Austrian prosecutors: We'll have to react to new Irving remarks

M&C news ^ | March 1, 2006 | Anon

[rcocean]

Vienna - Austrian prosecutors said Wednesday they would have to act over a fresh denial of the Nazi Holocaust by jailed British historian David Irving.

The new denial came in interviews with several British journalists in his Austrian prison cell, where he is beginning a three-year sentence.

A spokesman of the state prosecution said: 'We're going to have to react to that. We can't overlook it.' It was possible that Irving had again broken Austrian laws banning Nazi 'revivalism

[rcocean]

Looks like Irving may have broken the law again for his jailhouse interview.

Austria may prosecute him one more time.

[oldleft]

Much as I despise this guy, I despise Austria's draconian laws even more.

[ketelone]

Hey, when in a foreign country, you gotta follow the rules. If this guy things he can go wherever he likes, say whatever he likes, hes mistaken.

And happily, he now gets a taste of what living in a totalitarian state is like!

(Im not saying Austria is totalitarian, but curbs on speech represent something of the sort).

[tonycavanagh]

re :I despise Austria's draconian laws even more.

This law was enacted while Austria was still under the control of the Allies.

Its easy to judge this law 60 years on.

You have to take into account the nature of the crime, and the time.

Germany and Austria were broken nations there cities devastated, millions dead, starvation in the cities and country side, four occupying powers and the shame and horror of the final solution hanging round there head.

They were the lepers of the world. David Irvine new what he was up to, as a Historian he new all about the history of this law, but like the holocaust it was a minor detail in his role as a self publicist.

[cripplecreek]

Apparently his opinion is a terminal case, next stop euthanasia. (sarc I think)

[muawiyah]

Well, anyway, relatively speaking Austria is pretty much a totalitarian state ~ lot in common with Mugabe's little prison camp except people aren't starving to death at the moment.

Not sure we want people like Irving to be getting any ideas from these people.

[muawiyah]

BTW, this particular law was enacted (according to earlier posts by folks who know how to research Austrian laws) in 1992, which is over 40 years AFTER Allied occupation.

The speech codes are not of a piece with the anti-nazi legislation imposed by the Allies ~ they must be viewed as something different ~ more like a resurgence of traditional authoritarian norms.

[PzLdr]

The prosecutor was already appealing the three years an Austrian court sentenced him to as too light [max. possible 10 yrs]. So what has Irving got to lose? They're going to screw him anyway, for, in the end result, having idiotic opinions, and publishing same.

I find it somewhat odd that on FR we are quick to justify and accept the Austrians' laws [ignoring our western cultural values of free speech], but jump all over other countries systems [the Islamic nations come to mind]. There is, of course, a quantum difference in the provisions of those laws, and those cultures. But the principle is the same. If you oppose the one, you should condemn the other, as well.

[cripplecreek]

Austria will be seeking a 'final solution' to people like Irving if they refuse to stop expressing their opinions.

[tonycavanagh]

Hi muawiyah

We have debated this on other threads as I say before you judge walk in there shoes.

You have to think back to what it was like then.

Got a excellent book at home will bring in the title, for you as you seem to be interested in Germany and Austria.

It will help you gather that sense of perspective I am talking about.

[tonycavanagh]

re :Well, anyway, relatively speaking Austria is pretty much a totalitarian state ~ lot in common with Mugabe's little prison camp except people aren't starving to death at the moment.

LOL Now that is complete and utter bollox.

That sounds like that kind of stupid statement people come out with when they say this is not a million miles from what the Nazis did when some official annoys you.

I was also on the Zimbabwe desk 1999 so I know about Mugabe's camps

[muawiyah]

I know how these guys are thinking ~ that's why they vote in such god-awful candidates in both Germany and Austria.

They should research their own history and find out where they went wrong and fix that.

The Jeffersonian revolutions of the 1840s would probably be a good stopping point. Their elites should finally give up their idea that there's an European "third way" and implement the reforms demanded at that time.

That'll at least get them off on a good footing.

[muawiyah]

Ineresting, I got arrested crossing the Austrian border going into Germany once.

It's the sort of thing you never forget.

[flushed with pride]

This will, no doubt, backfire on the Austrians. I can't help but believe that this will spread DI's point of view even further. If he was allowed to speak freely, and his thesis was opened up to critical reviews from his peers, the end result would probably further reduce his reputation to that of 'ultra crackpot'. But now that an academic is headed to jail (simply for having a disagreement with history) it will gain him sympathy from others, possibly even some Jews.

