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A Peculiar People: Crunchy Cons
Breakpoint with Charles Colson ^ | March 7, 2006 | Charles Colson

Posted on 03/07/2006 6:08:18 AM PST by Mr. Silverback

If you encountered someone who made his own granola, bought his veggies at a food co-op, wore Birkenstock sandals, and wanted to save the environment, if you’re like me, you’d probably think, well, there goes a lefty, or a liberal, or maybe an aging hippie. But the author of a new book says someone like that is just as likely to be a conservative Republican. In his book, Crunchy Cons, journalist Rod Dreher writes about a group of people he calls “crunchy conservatives,” a group that includes, among others, “hip homeschooling mamas,” “Birkenstocked Burkeans,” “gun-loving organic” farmers, and “right-wing nature lovers.”

What Dreher, a Dallas Morning News columnist, means by “crunchy conservative” is someone who rejects the “consumerist and individualistic mainstream of American life.” This rejection distinguishes their worldview from that of mainstream liberalism or conservatism, which, in Dreher’s estimation, are both “essentially materialist ideologies.”

The result of this materialism is “a society dedicated to the multiplication of wants and the intensification of desire, not the improvement of character.” What sets Dreher’s “crunchy cons” apart is the extent to which they have recognized the corrosive effects of a culture that is both materialistic and pornographic, and they are prepared to do something about it.

They all start at the most basic level: marriage and family. Of course, the liberal and the conservative mainstream both affirm the centrality of the family. After all, apart from some radicals, everybody is for the family, right?

Well, not like the “crunchy cons” are. People like Caleb Stegall, a Kansas lawyer who is profiled in the book, don’t just talk a good game when it comes to family—their lives testify to its importance. They walk away from prestigious jobs and sacrifice a second income in order to make the time to raise families correctly.

This emphasis on family and instilling character is why many crunchy cons homeschool. As a Manhattan mother of five told Dreher, homeschooling shows her kids that their well-being is what’s most important. Instead of working to give them more “stuff,” she gave them more time instead.

This de-emphasizing of “stuff” is another hallmark of Dreher’s Crunchy Cons. It’s not because they reject capitalism or seek to appear “holier-than-thou.” It’s because they understand the importance of postponing gratification in building character. They know that people accustomed to satisfying every material want are not likely to exercise restraint in any area of their lives.

This emphasis on restraint cuts across the grain of a culture where people are taught to regard anything that stands between them and their desires as a kind of “tyranny.” So it comes as no surprise that most of Dreher’s “crunchy cons” are Christians.

That’s because Christians understand—or should, at least—how pervasive what writer Dan Knauss calls the “porno-culture” is. This pervasiveness is why protecting our kids requires diligence and commitment. Dreher’s “crunchy” conservatives—mostly “crunchy” Christians—are reminders of what the apostle Peter meant when he called followers of Christ a “peculiar people.” And it’s why these “hip homeschooling mamas” and “right-wing nature lovers” are worthy of our respect, no matter what they wear on their feet or how much granola they eat.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: breakpoint; crunchycon; ecoping; granolawingofthernc; kayak; thevillage
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I'm not a crunchy con (I wouldn't be caught dead in Birkenstocks) but I do share some of their values. For years my wife stayed home with the kids, now I do it while she does nursing, and I do some writing on a part-time basis.

Home schooled kids will be running the country in 20 years. Count on it.

There are links to further information at the source document.

If anyone wants on or off my Chuck Colson/BreakPoint Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

1 posted on 03/07/2006 6:08:20 AM PST by Mr. Silverback
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To: 351 Cleveland; AFPhys; agenda_express; almcbean; ambrose; Amos the Prophet; AnalogReigns; ...

BreakPoint/Chuck Colson Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my Chuck Colson/BreakPoint Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

2 posted on 03/07/2006 6:09:58 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (GOP Blend Coffee--"Coffee for Conservative Taste!" Go to www.gopetc.com)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Interesting post!

