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The Devil Comes Back From Georgia (Stalin's resurgence in Russia - God help us!)
Reason ^ | February 28, 2006 | Cathy Young

Posted on 02/28/2006 9:47:56 AM PST by neverdem

Stalin's resurgence in Russia

Two events last week starkly illustrate the dilemmas of countries grappling with a terrible past. In Austria, Holocaust denier David Irving received a three-year jail sentence for his public assertions that the Nazis did not carry out a systematic extermination of the Jews during World War II. Meanwhile, in Russia, as the country marked the 50th anniversary of its official turn away from Stalinism under Nikita Khrushchev, many people regard the late dictator's legacy as mostly positive—and a new museum celebrating that legacy is about to open.

Irving's sentence reflects Europe's hard-line approach to its Nazi past. Laws prohibiting Holocaust denial and pro-Nazi propaganda are stringent in Germany and Austria, the countries most directly implicated in Nazi crimes against humanity; but they exist in many other countries on the European continent as well. Such laws are troubling to most Americans.

To some, the issue is not clear-cut. Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, said that "while Irving's rants would not have led to legal action in the United States, it is important that we recognize and respect Austria's commitment to fighting Holocaust denial...as part of its historic responsibility to its Nazi past."

While I have no sympathy for Irving (who, faced with jail, tried to weasel out of his position with the ludicrous claim that new evidence has led him to believe people were slaughtered at Auschwitz after all), I still think that the law used against him is a bad idea. The state of Austria can own up to its responsibility to its past without criminalizing even the worst of speech. In the United States, even without legal sanctions, Holocaust denial is effectively marginalized by public opinion.

Meanwhile, the criminalization of Holocaust denial may perversely strengthen the hand of the deniers, leading some to argue that the defenders of Holocaust history must have little confidence in their facts if they feel they must silence challengers. Historian Deborah Lipstadt is concerned that the jail sentence could give Irving publicity and martyrdom instead of the obscurity he deserves.

On to Russia, where from the early 1930s until his death in 1953 Stalin slaughtered his own people on a Holocaust-like scale. It is estimated that at least 20 million died. The extermination was not as systematically deliberate as the Nazis', but the victims, in the end, were just as dead.

Fifty years ago at a secret Communist Party meeting, Stalin's successor, Nikita Khrushchev, gave a speech denouncing Stalin's "personality cult" and the repressions under his rule. This speech began the process of the de-Stalinization of the Soviet Union, Most political prisoners were released, and many of the dead posthumously exonerated. Yet neither the Soviet Union nor, in later years, post-Soviet Russia fully repudiated Stalin, or fully came to terms with his crimes. In recent years, Russian president Vladimir Putin has been advocating a more positive view of the country's Soviet past. Cities have erected monuments to Stalin.

A Stalin museum is scheduled to open in March in Volgograd, formerly known as Stalingrad.

Polls show that 30 to 40 percent of Russians now regard Stalin's role in history as mostly "positive," crediting him with turning the Soviet Union into a superpower and defeating Hitler.

Compared with this amnesia about state crimes against humanity, the German experience is certainly a good model—whatever one thinks of Germany's Holocaust denial laws. Sadly, amnesia about the crimes of communism is common in the West as well; historians who have downplayed and minimized those crimes, such as Miami University of Ohio historian Robert W. Thurston (who argues that there was no "mass terror...extensive fear did not exist...[and] Stalin was not guilty of mass first-degree murder"), have not been ostracized the way David Irving has been for a long time.

The resurgence of the Stalin cult in Russia shows the danger of such amnesia. Holocaust denial and Gulag denial should be finally seen as the twin evils they are.


Cathy Young is a Reason contributing editor. This column originally appeared in the Boston Globe.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Russia
KEYWORDS: andropov; cccp; coldwar2; communism; communists; kgb; mao; pootiepoot; premierputin; putin; russia; soviets; sovietunion; stalin; ussr; vladimirputin
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To: Proud_USA_Republican
I heard their is trend in russia now to be sporting clothing with CCCP written on it. Its considered hip now.

