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Slobo’s Stooges
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | March 15, 2006 | Jacob Laksin

Posted on 03/16/2006 10:33:46 AM PST by West Coast Conservative

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To: Proctor
Of course the FRY attacked Slovenia. That doesn't mean they started the war. The North attacked Virginia in 1861 -- did they start the war? No. You misconstrued that statement and presumed it was a lie. But you must admit Serb (the FRY Army) did mount campaigns against Slovenia in 1995.

I have been abused by Serbian supporters on this forum before. I have been called a Moslem, a Soros supporter, and now the perpetrator of a damnable lie. None of these statements directed at me are true.
51 posted on 03/17/2006 12:25:56 PM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: GAB-1955
But you must admit Serb (the FRY Army) did mount campaigns against Slovenia in 1995.

That is also untrue - the Slovenians (egged on by Germany) fired on Yugoslav army barracks (first blood) - the Serbs fired back - and retreated.

I apologize for saying you read from Soro's script - I meant you were reading from Christiane Amanpour's script.

This article is about Milosevic's stooges. Who here can be labeled a Clinton stooge for accepting his adminsitrations false assertions?

52 posted on 03/17/2006 12:39:38 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: GAB-1955
Last, but not least I don't think Yugoslavia should have stayed as on as a nation.

I think the real criminals are those Western Europeans and their American think tank allies that wanted to have Yugoslavia break up along Tito-Communist drawn lines - lines drawn to weaken the Serbian people in the Communist regime because they were the most numerical.

Fear-panic among the Serbs that they will live under the not so tender mercies of Croats and Muslims caused them to react violently. I don't blame them at all.

53 posted on 03/17/2006 12:44:05 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Proctor
Kosovo was ethnic cleansed of Jews, Serbs, Gypsies, and others and has turned into a crime haven black hole.

Can't argue with that.

Your right Front Page has the right to examine both sides, I was disappointed and leery of the author, not angry. It seems surprising that people can forget white slavery, ransom kidnapping, heroin trafficking and children being tossed overboard to dissuade Italian authorities pursuit, and hundreds of police officers being ambush murdered.

54 posted on 03/17/2006 1:50:12 PM PST by Navy Patriot
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To: Proctor
That's still pretty strong and incorrect. I came up to my own conclusions based on what I've seen and read over the last 10 years. (No cable in my house, ever; the biggest influence is the London Daily Telegraph).

The fact that I appear more on the Clinton Administration's side on this doesn't mean I love that Administration. (In fact, I suffered personally in ways that you can't imagine at the hands of the Federal government under that Adminstration--but that's another story). Clinton was a dithering, poll-driven weakling who should have taken stronger measures in Somalia and Iraq, and definitely should have kicked the Europeans and U.N. to force a ceasefire earlier in the war and have a calming period. But he didn't, and the Balkans have to live with what they have.
55 posted on 03/17/2006 2:00:43 PM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: GAB-1955
Sir, (I assume if not my apologies)

You claimed the Serbs/Yugoslavs ATTACKED Slovenia - that is a lie the Slovenians attacked the Yugoslav army first and pretty much the Yugos carried out a fighting withdrawal in defense of their lives.

This was against a Yugoslav army that was still multi ethnic and made of conscripts.

That is the 'lie' I confronted you on.

56 posted on 03/17/2006 4:16:35 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Proctor

And since when did a difference in perception become a lie?


57 posted on 03/17/2006 6:02:34 PM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: GAB-1955

:) Afraid not, too much time, money and politics invested.


58 posted on 03/18/2006 3:17:48 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: PeterFinn

You have Bingo........:)


59 posted on 03/18/2006 3:19:07 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: GAB-1955
"The Serbian media has a BIG credibility gap, another legacy from Slobo" this is true, however, their media is more on the mark than the international media that still claims 8,000 Muslims were murdered by the Serbs and that the Rajak Massacre actually occured, which is not true. Almost none of the media in the U.S. or UK is credible. Media Cleansing:Dirty Reporting
60 posted on 03/18/2006 9:09:53 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: GAB-1955

Weasel words.