I know people like this through Church connections. The ones I know aren't hard-core conservatives--for example, welfare doesn't frost their buns nearly as badly as it does mine--but they do believe in giving generously, and don't believe in giving away other people's money. Similarly, they believe in being "good stewards" of the planet, but they don't go in for Greenpeace. They don't believe in adultery, but they also don't believe in stoning. "Conservatives in birks" is not a bad description of these folks.

Disclaimer: I own a pair of cork sandals, but they aren't birks. I don't wear them, though, because sandals seem to promote stinky feet like crazy.

3 posted on 03/07/2006 6:13:48 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
>>>>“a society dedicated to the multiplication of wants and the intensification of desire, not the improvement of character.”


Go three days living off the land with a spear and sleeping with a bear skin rug. Then come and tell me how much it improves your character. Crunchy Cons should immediately have their Cell Phones confiscated, their HBO unplugged and get made to go out in nature and practice what they breach.

"Birkenstock Burkeans" my rear end. PJ O'Rourke had a more accurate sobriquet. "Birkenstock Bolsheviks."
4 posted on 03/07/2006 6:15:48 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Spreading liberal beliefs is as wrong as spreading AIDS.)
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To: Mr. Silverback; blam; Carry_Okie; Chanticleer; ClearCase_guy; cogitator; CollegeRepublican; ...
ECO-PING

FReepmail me to be added or removed to the ECO-PING list!

Crunchy-Con ping...

5 posted on 03/07/2006 6:15:57 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: Mr. Silverback

There are many ways to reject mass-market, no-brain popular culture.

See you at the chamber music recital...


6 posted on 03/07/2006 6:23:57 AM PST by proxy_user
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To: Mr. Silverback

"...if you’re like me, you’d probably think, well, there goes a lefty, or a liberal, or maybe an aging hippie.."

I guess I'm not like him.

Actually, I'd be resisting the urge to punch that hippy filth in the face as hard as I could. That kind of dicispline requires alot of concentration, and would be all I was thinking about.


7 posted on 03/07/2006 6:26:28 AM PST by Gefreiter ("Are you drinking 1% because you think you're fat?")
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To: Mr. Silverback
This is new? How do they differ from the Mennonites or Apostolic Christians? And then you have the Amish, who have them all beat when it comes to working with nature and being self sufficient.
8 posted on 03/07/2006 6:26:46 AM PST by TruthBeforeAll (NAZI-ism: A belief that human perfection is as easy to achieve as mechanical perfection.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

Own any Earth Shoes ?


9 posted on 03/07/2006 6:27:42 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: .cnI redruM
Crunchy Cons should immediately have their Cell Phones confiscated, their HBO unplugged and get made to go out in nature and practice what they breach.

What makes you think these people have HBO?

10 posted on 03/07/2006 6:30:08 AM PST by Sloth (Archaeologists test for intelligent design all the time.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

I'm seeing the rise of the Limbaugh Babies now! And loving every minute of it. My out-of-college kids are probably a little more conservative than my hubby and I.....and that's going some!


11 posted on 03/07/2006 6:40:45 AM PST by trimom
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To: Mr. Silverback

Ahh, you ought to try Birkenstocks! They are really, REALLY comfortable! I'm not in that guy's book, but my family could be. Been home schooling for 16 years, we make do or do without. My kids are old enough to appreciate their upbringing and have thanked us for it.


12 posted on 03/07/2006 6:41:03 AM PST by Vor Lady (Mal, "Remember, we just want to scare him." Jayne, "Pain is scarey!")
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To: LongElegantLegs

Birkenstock ping.


13 posted on 03/07/2006 6:44:46 AM PST by Vor Lady (Mal, "Remember, we just want to scare him." Jayne, "Pain is scary!")
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To: Shalom Israel

My wife and I fit the description of "crunchy cons," and I guarantee you that we are *at least* as conservative as you or anyone on the list. As with any ideology, there are degrees of difference -- I'm sure you're right about the people you know, I just didn't want you to think that we are all conservative-light.


14 posted on 03/07/2006 6:47:15 AM PST by austinrepub
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To: austinrepub
'm sure you're right about the people you know, I just didn't want you to think that we are all conservative-light.