I have been to Russia sevral times since 2000, and neither I nor my wife have seen anyone wearing it. Furthermore, my stepdaughter lives there now, and she hasn't seen anyone wear it in sometime.
51 posted on 02/28/2006 2:28:56 PM PST by GarySpFc (de oppresso liber)
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To: neverdem
If 30 - 40 percent of Russians think Stalin was a good guy, the same guy who collaborated with Hitler to bring about the circumstances that precipitated their Great Patriotic War, those folks are seriously DELUDED! It's hard to imagine a worse outcome. Putin's regime enobles all of the worst attributes of the KGB and the mafia.

Have you considered how the poll was conducted? Thirty to 40% of Russians do not think Stalin was a good guy, but rather that his leadership helped win the war...that's all. My wife's father taught his 5 children Stalin was an evil monster, and that while the monster was still alive.

Regarding the resurgence of Stalinism in Russia I will repeat this again. In and around the city of Volgograd (Stalingrad) there are hundreds of monuments to the war. NO WHERE IN THE CITY OF VOLGOGRAD, OR AT THE STALINGRAD MEMORIAL ON MAMAEV HILL, OR IN THE MUSEUM IS THERE A STATUE OF STALIN, AND THE WAR HAS BEEN OVER FOR 61 YEARS. LAST YEAR EVERYONE WAS WRITING IN THE NEWSPAPERS THAT STALIN WAS BEING REVIVED IN RUSSIA, AND A MONUMENT TO STALIN, ROOSEVELT, AND CHURCHILL WAS BEING ERECTED IN VOLGOGRAD. THE DIRECTOR FOR THE MOUNUMENTS FOR STALINGRAD LAUGHED WHEN ASKED ABOUT IT, AND STATED HE WOULD NEVER APPROVE ONE. AT THIS TIME FROM THE INFORMATION I HAVE SEEN THERE ARE THREE MONUMENTS TO STALIN IN ALL OF RUSSIA, TWO IN SIBERIA, AND ONE IN MOSCOW WITH THE NOSE BROKEN OFF. BASED ON THAT INFORMATION IT WOULD BE MORE LIKELY THAT MONKEYS WOULD FLY OUT OF LENIN'S BUTT THAN FOR THEIR TO BE A REVIVAL OF STALINISM IN RUSSIA.
52 posted on 02/28/2006 2:38:01 PM PST by GarySpFc (de oppresso liber)
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To: Semper Paratus
Yes, on the dead bodies of those poor souls/slaves who built it! It is estimated for every mile of track laid, two people died. The trans-Siberian railway is (I believe) over 5,000 miles long. Terrible, just terrible, the amount of human agony and suffering Stalin inflected upon his own people all under the “glorious/infamous” banner of Communism, but as "Uncle Joe" said;

"You kill one man and it is a ‘tragedy’; you kill a million men and it is merely a statistic."

53 posted on 02/28/2006 2:40:19 PM PST by Jmouse007 ("Negotiate and die!" Brought to you by "Islam the Religion of Peace tm")
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To: LostGirl
By the way, it is rather a myth that Ms.Rice speaks Russian. When she was in Moscow, journalists felt very enthusiastic about it and tried to speak in Russian to her several times, but she looked confused and needed interpreter's help every time. In the end she managed saying couple of common words. She definitely coudn't speak or understand Russian, may be she can read a little bit.

Ms. Rice can speak Russian, but the problem is she has not been using it for the last 30 years. In a Russian environment she would pick it up very quickly.
54 posted on 02/28/2006 2:45:44 PM PST by GarySpFc (de oppresso liber)
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To: Calpernia

Thanks for the toon! How did you find it?

http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dspolitic/pm/10620cs.jpg


55 posted on 02/28/2006 3:01:06 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: GarySpFc

I'm not saying every teenager is running around Moscow wearing CCCP clothing, but I've heard that their is throwback clothing and shirts that sports CCCP being sold right now.
But I'm sure there are many Russians whos wouldn't be caught dead wearing a jacket or any clothing with CCCP on.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11257872

A few weeks ago, I was over at a friends house and she turned on "Dancing with the Stars". Jerry Rice's dancing partner was a Russian bombshell, named Anna Trebunskaya, and she was wearing a white workout shirt with CCCP in big red letters when they were practicing.