[tonycavanagh]

read this book REMEMBERING AND FORGETTING NAZISM.

Its also a good one.

As for they should research their own history and find out where they went wrong and fix that.

LOL I think that adage could apply to all of us Nations as well as individuals.

Don't be too smug about your right in America, America has not been put to a real test yet.

One day something may happen and you may find all your rigfhts disappearing and for all you know you may even support that mobe because a national crisis dictates it to be so.

LOL I remember the Cold war when many Right wingers stated that to beat the Communists we needed to give up more of are rights.

I have seen this stated here on FR.

[muawiyah]

The fundamental problem with this is that it is now not possible to refute Irving without also pointing to what it was he was saying.

Just saying it will get you prosecuted.

The Austrians have put a lot of fear into the process, and with no effect other than to eliminate even critical comments of the man.

[tonycavanagh]

re :Ineresting, I got arrested crossing the Austrian border going into Germany once.

I bet you smart mouthed them.

I tried to go into the Netherlands once from West Germany and thought my Army ID card was enough, it wasn't I needed a passport all they did at customs was to hold me and then put me on the first train back.

[muawiyah]

Don't recall Right Wingers saying that it was necessary for ordinary folks to give up rights in order to beat the commies. The proposals were more along the lines of killing the commies.

If you recall, communism was much more about behavior than it was speech, if it was speech at all. Commies don't go for that free speech thing anyway.

[muawiyah]

No, Army IDs were OK for going both ways, or even through Italy to Austria, and on a guided commercial tour, you could go from Deutschland to Italia to FYR! (I think that was Slovenia ~ ).

Anyway, didn't smart mouth the guy. Just that he couldn't read my three-day pass (which I had to have along with my ID).

This was a young border guard guy on a Sunday afternoon ~ probably doing overtime.

They'd had some trouble with German speaking Italians at the time, so the border guards were touchy.

Turnedout the guard knew German, he knew Italian, he knew Serbo-Croat, and some other Slavic languages, but he didn't know English.

My German was "bad" ~ but my Latin was much better, and so was his.

Explanations were figured out, his machine pistol went back over his shoulder, and I was released to cross over into Germany.

Lots of fun. Only other time I ever had to use Latin was in Luxembourg at a gas station.

My Latin is now quite rusty.

[tonycavanagh]

re ;No, Army IDs were OK for going both ways, or even through Italy to Austria, and on a guided commercial tour, you could go from Deutschland to Italia to FYR! (I think that was Slovenia ~ ).

LOL just more proof about one rule for the Yanks and another for us Brits.

When were you out there my tour in West Germany was 1985 to 1987.

Based in Dortmund

[flushed with pride]

Latin itself is quite rusty. You mean that Latin is still actually spoken somewhere in the world? I was under the impression that, outside of the Catholic church, it ceased to be in use some time ago.

[muawiyah]

68/69, and the rules were different right up to Oct 68 when the Russians messed up Czech. The only place I could go on just my ID and a pass after that were members of the Common Market and to UK.

I would imagine your service operated under those same rules.

[muawiyah]

There are people who use Latin cognate languages ~ in Luxembourg, in Switzerland, in Austria.

Then you have the ex-seminarians.

Latin is more alive than any of the various kinds of Gallo.

[tonycavanagh]

re :I would imagine your service operated under those same rules.

We had to use a passport to travel outside Germany.

I think the main reason was AWOLs.

If we thought someone was going to do a runner there passport was confiscated.

[muawiyah]

Simple enough ~ a Ukian would find it remarkably easy to get "back home". An American, though, would have a much more difficult time of it ~ and most of them would want to stay in Deutschland anyway.

We had a Dutch architect who'd moved to the US and gotten drafted. He used to visit his mother a couple of times amonth!

[muawiyah]

But, back to Irving and the Krautmasters ~ given that he's a very stupid guy, why do the Austrians think they have to prove themselves even more blockheaded?

It's not like there's any contest any of them can win.

[rcocean]

Its so absurd. Except for a small number of neo-nazi's, no one cares about Irving's views on anything. Except for all the free publicity, he would just be an obscure nut, with no more influence than the President of the Flat Earth Society, except:

His enemies will not leave him alone. They persist in attacking him, jailing, etc. thereby giving him all the publicity he wants.