I second that...conservation is conservative.

15 posted on 03/07/2006 6:50:09 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: Mr. Silverback

bump


16 posted on 03/07/2006 6:51:37 AM PST by VOA
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To: Mr. Silverback

“gun-loving organic” farmers, and “right-wing nature lovers.”

You rang? LOL!

Please add me to your ping list, Mr. Silverback. :)


17 posted on 03/07/2006 6:52:33 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
There is absolutely nothing inherently contradictory about being a "right wing nature lover." Don't a lot of right wingers live in the countryside?

Some schools of conservatism (such as the European kind) have always had a deep distrust of "alienation from nature." Unfortunately, they also tend to interpet such alienation as Jewish (some idiots even claim that Jews have never practiced agriculture).

It always burns my biscuits when conservatives imply that nature is "the enemy" and that only man was created by G-d. Who created nature . . . the Devil?

18 posted on 03/07/2006 6:53:43 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Zakhor 'et 'asher-`asah lekha `Amaleq baderekh betzei'tkhem miMitzrayim.)
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To: Shalom Israel
"Conservatives in birks"

I resemble that remark! ;o)

19 posted on 03/07/2006 6:56:02 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: austinrepub
My wife and I fit the description of "crunchy cons," and I guarantee you that we are *at least* as conservative as you or anyone on the list.

I believe you. I was only referring to those acquaintances of mine; they're conservative enough to disapprove of welfare queens, but they're rather bemused at how spitting angry I can get about such things.

I just didn't want you to think that we are all conservative-light.

Fair enough. I think the religious angle plays an important role. It seems to make them reluctant to take the revolutionary viewpoint, even though it's also what makes them disapprove of the status quo.

20 posted on 03/07/2006 6:59:27 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: .cnI redruM
You seem to have missed Mr. Colson's point. He notes that Crunchy Cons do NOT reject modern society as the liberal crunchy sort sometimes seems to want to do. They understand that God placed us on the earth to be stewards of His Creation. Crunchy Cons don't WORSHIP nature, but they do respect it. The article mentions that Crunchy Cons might DELAY purchasing things sometimes, or doing things they might otherwise want to do in favor of spending more time with their kids, e.g. homeschooling instead of Mom taking a job so the family can do more vacationing and buy more stuff.

Nothing wrong with any of that, is there?

21 posted on 03/07/2006 7:01:02 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ
I resemble that remark! ;o)

Then you're prolly may favorite kind of people. Even if I'm not much of a sandal-wearer myself, they do seem to be the funnest people to hang around with--except that the liberal ones can be so tiresome.

22 posted on 03/07/2006 7:06:10 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Shalom Israel

I have even joined the ranks of those in the Northeast who wear socks with their Birkie clogs. Hey, I'm a Southern gal by birth and my feets get COLD up here!


23 posted on 03/07/2006 7:08:19 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ

"You seem to have missed Mr. Colson's point. He notes that Crunchy Cons do NOT reject modern society as the liberal crunchy sort sometimes seems to want to do. They understand that God placed us on the earth to be stewards of His Creation. Crunchy Cons don't WORSHIP nature, but they do respect it. The article mentions that Crunchy Cons might DELAY purchasing things sometimes, or doing things they might otherwise want to do in favor of spending more time with their kids, e.g. homeschooling instead of Mom taking a job so the family can do more vacationing and buy more stuff...Nothing wrong with any of that, is there?"

Well said. *Applause* I'm glad to see that there are others like me out there. I'm as conservative as they come, but I also fit this "crunchy" stereotype to a "T".

Be sure to check the link to the article; there was some terrific reading referenced at the bottom. :)


24 posted on 03/07/2006 7:10:34 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: .cnI redruM
'cause God knows you can't have a happy, fulfilling life without Cell Phones and HBO.../sarc

I think you're missing something here; For 'crunchy cons'(I don't like the name), loving nature is personal. For liberal tree-huggers, it's a political ideology and weapon. We discourage materialism in our own houses, but a liberal will tax you for your 'luxury' items.