Then again, this could be just a trend for dancing primadonnas with few braincells to speak off. :)


56 posted on 02/28/2006 3:06:34 PM PST by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Calpernia
Is that a comparison of Stalin to Jesus Christ????

Not really. Just an observation.

57 posted on 02/28/2006 4:23:46 PM PST by Mogengator
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To: neverdem

Various estimated of Soviet deaths under Stalin:

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000

There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating.

The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.

Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:

Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:

Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years.

Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.

Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.

Gold, John.: 50-60 million.

Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.


http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm


58 posted on 02/28/2006 4:32:42 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

I would not be surprised if such things sell better here than in Russia.


59 posted on 02/28/2006 4:42:35 PM PST by x5452
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To: Supernatural

Thanks for the link. Twentieth Century Hemoclysm bookmarked!


60 posted on 02/28/2006 5:20:42 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

My pleasure. No one should ever forget what a monster Satlin was and Communism is.

Those who have not learned the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.


61 posted on 02/28/2006 5:22:50 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: neverdem

Forgot to thank YOU for this good thread.


62 posted on 02/28/2006 5:23:39 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: Mogengator
Ok. I apologize for misunderstanding.
63 posted on 02/28/2006 5:57:13 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Calpernia

Thank you, Calpernia.

Some of that is the reason why this family goes to enormous lengths to purchase direct from those who raise the foods or to fund/foster the raising of it.

We know, by sad experience, that it is worthwhile.

Monsanto is a peeve, FDA more and USDA not much less.


64 posted on 02/28/2006 6:23:18 PM PST by Spirited
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To: Supernatural; wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; ...
Do not condemn Putin out of hand

Special Force for a Special Branch

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list. Check out the link in comment 58 of this Reason thread.

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm

65 posted on 02/28/2006 6:28:05 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for putting me on your list. I'm going to check out your links.


66 posted on 02/28/2006 6:31:21 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: neverdem

Putin I don't trust at all. Former KGB, sly and cunning.

The marines used to have a bunch of guys called RECON. Pretty elite in their own right. Wonder what happened to them?


67 posted on 02/28/2006 6:35:04 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: neverdem

68 posted on 02/28/2006 6:50:04 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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Stalin returns to favour for Russia's Victory Day party

Dictator Stalin stirs nostalgia as Russians remember war

69 posted on 02/28/2006 6:57:16 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Supernatural
The marines used to have a bunch of guys called RECON. Pretty elite in their own right. Wonder what happened to them?

Recon Marines Past and Present

70 posted on 02/28/2006 7:13:14 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

Status: presently we have six full platoons.

A guy I used to work with was a RECON in Nam. He told me they would set up ambushes and kill 20 or so of the enemy in a matter of a few seconds.

He also told me of operations in Cambodia. On one trip, one of the guys in his outfit was attacked by a tiger during the night when most of them were sleeping. They killed the tiger.

His brother was also in Nam and had half of the cheek of his ass blown off by a captured .50 that went through a palm tree before it got him.


71 posted on 02/28/2006 7:18:04 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: Spirited
The direct purchase won't be an option anymore if the NAIS goes through.

More related articles, FR keyword search: tagging

72 posted on 02/28/2006 7:26:22 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: bassmaner

Great points, but I'm a numbers guy.

Rummel has the numbers.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Stalin was worse.


73 posted on 02/28/2006 7:39:06 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: GSlob; Spirited
There's a Hayek quote from TRTS that I like to throw in the face of Leftists trying to equate American right-wingers with Nazism/Fascism. They generally don't like having it pointed out that the Nasis were *socialists*. The quote shows how close Nazism and Communism were, from an educated observer who was there at the time:

No less significant is the intellectual outlook of the rank and file in the communist and fascist movements in Germany before 1933. The relative ease with which a young communist could be converted into a Nazi or vice versa was well known, best of all to the propagandists of the two parties. The communists and Nazis clashed more frequently with each other than with other parties simply because they competed for the same type of mind and reserved for each other the hatred of the heretic. Their practice showed how closely they are related. To both, the real enemy, the man with whom they had nothing in common, was the liberal of the old type. While to the Nazi the communist and to the communist the Nazi, and to both the socialist, are potential recruits made of the right timber, they both know that there can be no compromise between them and those who really believe in individual freedom.

