Israelis see red over Indo-US nuke deal

The Indian Express/ PTI ^ | Posted online: Monday, March 06, 2006 at 1438 hours IST | The Indian Express

[kenavi]

An unfortunate mention probably but the truth nevertheless, isn't it?

So you think the truth is that Israel deliberately attacked a ship they knew was American? Otherwise, if it had been a tragic mistake, why would you have mentioned it?

[indcons]

kenavi:

Since you brought up this specific issue, I'll answer it.

The bombing of USS Liberty was no unfortunate accident. Here are some quotes from some very reliable US military and civilian officials re: the attack on the USS Liberty.

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous " -- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." -- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship." -- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable" -- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error." -- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers. -- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.... I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American." -- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry

"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument." -- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14

[Bogeygolfer]

I could also care less about the Pollard issue and regret the Liberty incident. We spy on everybody including our best friends and the Liberty was an accident. China is however a major issue.

[kabar]

...the Liberty was an accident

No, it wasn't. Why would the surviving crew members of the USS Liberty lie about what happened?

WAR CRIMES REPORT FILED BY USS LIBERTY SURVIVORS

[indcons]

"The reason why Israelis resumed sale of weapons to China is because of the nuclear deal with India."

You should be ashamed for spreading such barefaced lies (not that I expected otherwise). The Israeli arms sales to China are atleast 2 years old while the US deal with India is not even a week old!! LMAO...nice try.

Nice try also at linking the Chinese lackey AQ Khan to India. Did you get your talking points from Beijing this morning?

[Bogeygolfer]

Yeah I just read the prior post by Indcoms and I perused your link and read some of the statements. Where I lose it is what did Israel have to gain by attacking a ship sent to help them? I couldn't find anything in my short review to give a motive.

[kabar]

From a 2002 article:

Transactions between the U.S. and Israel are not necessarily worrisome by themselves; after all, as Israel has proved, there are a host of countries willing to sell the weapons it needs. Currently, Germany is Israel's source for submarines, and if Israel really needed fighters, Russia is always looking to make a buck and always seems to have a surfeit of aircraft and other excess defense articles.

The real danger comes in Israel's habit of reverse engineering U.S. technology and selling to nations hostile to U.S. interests. Israel's client list includes Cambodia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the South Lebanon Army, India, China, Burma and Zambia. The U.S. has most recently warmed up to India and is now in fact competing with Israel for arms sales there, but the other Israeli customers remain dubious at best.

Perhaps the most troubling of all is the Israeli/Chinese arms relationship. Israel is China's second largest supplier of arms. Coincidentally, the newest addition to the Chinese air force, the F-10 multi-role fighter, is an almost identical version of the Lavi (Lion). The Lavi was a joint Israeli-American design based upon the F-16 for manufacture in Israel, but financed mostly with American aid. Plagued by cost overruns, it was canceled in 1987, but not before the U.S. spent $1.5 billion on the project.

Last April, when the Navy EP-3E surveillance plane was forced to land in China after a Chinese F-8 fighter flew into its propeller, photos show Israeli built Python 3 missiles under the fighter's wings. If Israeli weapons sales to China induce misgivings, including the most recent U.S. blocked sale of Israel's Phalcon airborne radar, the beneficiaries of Chinese arms transfers of Israeli-American technology are even more disturbing. In 1996, as disclosed in the UN Register of Conventional Arms, China sold over 100 missiles and launchers to Iran, along with a handful of combat aircraft and warships. Even worse, in 1997 the New York Daily News reported that Iraq had deployed Israeli-developed, Chinese PL-8 missiles in the no-fly zones, endangering American pilots.

[kabar]

Perhaps the Israelis wanted to draw us into the conflict. They made a concerted effort to sink the ship using jet aircraft and torpedo boats, which straffed the three lifeboats. Their repeated attacks over several hours were intended to murder everyone onboard. Without witnesses, the Israelis could claim that it was the Egyptians.

The USS Liberty was not sent to help the Israelis. It was sent into the area, in international waters, to listen in on radio communications by the Egyptians. There was some evidence that Russian pilots were operating Egyptian aircraft as well as manning missile batteries.

If you really want to learn what went on, I suggest you go deeper into the link beyond reading just a few statements. The evidence is overwhelming that this was a deliberate attack.

[indcons]

I support Israel because it is a natural ally against global Islamic terror. However, the Israeli actions w.r.t. the ChiComs are troubling. The ChiComs "String of Pearls" strategy is aimed at encircling US in Asia, Pacific, and the Indian Ocean rim.

The ChiComs are also busy signing up military deals with radical Islamic regimes....any Israeli support of the barbaric Chinese regime is essentially support of the US' greatest potential enemy. The ChiComs are the biggest threat to world peace. Period.

[Bogeygolfer]

I will research it as you suggest. I hope I can come up with a better explanation than you though as far as motive. My gut is that it was an accident or possible something more sinister but by an small faction. I need a motive and there are too many issues with the conspiracy theory. If Israel wanted to sink the ship and leave no survivors they would have done just that. Furthermore they didn't need us 'in' the war, they handled it fairly well themselves if memory serves. Additionally the ship was sent to help them by monitoring the enemy and those are the words from your own link. An interesting subject and a sad day no matter how you slice it. I'm not a consipiracy buff however and believe the truth in most 'conspiracies' is often boring and a result of ignorance or errors.

