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Kosovo May Explode -- Here
CNSNews.com Commentary ^ | March 16, 2006 | Julia Gorin

Posted on 03/18/2006 5:46:16 PM PST by tgambill

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To: Hoplite; zagor-te-nej; Lion in Winter; Honorary Serb; jb6; Incorrigible; DTA; ma bell; joan; ...

Hey pancake-boy, got some bad news for ya!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, time for you to attack Julie Gorin for speaking the truth.


51 posted on 03/18/2006 7:25:25 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Lion in Winter

That's the ticket, use a bunch of caps.


52 posted on 03/18/2006 7:26:58 PM PST by bkepley
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To: bkepley

So you can't repudiate a single thing he said, eh?


53 posted on 03/18/2006 7:34:24 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Cicero
But I have yet to hear a single Republican politician or influential conservative pundit say it.

I have heard Michael Savage vehemently discuss our Kosovo betrayal/blunder on air at least two times. He does a really great job of communicating the history of this thing

I'd like to see him tackle a campaign against the handover of Kosovo to al qaeda. With his broadcast reach, I'll bet he could turn up a lot of heat on the "beltway" a$$holes that are pushing for handover. Maybe he would tackle this if he heard from enough freepers.

I would like to see Bush veto any handover and grant authority to the Yugoslav army to resume operational juridiction in the province. With the Serbs tearing al qaeda a new a$$hole in Kosovo, this would create a 3rd front in the WOT and draw back a lot of the jihadist vermin from Iraq and Afghanistan to fight the Serbs.

54 posted on 03/18/2006 7:36:59 PM PST by kimosabe31
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To: bkepley; FormerLib
I AM yelling at you, so you can understand!!

Thus the use of capital letters

Does it hurt your feelings?

oh, boo hoo baby.

No, Former lib... he simply needs some cheese with his whine....

55 posted on 03/18/2006 7:37:34 PM PST by Lion in Winter (The older I am the more I want people to wake up and smell the coffee 'bout violent religions)
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To: kimosabe31
Ah, yes islamics fighting the Serbs.

But the MSM would whine and grind the teeth and cry for the poor widdle innocent islamic monsters who would beting get their a$$es kicked but good!

Now, I would LOVE to see that action. Heck, I would love to join-in the a$$ kicking! How about you???

56 posted on 03/18/2006 7:42:11 PM PST by Lion in Winter (The older I am the more I want people to wake up and smell the coffee 'bout violent religions)
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To: FormerLib

Pancake boy?? I thought he was a crepe filled with cheese!!


57 posted on 03/18/2006 7:43:46 PM PST by Lion in Winter (The older I am the more I want people to wake up and smell the coffee 'bout violent religions)
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To: Lion in Winter

oh, boo hoo baby.

oh, boo hoo baby.


58 posted on 03/18/2006 7:45:01 PM PST by bkepley
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To: bkepley

Why are YOU such a little WUSS... clinton supporter perhaps????


59 posted on 03/18/2006 7:47:57 PM PST by Lion in Winter (The older I am the more I want people to wake up and smell the coffee 'bout violent religions)
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To: tgambill

Address by Bat Ye'or

Ladies and gentlemen:

My subject this evening is: Myths and Politics: Origin of the Myth of a Tolerant Pluralistic Islamic Society. I stress the world "tolerant," which was omitted from the program.

Ten years ago, when I came to America for the launching of my book: "The Dhimmi, Jews And Christians Under Islam," I was struck by the inscription on the Archives Building in Washington: "Past is Prologue." I had thought, at least at the beginning of my research, that my subject related to a remote past, but I realized that contemporary events were rapidly modernizing this past. Muslim countries where Islamic law -- the Shari'a -- had been replaced by modern juridic, imposed by the European colonizing powers, were abandoning the secularizing trend, replacing it with Islamization in numerous sectors of life. This impression of the return of the past became even more acute when I was working on my next book, published in 1991, the English edition of which will appear in a few months under the title, "The Decline Of Eastern Christianity Under Islam - 7th To 20th Century: From Jihad To Dhimmitude."

In this study, I tried to analyze the numerous processes that had transformed rich, powerful Christian civilizations into Islamic lands and their long-term effects, which had reduced native Christian majorities into scattered small religious minorities, now slowly disappearing. This complex Islamization process of Christian lands and civilizations on both shores of the Mediterranean - and in Irak and Armenia - I have called: the process of "dhimmitude" and the civilization of those peoples who underwent such transformation, I have named the civilization of "dhimmitude".