61 posted on 03/18/2006 10:40:26 AM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: GAB-1955; A. Pole
Welcome to the world of Orwell's 1984 when those that attack with arms first are called the victims of a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-Day_War

27 June 1991

(First blood) In the afternoon of 27 June, the Slovenian TO shot down two JNA helicopters over Ljubljana, killing the occupants (one of whom, ironically, was a Slovenian pilot).

The TO also took up position around JNA barracks in various locations, effectively besieging them, and launched a series of attacks on JNA forces across Slovenia. At Brnik, a TO unit attacked the JNA troops holding the airport, and at Trzin a firefight developed in which four JNA soldiers and one TO soldier were killed and the remainder of the JNA unit was forced to surrender. Attacks were also launched by Slovenian TO units on JNA tank columns at Pesnica, Ormoz and Koseze, near Ilirska Bistrica.

---------------------

I think the fact that the war ended quickly with Yugoslavs kind of mislead the Euros and Clinton era State Dept hacks into thinking that would be the result throughout Yugoslavia. They did not have the foresight to realize that if Yugoslavia was torn apart in areas where there was overlap in ethnic peoples who have a history of tension with each other (and cultural/religious incompatibility) there would be bloody fighting.

In my opinion, that is the unintended consequences of the Slovenian war that fooled the West into a full steam on drive to break up Yugoslavia without much thought.

62 posted on 03/18/2006 10:52:20 AM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Navy Patriot

I'm surprised that David Horowitz would let his magazine
be used for one sided propaganda.


63 posted on 03/18/2006 11:12:49 AM PST by duckln
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To: GAB-1955; tgambill
What's worse, burnt churches or dead bodies?

Speak to Tom Gambill, who lived in Kosovo over 4 years, about that. He says dead bodies of Serbs are showing up and they are being gradually snuffed out. 1500 Serb CIVILIANS (mainly elderly) were killed within 2 or 3 years after NATO took control and allowed the Albanians to kill with impunity.

Media is silent on kidnapping and systematic murder of Serbs.

64 posted on 03/18/2006 12:39:17 PM PST by joan
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To: joan; GAB-1955

First of all, there shouldn't be a choice. It's not an either/or situation. The burned Churches also means there will be dead bodies. The Churches should not be burned in the first place. March 17-18, 2004, was well organized. It was the first time a riot of this level occurred. The riots happened under a false pretense, first of all. Point is, people died from the violence. On March 18, it was designated burn churches this day. The burned churches meant that they have virtually no control over the events in Kosovo due to the corrupt system which also includes participation of the international community.

After the "retaliation killings" of Serbs, began a systematic targeting of Serbs. One case in point, in my region, an old man and woman was murdered by the Black Eagles, (Albanian Terrorist group) Post 1999. As a result, the entire village packed up and left.......in a few days.

Very few if any arrests were made. If any arrests were made the perp(s) were usually released for lack of evidence or no witnesses. It was frustrating to the CivPol because many perps were caught, and any evidence was mitigated by one excuse or another.

The media has been silent about the murdered Serbs........and violence that has occurred not only to Serbs but also to moderate Albanians who belonged to the LDK.


65 posted on 03/18/2006 3:24:21 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Proctor
I didn't get your response until late today. However, as I was working on something else, I recall that the version I remember came from the Slovenes. The account stated that yes, they seized the arsenals and factories making the weapons first, but only when the Serbs moved to counter this did actual shooting begin. So, it appears that the definition of aggression depends on who made the first threatening moves. Was it Slovenia in a seizure of the arsenals, or the JNA in moving in, or the Slovenes in shooting first?

I understand your strong feelings, but I wouldn't apply the word "Orwellian." Rather, it's the same distinction that happens in every civil war; was the act of secession the act of aggression, or the countering move by the central government the act of aggression?

I have no dog in this fight, but I do believe that had the Serbians had the attitude they show now, that it was a three-way or six way civil war, they would have more international sympathy. I do hope that things remain stable there.
66 posted on 03/18/2006 8:03:29 PM PST by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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To: GAB-1955
So, it appears that the definition of aggression depends on who made the first threatening moves.

Was it Slovenia in a seizure of the arsenals, The answer to that is a clear yes.

or the JNA in moving in, The answer to that is no.

or the Slovenes in shooting first? The answer to that is also yes.