[gogoman]

You are Indian-Am and clearly very Pro-India. But you also forget India was not the US's historic ally. India, like China, was NOT in favor of our war in Iraq. The new Indo-US relationship is good for America, but is it so hard to see that many other nations in the world might at the moment have a hard time adjusting to this new change? Even Australia was put in a difficult spot by the Indo-US deal. A lot of Chinese are Pro-US, and the current Chinese administration is certainly not Anti-US. The Chinese should be viewed as a potential challenge (threat) to American power and interests, but there's nothing for you to beat the war drums with yet. You seem to think India can do no wrong, and chastize the Israelis for the slightest transgression. You forgot that India and the former USSR were socialism-loving allies in the Cold War. So I take great offense at your generalization of all Chinese as being Communist sympathizers and your blatant agenda on FR of INDIA = GOOD, CHINA = BAD; INDIA FREE TRADE = GOOD, CHINA FREE TRADE = BAD. You got to realize, India had pariah status for the last 2-3 decades in the US foreign policy. There was a reason for that. It's great that relations are now normalized, but there's still a long way to go. Many Chinese-Americans on FR were originally from Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and coastal cities of Shanghai, Shenzhen and Guangzhou and are not sympathetic toward the Communists at all. Just like you don't think the 100,000 protestors in New Delhi represent Indians' opinions of America, we don't believe all Chinese are polarly opposed to the US. The communist government of China does not represent the entire voice of the Chinese people (membership of the Chinese Communist Party is less than four percent). The Chinese middle class today is larger than the Indian middle class, and is also overwhelmingly pro-US and pro-Western values. Ever been to a Chinese language internet forum? There are tons of discussions on democracy and free speech made by the Chinese middle class; censorship can only go so far. I think we as Freepers should encourage that, just as we encourage the Indo-US relationship. Sure China's government is not a democracy, but we need to support grassroot democratic interest in China, not hinder it. So let's cut the crap on INDIA = GOOD, CHINA = BAD. Both play strategic interests for the US at the present moment. China is vitally important to the health of the US economy and inflation control right now. Until Bush openly states that China is an eminent threat to America, put the war drums back into the closet.

[indcons]

You're right, I am pro-India; I have never tried to hide that fact. And yes, I am anti-ChiCom too (and not anti-Chinese). BTW, if you see my posting history, I bash Indian communists and socialists a much as I bash the ChiComs.

If you believe that the ChiComs are friends of the USA, you are in for some rude surprises. Check the thread on the ChiCom killing of dissidents in Atlanta, GA. The murder was carried out by suspected ChiCom "diplomats" (if the source is right.

You're wrong about my attitudes toward Israel. I admire the Israelis (as I have pointed out repeatedly). However, the Israeli collaboration with the ChiComs is a cause for concern.

[indcons]

Welcome to FR, btw. Looks like you know quite a bit about me in the 2 days that you have been here...LOL.

Go find out a bit more about me before spreading your pro-ChiCom propoganda.

[gogoman]

Why do you think I am spreading Pro-Chicom propaganda?

You still seem to think that anyone interested in China or Chinese events is Pro-Chicom. That's simply not true.

Like I said earlier, many FRs here are from Taiwan, Singapore and HK. Land of the free. We don't spread Pro-Chicom propaganda.

[indcons]

LOL...just saw your posting history. It speaks volumes about your ideology.

BTW, are you "ckwilliams," the ChiCom troll that was banned on March 2 (or thereabouts)? Freepers MonkeyWrench, Paul Denton, and I were wondering when that troll would be back (under a different alias of course). Interesting to see that your sign up date, posting history, and biases are very much like ckwilliams.

[gogoman]

I think my posting "ideology" has been pretty consistent. It's America first. Outsourcing is possibly harmful to the US and thus we need more discussion and facts on this, and the US should be more active in encouraging democracy and free speech in more repressive parts of the world (like China). This is like the positions of many freepers here. PM me if you want to talk in private.

[monkeywrench]

"Until Bush openly states that China is an eminent threat to America, put the war drums back into the closet."

The chicoms themselves have openly stated their threats to us. It's also obvious in their dealings around the world, that they are a threat to world stability and security.

[indcons]

"US should be more active in encouraging democracy and free speech in more repressive parts of the world (like China)"

Is that why you are against Taiwanese independence?

[txhurl]

index

[kenavi]

Since you brought up this specific issue(Israeli attack on USS Liberty, 1967)

You brought it up, then said all you wanted to do was to criticize Israeli arms sales to your archenemy China. Now you reveal what you truly believe.

Somehow, the U.S. Naval Commission of Inquiry determined it was a mistake. There is no plausible explanation for the Israeli interest in deliberately attacking a U.S. ship, and almost 30 years later, nothing has surfaced from the Israeli side to give evidence of deliberate targeting. No subsequent U.S. Administration has come up with charges that it was deliberate, and there have been 7 U.S. Presidents since that time, including previous and the present Republican administrations with high officials who are hard-headed and definitely not stooges for Israel, e.g. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pat Buchanan, Jim Baker, Alexander Haig.

So, Mr. Indcons, if you are sure enough to believe that the Israelis deliberately targeted the U.S.S. Liberty, sure enough to cast it out here in reference to some unrelated report that some anonymous Israeli is kvetching about losing military sales to the Americans, you either believe that there is a tremendous Jewish conspiracy that controls this country's gov't, or you are privy to perfect information.

More likely, you choose to believe it, because it suits your interests to do so. Are those interests those of a patriotic American solely, or those of an Indian nationalist who wants the U.S. to hate China as much as India does, and who has worked up in his mind an irrational rivalry between his Indian homeland and a small Jewish nation that is even more at risk than India to a hostile Moslem world?