25 posted on 03/07/2006 7:12:10 AM PST by LongElegantLegs (Going armed to the terror of the public.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Interesting read.

The older I get the more I appreciate comfortable shoes...even if they do cost a bit more than my WalMart sandals. I don't homeschool, but have considered doing so and it is still an alternative. We support our local animal shelters, yet not PETA. I choose to not feed my family veal, yet don't tackle others in the grocery store who do. I support truthful drug education for your youth, yet do not support the current War on Drugs. I still feel that many of societies ills come from the demise of traditional family values.

Some conservatives have called me a flake. Frosted, corn or crunchy I don't know.

26 posted on 03/07/2006 7:12:48 AM PST by sweet_diane (Bush bashers do not speak for me.)
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To: LongElegantLegs
>>>We discourage materialism in our own houses, but a liberal will tax you for your 'luxury' items.

There is something to be said for that outlook. I just don't think it will stop at the yard's edge. Moderate environmentalism reminds me of moderate Islam; a misnomer designed to disguise a disingenuous intent.
27 posted on 03/07/2006 7:14:48 AM PST by .cnI redruM (We need John Wayne; not Brokeback Mountain.)
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To: SuziQ
I have even joined the ranks of those in the Northeast who wear socks with their Birkie clogs.

Whoops, you lost me there, sorry. If it's cold enough for socks, I say hang up the clogs. If you're in connecticut, the approved winter-wear for girls is jodhpurs.


28 posted on 03/07/2006 7:15:45 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: .cnI redruM
That's very true; giving a me the title of 'environmentalist' would be a terrible insult. ;-P

I like 'conservationist' better. The dictionary definition of it is "one who practices conservation of natural resources", as opposed to Environmentalist, which is "Advocacy for or work toward protecting the natural environment from destruction or pollution."
Conservationists try to change their own behavior, Environmentalists try to change everyone else's.

29 posted on 03/07/2006 7:23:12 AM PST by LongElegantLegs (Going armed to the terror of the public.)
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To: Mr. Silverback
Rod Dreher is brilliant.

Anyone who is honest and thinks for himself will be a maverick of some kind.

This is one of the things that make Leftists so insufferably boring: They cannot think for themselves. They are slaves to appearances, fashion, and groupthink. And they cannot be honest. If they were truthful and capable of original thinking they wouldn't be Leftists in the first place.

I do not like labels and categories--including "crunchy conservative." In fact, I do not consider myself to be "conservative". I am myself; that's it.

I love my Birkenstock sandals. I like granola but do not make my own. My wife and I are both strict vegetarians. Neither of us is a Leftist. We are both liberal. (Note tagline.)

I have an arsenal of guns, and I know how to use them. However, I hate hunting. We do not allow it on our property. My lawn is a mess because of the wild animals, but I'd rather have them--and watch them enjoying life--than have a pretty lawn.

My wife and I live in The Middle of Nowhere. And do we love it! Yesssssssssss! No neighbors. Pristine beauty everywhere. No noise. Yet windows on the world everywhere, including the internet and access to travel.

Yes. The pornographic culture that surrounds us is corrosive, but we and our children have successfully protected ourselves from it. The world around us is also filled with wonderful, wholesome, loveable people, full of beauty and intelligence and ideas and education, and our lives are filled with these people.

As for marriage and family: I have been married to the same beautiful, brilliant, wholesome, wonderful woman (advanced degrees, Phi Beta Kappa, et al.!) for 45 years! I'm the only man who has ever made love to her.

Each of my children has been through college three times. One's a successful engineer, in Mensa. One's a physician. All are Republicans!

I walked away from a prestigious job--and 6 million dollars worth of contracts--back in the early '90s when $6,000,000 was serious money. I have never regretted it.

I sent my children to private schools because the public schools were a mess. I didn't like it. I prefer public schools. My wife and I went to them. It was an excellent education in life--being thrown at random with all the people in the community around you. I helps build character. It also shows you what the world is like. I should have sent my children to public schools. I wish I had, but they turned out very well just the same.