My strong feelings are based on getting the truth out. I saw under Clinton an Orwellian demonization of a people (I am not a Serb) that did not bode well for the future. Clearly, the result of that was 9/11 - since support for Muslims by the State Dept allowed a network to develop in the world that reached into the USA that enabled 9/11 to happen. At least two of the 9/11 killers were vets of the Bosnian Muslim army.

Truth and lies have consequences.

67 posted on 03/18/2006 10:49:38 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Proctor

Well said, Proctor.

The artiecle, "Slobo's Stooges" manages to avoid any mention of either "BIN LADEN", "IRANIAN VEVAK" or "MUJAHIDEEN" which I must admit is some feat.

Maybe all Hitchens, etc. should be known as "BIN LADEN'S STOOGES".


68 posted on 03/19/2006 2:16:47 AM PST by infidel_and_proud
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To: infidel_and_proud

"Maybe all Hitchens, etc. should be known as "BIN LADEN'S STOOGES".

That should've read,

"Maybe Laksin , Hitchens, etc. should be known as "BIN LADEN'S STOOGES".

My apologies.


69 posted on 03/19/2006 2:19:01 AM PST by infidel_and_proud
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To: Lx
Does anyone have a link to the proof of 250,000 dead in mass graves?

The UN said it was true - what's to question?
70 posted on 03/19/2006 2:22:24 AM PST by Pro-Bush (One sees great things from the valley, only small things from the peak.)
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To: Proctor
Okay, I registered to reply in this thread :) Slovenia and Yugoslavia... the conflict known as the 10 day war; aka Slovenian war aka Slovenian war of independence,... It wasn't just Slovenia Vs Serbia; it was Slovenia VS Jugoslav National Army (JNA). The fault for the conflict can't be laid at serbian feet... at least not completely (since the JNA command was composed of a multi-national staff... although serb&ppl from montenegro were in majority). some records of 10 day war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-Day_War http://www.answers.com/topic/ten-day-war http://www.uvi.si/10years/path/war/ In one of your previous posts you stated that the war started on the 27th of June... with Slovenian TO shooting down jugoslav helicopters. The war actually started on the 26th of June (since you copy pasted from wikipedia... you might at least have added the first day: "On the morning of 26 June, units of the Yugoslav People's Army's 13th Corps left their barracks in Rijeka, Croatia to move towards Slovenia's borders with Italy. The move immediately led to a strong reaction from local Slovenians, who organised spontaneous barricades and demonstrations against the JNA's actions. There was, as yet, no fighting, and both sides appeared to have an unofficial policy of not being the first to open fire." Or even the 25th of June: "On 25 June 1991 the Federal Executive Council convened in Belgrade. It issued a decree for the protection of the national borders in Slovenia, which gave the YPA and federal police forces the green light for an armed attack on Slovenia." <---this text also disaprooves that it was a slovenian who shot first... it states that the first shot was fired on 26th of june at 14:30 in Divača by a YPA officer, as a threat to the Slovenian demonstrators. Of course you can disaproove that since it comes from a slovenian official site; but I have yet to find a site to claim anything else. And before you ask... yes I am slovenian, but I'm also 1/4 serb if we look at the geneology. The Yugoslav wars were a bad thing for the region... Slovenia came out of it barely scratched (after we had 4945 yugoslav army and federal police members they simply backed off)... it was croatia and bosnia where blood flowed. We did what we could... (accepted 250.000 refugees mostly bosnian muslims from the years 92-95... and we have 2 mil total population) and now we have peacekeeping forces in bosnia. To make it short... Yugoslavia was a set of unfortunate incidents, there is no single side at fault here [you could even say that the west is at fault since it didn't want to pressure Yugoslavia to break up peacefully - rather they told slovenians that even if we managed to seceed from yugoslavia we wouldn't be recognised for the next 20 years... we joined the UN by 22 may 92]. Kosovo was a bloodbath for both sides... neither side is holy and both sides did things that should never have been done; but then again it's the history of the place that caused it. Kosovo isn't a 10 or 20 year old conflict... Kosovo conflict started in WWI when serbs slaughtered a whole lot of indogenous ppl... or even before with the turks,... You see, you can go into past for as long as you want, that place was always bloody (Battle of Kosovo in 1389), and it won't be peacefull for a long long while. But it's better atm than it was before the intervention - I've spoken to our soldiers there (and with our soldiers who got back from afghanistan like a week ago :) ); there are conflicts, but people mostly stick to their ethnic group rather than killing each other.
71 posted on 03/19/2006 5:17:54 AM PST by Aker
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To: Aker