74 posted on 02/28/2006 7:47:53 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Thanks for the pic and links.


75 posted on 02/28/2006 7:48:29 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping.


76 posted on 02/28/2006 8:13:55 PM PST by GOPJ
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

It's too bad that Putin is not selling them anymore. He wants to keep the remaining Lenin and Stalin statues as "Historical Landmarks".


77 posted on 02/28/2006 8:37:01 PM PST by Thunder90
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To: neverdem; Stellar Dendrite; lizol; Tailgunner Joe

PING


78 posted on 02/28/2006 8:39:03 PM PST by Thunder90
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To: x5452

"(Numbers wise Stalin and Hitler about tie, and Mao beats them both)"


Wrong again... Stalin killed 20-30 million people.


79 posted on 02/28/2006 8:48:45 PM PST by Thunder90
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

I didn't think Jesus was dead.


80 posted on 02/28/2006 9:34:16 PM PST by Coleus (Roe v. Wade and Endangered Species Act both passed in 1973, Murder Babies/save trees, birds, algae)
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To: jb6; x5452; Romanov; Hill of Tara

As near as I have been able to determine there are 3 statues of Stalin in all of Russia, with the one located in Moscow having the nose cut off. Yep, there is a big resurgence of Stalinism in Russia...NOT.


81 posted on 03/01/2006 5:14:27 AM PST by GarySpFc (de oppresso liber)
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To: Thunder90

And hitler around 50 million.


82 posted on 03/01/2006 6:34:44 AM PST by x5452
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To: Mogengator
Well, a lot of folks in this country are still worshipping someone who's been dead for 2000 years +/-.

Actually, the Resurrection is every bit as provable an event as Julius Caesar's reign in Rome or the campaigns of Alexander. He's alive.

83 posted on 03/01/2006 11:26:05 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (GOP Blend Coffee--"Coffee for Conservative Taste!" Go to www.gopetc.com)
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To: GSlob
They, each staring in his time, placed pretty similar claims on what could be poetically called human souls. Thus a comparison is both warranted, illustrative and necessary.

Surely you jest.

They made the opposite claims, and took opposite actions.

84 posted on 03/01/2006 11:29:34 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (GOP Blend Coffee--"Coffee for Conservative Taste!" Go to www.gopetc.com)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Well, a now dead dissident poet Alexander Galich originated this idea in the 1970s and even produced a poetry cycle to elaborate it [that's where I took the idea from]. The claims of kingdom of Heaven vs. Stalin's kingdom on earth - to omnipotence, to eternal duration, to perpetual prayer/praise and so on were indeed identical.
So, as for "surely you jest" - any jest has to contain a big grain of truth to be called a jest.
85 posted on 03/01/2006 12:30:55 PM PST by GSlob
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To: FreedomPoster

Thank you for the quote.


86 posted on 03/01/2006 8:18:26 PM PST by Spirited
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To: x5452; Thunder90

No. Just no.

I suggest you read your Rummel.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM


87 posted on 03/01/2006 8:31:53 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: neverdem

Russian communists with red flags queue in Red Square in Moscow to pay their respects
at the grave of former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, during a rally devoted to the 53rd
anniversary of the death of the former Soviet leader, Saturday, March 4, 2006. St. Basil
Cathedral at centre, Kremlin's Spassky tower at right and GUM Department store at left.
(AP Photo/Sergey Ponomarev)


Russian communists pay their respects at the grave of former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin
at the Red Square in Moscow during a rally devoted to 53rd anniversary of the
death of the former Soviet leader, Saturday, March 4, 2006. (AP Photo/Sergey Ponomarev)


88 posted on 03/04/2006 6:59:29 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Galveston Grl
"Ohhh, that is more like an idol or a false god."

Not to be taken literally.:-)
Actually I borrowed a phrase from Anne Rand describing communists and their "Iron Gods" of socialism.;-)
89 posted on 03/04/2006 7:43:13 PM PST by RedMonqey (People who don't who stand for something, will fall for anything.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

gluttons for punishment


90 posted on 03/04/2006 9:00:23 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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