I came from a poor family, worked my way through college, earned every penny I have. My wife was from a wealthy family, but we lived on what I could earn, slept on a box springs supported by concrete blocks, at on a card table, cooked on a hotplate. I payed for four years of college for my wife (her parents were dysfunctional).

I also paid for all my children's education, and I set up a college scholarship program for the indigent and sent I-don't-know-how-many people to college.

Because my mother had to drop out of college after her freshman year (her debonaire and well educated father was a horrible alcoholic), I got her though college too. She paid for it, but I enrolled with her, studied with her every night, and, dispite her lack of self-confidence, got her through the most difficult of courses, and she graduated!

Because I earned plenty of money, I gave my children everything and anything they wanted--expensive trips, gadgets, clothes, cars--you name it! It had a wonderful effect on them. You cannot overindulge a child too much IF you also instill good values, a strong sense of self-worth, and--above all--love them.

My children are the opposite of materialistic! They are not in the least interested in having "stuff". They are fascinated by things of the mind, love, wholesome relationships--all the things that my wife and I value.

However I am definitely a capitalist!

And I am definitely a Christian!

As far as the environment goes-- We have all been committed to protecting the environment for a long, long time. We all recycle regularly. Protect animals and the forests. Never pollute.

For a long time, my wife and I were enthusiastic about the "environmentalist movement". However, when I realized just what this is all about I recoiled in disgust.

I have never seen a more odious gang of sadistic bullies in one group as I have seen in the "environmentalist movement".

NEVER give one penny to an "environmentalist charity"!

This is the best rule of thumb: If the "environmentalists" are for it, oppose it; if they are against it, support it.

30 posted on 03/07/2006 7:23:15 AM PST by Savage Beast (Do not refer to Leftists as "Liberals;" there's nothing liberal about those people.)
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To: don-o; laney; goldstategop; netmilsmom; SC33; Capriole; stevio; GOPJ; SuziQ; D-Chivas; ...

Crunchy cons ping!


31 posted on 03/07/2006 7:29:29 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: cyborg

Crunchy ping!


32 posted on 03/07/2006 7:31:01 AM PST by Petronski (I love Cyborg!)
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To: GreenFreeper; EveningStar

Will there be a civil war between Crunchy Cons and South Park Republicans?


33 posted on 03/07/2006 7:31:49 AM PST by RightWingAtheist (Creationism Is Not Conservative!)
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To: Chanticleer; ConservativeMind; GreenFreeper; alwaysconservative; peacebaby

Crunchy cons ping!


34 posted on 03/07/2006 7:34:03 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: RightWingAtheist

You should send the story idea to SP!


35 posted on 03/07/2006 7:34:34 AM PST by GreenFreeper (Not blind opposition to progress, but opposition to blind progress)
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To: Petronski

Yep that's me! :-)


36 posted on 03/07/2006 7:36:34 AM PST by cyborg (I just love that man.)
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To: .cnI redruM

You have a problem with people not wanting to kill themselves striving to keep up with the Joneses? Most of the folks this article is about are simply tired of the rat race and chose to live a much simpler lifestyle. They are deeply convicted about raising their children with their values and making sure that they will be self sufficient leaders for their generation.

They don't want to infringe on anyone else's rights to live as they desire but they do want to be the best steward of all that has been entrusted to them, that is their family, health and finances.

Besides a lot of those crunchy cons have eschewed the tv altogether and make their children read or if old enough work doing chores, a job, or some other creative enterprise in their free time. Slouching in front of the tv is usually not an option.


37 posted on 03/07/2006 7:39:13 AM PST by CajunConservative (Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Jindal.)
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To: B-Chan

This may interest you.


38 posted on 03/07/2006 7:39:24 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sancte Joseph, terror daemonum, ora pro nobis!)
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To: Pyro7480; Savage Beast; All

Thanks for the ping, Pyro! And SB, what a great manifesto! In fact, all the comments on this thread are terrific (makes me proud to be a FReeper bump).


39 posted on 03/07/2006 7:43:04 AM PST by alwaysconservative (If you want something done, ask a busy person. The other kind has no time.)
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To: LongElegantLegs

Well said! While I don't like the name either, at least conservatives are debating ideas and ideology instead of following like sheep in that other party.