The indigenous native peoples were Jews and Christians: Orthodox, Catholics, or from other Eastern Christian Churches. They are all referred to by Muslim jurists as the "Peoples of the Book" - the Book being the Bible - and are subjected to the same condition according to Islamic law. They are called dhimmis: protected peoples, because Islamic law protects their life and goods on condition that they submit to Islamic rule.

I will not go into details here for this is a very long and complex subject, but in order to understand the Serbian situation one should know that the Serbs were treated during half a millennium just like the other Christian and Jewish Dhimmis. They participated in this civilization of dhimmitude. It is important to understand that the civilization of dhimmitude grows from two religious institutions: Jihad and Shari'a, which establish a particular ideological system that makes it mandatory - during the jihad operation -- to use terror, mass killings, deportation and slavery. And the Serbs -- because I am speaking of them tonight -- did not escape from this fate, which was the same for all the populations around the Mediterranean basin, vanquished by Jihad. For centuries, the Serbs fought to liberate their land from the laws of Jihad and of Shari'a, which had legalized their condition of oppression.

So while I was analyzing and writing about the processes of dhimmitude and the civilization of dhimmitude, while listening to the radio, watching television, reading the newspapers, I had the uncomfortable feeling that the clock was being turned back.

Modern politicians, sophisticated writers -- using phones, planes, computers and all the modern techniques -- seemed to be returning several centuries back, with wigs or stiff collars, using exactly the same corrupting arguments, the same tortuous short-term politics that had previously contributed to the gradual Islamization of numerous non-Muslim peoples. I had to shake myself in an effort to distinguish the past from the present.

So, is the past always prologue? Are we doomed to remain always prisoners of the same errors? Certainly, if we do not know the past. And this past -- the long and agonizing process of Christian annihilation by the laws of Jihad and dhimmitude -- is a taboo history, not only in Islamic lands, but above all in the West. It has been buried beneath a myth, fabricated by Western politicians and religious leaders, in order to promote their own national strategic and economic interests.

Curiously, this myth started in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 19th century. It alleges that Turkish rule over Christians in its European provinces was just and lawful. That the Ottoman regime, being Islamic, was naturally "tolerant" and well disposed toward its Christian subjects; that its justice was fair, and that safety for life and goods was guaranteed to Christians by Islamic laws. Ottoman rule was brandished as the most suitable regime to rule Christians of the Balkans.

This theory was advanced by European politicians in order to safeguard the balance of power in Europe, and in order to block the Russian advance towards the Mediterranean. To justify the maintenance of the Turkish yoke on the Slavs it was portrayed as a model for a multi-ethnical and multi-religious empire. Of course, the reality was totally different! First the Ottoman Empire was created by centuries of Jihad against Christian populations; consequently the rules of Jihad, elaborated by Arab-Muslim theologians from the 8th to the 10th centuries, applied to the subjected Christian and Jewish populations of the Turkish Islamic dominions. Those regulations are integrated into the Islamic legislation concerning the non-Muslim vanquished peoples and consequently they present a certain homogeneity throughout the Arab and Turkish empires.

The civilization of dhimmitude in which the Serbs participated had many aspects that evolved with changing political situations. In the 1830s, forced by the European powers, the Ottomans adopted a series of reforms aiming at ending the oppression of the Christians.

In the Serbian regions, the most fanatical opponents of Christian emancipation were the Muslims Bosniaks. They fought against the Christian right to possess lands and, in legal matters, to have equal rights as themselves. They pretended that under the old system that gave them full domination over the Christians, Muslims and Christians had lived for centuries in a convivial fraternity. And this argument is still used today by [Bosnian Muslim] President Izetbegovic and others. He repeatedly affirms that the 500 years of Christian dhimmitude was a period of peace and religious harmony.

Let us now confront the myth with reality. A systematic enquiry into the condition of the Christians was conducted by British consuls in the Ottoman Empire in the 1860s. Britain was then Turkey's strongest ally. It was in its own interest to see that the oppression of the Christians would be eliminated in order to prevent any Russian or Austrian interference. Consul James Zohrab sent from Bosna-Serai (Sarajevo) a lengthy report, dated July 22, 1860, to his ambassador in Constantinople, Sir Henry Bulwer, in which he analyzed the administration of the provinces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He stated that from 1463 to 1850 the Bosniak Muslims enjoyed all the privileges of feudalism. During a period of nearly 300 years Christians were subjected to much oppression and cruelty. For them no other law but the caprice of their masters existed.