Sorry for the messy text... didn't realize the html conditions, so here it goes again

Okay, I registered to reply in this thread :)

Slovenia and Yugoslavia... the conflict known as the 10 day war; aka Slovenian war aka Slovenian war of independence,... It wasn't just Slovenia Vs Serbia; it was Slovenia VS Jugoslav National Army (JNA). The fault for the conflict can't be laid at serbian feet... at least not completely (since the JNA command was composed of a multi-national staff... although serb&ppl from montenegro were in majority).


some records of 10 day war:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-Day_War
www.answers.com/topic/ten-day-war
www.uvi.si/10years/path/war/

In one of your previous posts you stated that the war started on the 27th of June... with Slovenian TO shooting down jugoslav helicopters. The war actually started on the 26th of June (since you copy pasted from wikipedia... you might at least have added the first day:

"On the morning of 26 June, units of the Yugoslav People's Army's 13th Corps left their barracks in Rijeka, Croatia to move towards Slovenia's borders with Italy. The move immediately led to a strong reaction from local Slovenians, who organised spontaneous barricades and demonstrations against the JNA's actions. There was, as yet, no fighting, and both sides appeared to have an unofficial policy of not being the first to open fire."

Or even the 25th of June: "On 25 June 1991 the Federal Executive Council convened in Belgrade. It issued a decree for the protection of the national borders in Slovenia, which gave the YPA and federal police forces the green light for an armed attack on Slovenia." <---this text also disaprooves that it was a slovenian who shot first... it states that the first shot was fired on 26th of june at 14:30 in Divaca by a YPA officer, as a threat to the Slovenian demonstrators.

Of course you can disaproove that since it comes from a slovenian official site; but I have yet to find a site to claim anything else. And before you ask... yes I am slovenian, but I'm also 1/4 serb if we look at the geneology.

The Yugoslav wars were a bad thing for the region... Slovenia came out of it barely scratched (after we had 4945 yugoslav army and federal police members they simply backed off)... it was croatia and bosnia where blood flowed. We did what we could... (accepted 250.000 refugees mostly bosnian muslims from the years 92-95... and we have 2 mil total population which beat us down economically) and now we have peacekeeping forces in bosnia.


To make it short... Yugoslavia was a set of unfortunate incidents, there is no single side at fault here (you could even say that the west is at fault since it didn't want to pressure Yugoslavia to break up peacefully - rather they told slovenians that even if we managed to seceed from yugoslavia we wouldn't be recognised for the next 20 years... we joined the UN by 22 may 92).

Kosovo was a bloodbath for both sides... neither side is holy and both sides did things that should never have been done; but then again it's the history of the place that caused it. Kosovo isn't a 10 or 20 year old conflict... Kosovo conflict started in WWI when serbs slaughtered a whole lot of indogenous ppl... or even before with the turks,... You see, you can go into past for as long as you want, that place was always bloody (Battle of Kosovo in 1389), and it won't be peacefull for a long long while. But it's better atm than it was before the intervention - I've spoken to our soldiers there (and with our soldiers who got back from afghanistan like a week ago :) ); there are conflicts, but people mostly stick to their ethnic group rather than killing each other.


72 posted on 03/19/2006 5:51:34 AM PST by Aker
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To: Aker
Yes, your post was messy to read.

Yugoslav troops moved to the borders with Italy but only after Slovenia was hinting at leaving the federation.

The Yugoslav army at this time was not the Serbian army - if there were more Serbs in the army at this time is because they were the majority in Yugoslavia.

The Slovenians drew first blood - probably they felt enboldened because the Germans said they would back them up against Yugoslavia.

The Serbians had no history with the Slovenians - the Serbs did have fearful history under Croatian and Muslim rule.