I wonder how many ignorant people, around the world, are now saying: "Well, maybe Irving is right, I'll have to visit his website or read his book".

[Yo-Yo]

So what's stopping Austria from repealing it? Free speech is free speech, as long as it isn't "Fire" in a crowded building.

Today it's against the law to deny the Holocaust. Tomorrow it may be against the law to deny the Prophet Mohammad.

[tonycavanagh]

re :So what's stopping Austria from repealing it?

Because its only been sixty years.

Can you imagine the uproar in the worlds press, it would make front page news and I bet discussed extensively on the Internet in forums such as this. The whole Nazi past would be raked up again.

Germany and Austria are very touchy about what happened during the Nazi years. They were social lepers for years.

[JC399]

The idea that laws specific to Holocaust denial being enacted at the end of WW2 is a common misconception. Most of those laws are relatively recent - like within the past 25 years or so in European countries that have them. Instead of repealing such laws I think you'll see a lot more of them.

You may not be aware of this but denying the Armenian genocide is also a crime in France and Switzerland. The famous Jewish American historian, Bernard Lewis, has already been convicted of this heinous crime some years back in France and two Turkish Nationals in Switzerland are currently under investigation, and may face charges as well. It's a scary world.

Bernard Lewis case, France (he was convicted):
http://www.hr-action.org/armenia/LeMonde.htm
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.240/current_category.76/affirmation_detail.html

Turkish Nationals, Switzerland (under investigation):
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=111&sid=5978414
http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050506063125876
http://archive.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=42246

In Germany and Austria even simple insult/slander is a criminal offense (you can go to prison for it). They also have laws against things like defaming the state (punishable by 5 years in prison) and spreading malicious gossip against people in political life. These laws are not just about Nazis - they hurt everyone.

"Nils B. must not be imprisoned for accusing Bremen authorities of racism"
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR230041998?open&of=ENG-DEU

"TWO MEN FACE IMPRISONMENT FOR CRITICISING STATE AUTHORITIES"
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/germany/document.do?id=48061E51E9752A1A802569A500715D9A

Defaming the state charge/conviction for protesting the killing of an asylum seeker by the police. These protesters held up signs comparing the Bavarian police to Nazis,

"Verunglimpfung des Staates – Kritik wurde bestraft.
Der Student Hans-Georg E. protestierte gegen den Tod eines Asylbewerbers während der Abschiebung mit "Nazis modern, der Staat schiebt ab, das ist das gleiche Faschistenpack". Damit habe er - so das Landgericht in 2.Instanz - das "Augenmaß verloren". Süddeutsche Zeitung, 4.4.2000, Seite L4"

http://www.cras-legam.de/HHZ06.htm

http://www.rote-hilfe.de/rhz/rhz199904/puv011.html

You may know also the Ernst Zündel is being tried in Germany for denying the holocaust. But the clincher is that he didn't violate any laws within the borders of Germany. He is being convicted for his US/Canadian website even though he hasn't lived in Germany since 1958. Germany ruled some time ago that those who publish material illegal on internet can be punished under German law even if the material resides on a foreign server and even if they are not German citizens. Thus, German law appears to transcend its borders.

"German prosecutors obtained an arrest warrant for Zundel in 2003.

Their 20-page indictment widely cites Zundel's texts dating from 1999 to 2003, which prosecutors say demonstrate his attempts "in a pseudo-scientific way, to relieve National Socialism of the stain of the murder of the Jews."

Zundel "denied the fate of destruction for the Jews planned by National Socialist powerholders and justified this by saying that the mass destruction in Auschwitz and Treblinka, among others, were an invention of the Jews and served the repression and blackmail of the German people," it says.

Because his Holocaust-denying website is available in Germany, which is now run by his wife, he is considered to have been spreading his message to Germans."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051108/zundel_trial_051108?s_name=&no_ads=

See also,

"
(1) If a foreigner puts on the Internet on a foreign server statements made by him or her that satisfy the definition of incitement to hatred and violence against segments of the population (Volksverhetzung) as defined in section 130 (1) or section 130 (3) of the German Criminal Code (known as the “Auschwitzlüge” - holocaust denial), and this server is accessible to Internet users in Germany, then if these statements are specifically suited to cause unrest in Germany, this constitutes a result that is one of the elements of the offence (section 9 (1), third alternative, German Criminal Code).
"
http://www.margaret-marks.com/Transblawg/archives/000062.html

So even Americans can be prosecuted for what they say on internet in their own country.