I had a cute line from a cartoon that I paraphrased to use as a tag, but it was too long. . .

"At first I became a vegetarian for health reasons, then I remained one for ethical reasons; now I am one just to tick people off" (LOL!)


40 posted on 03/07/2006 7:49:32 AM PST by alwaysconservative (When you want something done, ask a busy person. The other kind has no time.)
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To: Pyro7480

I do believe Christians should generally have a stronger propensity toward a more modest lifestyle. Conservatism, conservation, and Christianity naturally align toward the "crunchy con" mentality.

Thanks for the ping!


41 posted on 03/07/2006 8:08:23 AM PST by ConservativeMind
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To: Pyro7480
I guess I've been pegged as a Crunchy Con? That's alright, it's probably the best way to describe our family.
42 posted on 03/07/2006 8:09:49 AM PST by stevio (Red-Blooded American Male (NRA))
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To: Gefreiter

FYI, some of us aging hippie types are actually undercover. Which is kind of cool when a real relic starts talking to you because he thinks you're "one of them" and you get an open platform to rant. ;^)


43 posted on 03/07/2006 8:13:11 AM PST by stevio (Red-Blooded American Male (NRA))
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To: stevio

s,
Ha, well I've never met one but I bet that would be fun to see.


44 posted on 03/07/2006 8:23:16 AM PST by Gefreiter ("Are you drinking 1% because you think you're fat?")
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To: Mr. Silverback
I think there are many, many conservatives who at least partially fit the profile Colson is talking about.

For example, a majority of home-schoolers are conservative. But most have given up income and "stuff" to pursue something they believe is more important.

There is also a species of conservative I find puzzling and I'm sure others do as well. These are the conservatives who not only want to use natural resources for legitimate reasons, but only seem happy if resources are extracted with as much waste and destruction as possible. I'm talking about those who not only want to cut down the forest because human beings need wood, but want to cut down forests because they seem to get a kick out of it. A lot of these conservatives also seem offended by those who don't use every waking moment making money in order to buy "the latest version of the latest version". They seem to think of that as letting down the capitalism team.

I'm not sure how being smart and careful in using resources was ever disassociated with conservatism. It used to be a core value of conservatism.

45 posted on 03/07/2006 8:28:11 AM PST by Semi Civil Servant (The Main Stream Media: Al-Qaeda's most effective spy network.)
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To: austinrepub; Mr. Silverback
"..as conservative as you or anyone on the list."

I'm going for the most conservative on this thread. (Qualifications provided upon request)

And I recently joined "Smart Growth", I walk to work, walk to church, and even tolerate a few homosexuals that I know.

46 posted on 03/07/2006 8:31:18 AM PST by Designer (Just a nit-pick'n and chagrin'n)
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To: Designer

Almost forgot: I have planted over 17,000 trees, and about 24 acres of native prairie.


47 posted on 03/07/2006 8:35:03 AM PST by Designer (Just a nit-pick'n and chagrin'n)
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To: Designer
I'm going for the most conservative on this thread.

I would have a go; uh, what the definition of "conservative?"

I confess to being clueless these days.

48 posted on 03/07/2006 8:39:06 AM PST by don-o (Don't be a Freeploader. Do the right thing. Become a Monthly Donor!)
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To: don-o
"..what the definition of "conservative?"

Long-time member of and chapter leader in The John Birch Society. Now that will kill this thread, it is so conservative. Happens every time.

49 posted on 03/07/2006 8:51:53 AM PST by Designer (Just a nit-pick'n and chagrin'n)
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To: don-o

I believe being a *Conservative* has to do with a belief and lifestyle honoring GOD, Country and values that would be a one man one woman marraige, prayer in schools, stop abortion on demand, saluting the flag, that being said everyone has a different view on foods, drugs, discipline and health methods which is neither liberal or conservative.


50 posted on 03/07/2006 8:57:09 AM PST by laney ((For GOD so loved the world..John 3:16))
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