After Slovenia the Serbs realizing Yugoslavia may be over then went into defense mode - trying to protect Serbs against the Croats and Muslims who were so evil to the Serbs in generations past. Anyone who denies this was so is a liar.

The West - and by that I mean mostly Germany and some agenda driven State Dept hacks fooled themselves over what happened in Slovenia thinking since it was so quick and relatively blood free that if they could do the same in Croatia and Bosnia - they fooled themselves into not realizing that the Serbs would fight to the death rather than be ruled by Muslims and Croatian Nazis.

73 posted on 03/19/2006 11:59:39 AM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Proctor

Slovenia wasn't just hinting about leaving, the choice was made a year before we actually seceeded; voter turnout at the plebiscite was 93.2 percent, with 88.2 percent voting for an independent and sovereign Slovenia.


It's not like we didn't try to do things politically before, for the better part of the 80's we tried to change yugoslavia into a confederation. Slovenia couldn't last in a federation anymore, certain generals were making statemens like "we'll move all the slovenians into kosovo and vice versa". An ancient nation like ours couldn't be forced into another millenia of being subjugated to another nation.

Yugoslavian army prepared for war, we just beat them at their own game... for us sending even more yugoslav troops into Slovenia was a definite threath to our independence.
All in all, it could have been better, yugoslav army could have just respected our desire for independence... but it also could have been worse, for example if those planes which were sent to bombard Ljubljana actually came to Slovenia (which they didn't, cause mesic stopped the planes and recalled them back to their airports, otherwise the civilian casualties would have been much worse).

Yugoslavia was nearly unbearable in the last years, it wasn't the politicians who had the actual control, it was the army; army generals who only knew how to make theaths. The first shots between TO (slovenian territorial defence) and JNA were fired at Pekre (TO's study centre) long before the war even began.

http://www.uvi.si/10years/path/chronology/ <----read the first part and you'll understand a part of the reason why Yugoslavia fell apart


74 posted on 03/19/2006 1:23:02 PM PST by Aker
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To: Aker
What you seem to be getting around is the fact that Slovenia fired the first shots. I wanted to point that out to another freeper who said the Serbs invaded Slovenia and started the fighting there first.

The American South wanted to break from the Federal govt as well - I would be a hypocrite as an American to then state that the Yugoslavs had no right to try and prevent the secession of the various states that made up Yugoslavia.

And just like in America - the secessionists fired first.

75 posted on 03/19/2006 3:39:15 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Proctor

Pekre:
The Day of the Slovenian Armed Forces is celebrated to mark 15 May 1991. On this day, the first class of Slovenian conscripts arrived at training centres at Ig near Ljubljana, and Pekre near Maribor. This meant the fulfilment of the constitutional law adopted by the Slovenian parliament on 8 March 1991. The provisions of this law stipulated that it was no longer obligatory for Slovenian citizens to do military service in the then Yugoslav People’s Army. The first class of 300 soldiers swore their allegiance to the country on June 2, 1991. The Yugoslav Army (YA) and the political authorities at the high est level were strongly against this decision. Both training centres were protected by special Territorial Defence protection units. As early as a week after the arrival of the conscripts, on 23 May, the YA special forces with their armour vehicles provoked an incident in the immediate surroundings of the training centre in Maribor, as a pretext to attack the facility. The Slovenian leadership offered a resolute response. This was the first time the telephone lines and the electricity in the concerned military installations were cut. The tension and anti-YA attitude of the population was escalating, especially after 24 May, when a military armour vehicle ran over a local, Josef Simik in Pekre, thus causing the first civilian casualty. The events in Pekre were a prelude to the war for independence that started on 25 June 1991.

Josef wasn't shot... he got overran by a tank as he tried to block the doors at the JNA barracks with his body (Tienmann anyone?).
Btw, where did you get the info that a slovenian shot first? Everything that I've read so far states that a yugoslav started by shooting against the civilian demonstrators.


76 posted on 03/19/2006 10:12:54 PM PST by Aker
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To: Aker

Besieging is an act of war. Shooting down a helicopter is an act of war.


77 posted on 03/20/2006 6:54:08 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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