous to the term `subject' in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government."
14 CJS section 4 quotes State v. Manuel 20 NC 122

-----------

"There are, then, under our republican form of government, two classes of citizens, one of the United States and one of the state".
Gardina v. Board of Registrars of Jefferson County, 160 Ala. 155; 48 So. 788 (1909)

-----------

"...rights of national citizenship as distinct from the fundamental or natural rights inherent in state citizenship".
Madden v. Kentucky, 309 U.S. 83: 84 L.Ed. 590 (1940)

-----------

"The amendment [fourteenth] reversed and annulled the original policy of the constitution"
U.S. v. Rhodes, 27 Federal Cases 785, 794

-----------------

Americans today sit around wondering how government got so out of control, yet insist the Civil War was justified......and they NEVER see the connection between then and now.

[Blzbba]

"in other words, the "end justifies the means"????
should we have committed mass WAR CRIMES to end WW1 & WW2 sooner???

sherman was a WAR CRIMINAL, who deserved hanging."




Agreed. "Just following orders" didn't work for scumbag Nazis nor should it suffice for a$$hole Sherman.

[reagandemo]

I disagree. What Truman did was not a war crime. What Truman did was save the life of my dad and countless thousands of American soldiers from the death that waited for them if they were to land on the Japanese mainland. What Sherman did was what he thought was right. I just made that statement as he saw it. Also, that is why I said that the people of the South who burned him and Lincoln if effigy had a good reason to feel that way.

[stand watie]

NOPE, it sure did NOT. they NAZI-scum got what they deserved.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

you're WELCOME to disagree.

it's called "freedom of expression".

free dixie,sw

[Flavius Josephus]

The 'killing fields of the Superdome'?

That has to go down as one of the most egregious examples of overblown rhetoric that I have ever read. Why should anyone take someone who would say such a thing seriously at all?

That's a good question. Here's another one. Why does the professional "angry black" faction seem so surprised that when they call whites "evil, racist motherf***ers", they don't get any cooperation out of those they're insulting?

[PistolPaknMama]

were we to do that to our common foes today, the media and most politicians would howl and we would be scorned by history

Makes Gitmo look like the Annual Whitehouse Easter Egg Roll.

[old gringo]

you don't know what the hell you are talking about.sherman is called kerosene billy in the south.he burnt my grandfather's house and everything else standing,my grand father was a confederate soldier he lived to be 109 i knew him well.have you ever talked to a confederate soldier?

[wardaddy]

when I was a boy in the 60s and 70s, there was no talk like this

it all pretty much got a foothold in the 80s

and all boils down to neverending racial redress meant to deflect the true more painful causation than to admit problems that are more self inflicted than not

[wardaddy]

BTTT to your posts

[wardaddy]

You can disagree all you want but even most of Sherman's supporters wince at his punitive actions on the South

the war had lasted as long as it had by 1864 because of Southern military leadership in Virginia and the ineptness of most Union generals prior to Grant.

not because the South was as entrenched emotionally or materially as Imperial Japan.

poor comparison.

Sherman wanted victory period and he knew that breaking the backs of the populace was easier done and more effective than sporadic field victories especially while folks like Lee and Forrest kept it up

there is no evidence whatsoever that the aged, infirm , prepubescent or female populace left in the South by the time of his excesses was prepared to fight a guerrilla war to the last man standing as the Japanese were.

Sherman is on record in his letters admitting to allowing excesses to break the political will of the South....because he feared it. Not to spare his men.

If he and Grant were so worried about their own men, they would have allowed prisoner exchanges after they knew that a starving South would not be too good a place for their prisoners...but they did not.

Casualties attrition was part Of Grant and Sherman's overall strategy something that distinguished them both from prior Union leaders like McClellan for example....

now as for Truman....you'll get no argument from me. the Japs started it and they had it coming.....no need to rationalize all that for me.

it amazes me that conservatives would today seek to glorify Machiavellian scorched earth in America between kinsman as a good thing.....that whole damned war was deplorable and cost a lot of good lives that might have changed history

now i look around at my decaying culture and wonder if we deserve folks dying for us

[wardaddy]

It is not very accurate to compare political parties from the 1860s and today though folks can't resist.

The Republicans of today are far more like the socially moderate to conservative Democrats of the 1860s (they would be more like Whigs actually and may suffer the same fate if they don't nut up)

And the Radical Republicans that were so "popular" in extreme Northeast TN were much more like today's social engineering, heavy handed federal government Democrats than they are to modern Republicans.....not even close.

But like I said, the comparison is very tenuous not matter how you slice it...

I have a family mountain home at Grandfather Mountain and drive thru Carter county every couple of months....i always notice the great irony that Southern Independence spirit is much greater there with flags banners, and bumperstickers than anywhere I go except what's left of Dixie Florida.

Your Union ancestors would not be happy....

Regards....

[buck61]

Sherman, gottaer dune.

[reagandemocrat]

West Virginia wasn't a state until 1963--