The Devshirme system is well known. Begun by the Sultan Orkhan (1326-1359), it existed for about 300 years. It consisted of a regular levy of Christian children from the Christian population of the Balkans. These youngsters, aged from fourteen to twenty, were Islamized and enslaved for their army. The periodic levies, which took place in contingents of a thousand, subsequently became annual. To discourage runaways, children were transferred to remote provinces and entrusted to Muslim soldiers who treated them harshly as slaves. Another parallel recruitment system operated. It provided for the levy of Christian children aged six to ten (Ichoghlani), reserved for the sultans' palace. Entrusted to eunuchs, they underwent a tyrannical training for fourteen years. (A system of enslaving Black Christian and Animist children, similar to the Devshirme, existed in Sudan as is shown from documents to be published in my book. A sort of Devshirme system still exists today in Sudan and has been described and denounced by the United Nations Special Report on Sudan and in a recent article last Friday's Times of London.)

In 1850, the Bosniak Muslims opposed the authority of the Sultan and the reforms, but were defeated by the Sultan's army aided by the Christians who hoped that their position would thereby improve, "but they hardly benefited." Moreover, despite their assistance to the sultan's army, Christians were disarmed, while the Muslims who fought the sultan could retain weapons. Christians remained oppressed as before, Consul Zobrab writes about the reforms: "I can safely say, they practically remain a dead letter."

Discussing the impunity granted to the Muslims by the sultan, Zohrab wrote:

[Quote from Consul Zobrab starts here]

"This impunity, while it does not extend to permitting the Christians to be treated as they formerly were treated, is so far unbearable and unjust in that it permits the Muslims to despoil them with heavy exactions. Under false accusations imprisonments are of daily occurrence. A Christian has but a small chance of exculpating himself when his opponent is a Muslim."

"Christians are now permitted to possess real property, but the obstacles which they meet with when they attempt to acquire it are so many and vexatious that very few have as yet dared to brave them. Although a Christian can buy land and take possession it is when he has got his land into order [...] that the Christian feels the helplessness of his position and the insincerity of the Government. [Under any pretext] "the Christian is in nineteen cases out of twenty dispossessed, and he may then deem himself fortunate if he gets back the price he gave."

[Quote from Zobrab ends here]

Commenting on this situation, the consul [Zobrab] writes:

"Such being, generally speaking, the course pursued by the Government towards the Christians in the capital of the province Sarajevo where the Consular Agents of the different Powers reside and can exercise some degree of control, it may easily be guessed to what extend the Christians, in the remoter districts, suffer who are governed by Mudirs generally fanatical."

He continues:

[Quote from Consul Zobrab starts here]

"Christian evidence in the Medjlises (tribunal) as a rule is refused. Knowing this, the Christians generally come forward prepared with Mussulman witnesses (...), twenty years ago, it is true, they had no laws beyond the caprice of their landlords."

"Cases of oppression are frequently the result of Mussulman fanaticism, but for these the Government must be held responsible, for if offenders were punished, oppression would of necessity became rare."

[Quote from Consul Zobrab ends here]

In the spring of 1861 the sultan announced new reforms in Herzegovina, promising among other things freedom to build churches, the use of church bells and the opportunity for Christians to acquire land.

Commenting on this, Consul William Holmes in Bosna-Serai writes to Ambassador Sir Henry Bulwer that those promises rarely applied. He mentions that the Serbs, the biggest community, were refused the right to build a church in Bosna-Serai. Concerning the right to buy land, he writes,

"Every possible obstacle is still thrown in the way of the purchase of lands by Christians, and very often after they have succeeded in purchasing and improving land, it is no secret that on one unjust pretext or another, it has been taken from them."

Consul Longworth writes, from Belgrade on 1860 that by its Edicts,

"[The] Government may hasten such a reform but I question very much whether more evil than good will not arise from proclaiming a social equality which is, in the present stage of things and relations of society, morally impossible."

The biggest problem, in fact, was the refusal to accept either Christian or Jewish testimony in Islamic tribunals.

Consul Longworth comments on "the lax and vicious principle acted upon in the Mussulman Courts, where, as the only means of securing justice to Christians, Mussulman false witnesses are permitted to give evidence on their behalf."

The situation didn't change, and in 1875 the Grand Vizier Mahmud Pasha admitted to the British Ambassador in Constantinople, Sir Henry Elliot, the "impossibility of allowing Christian testimony at courts of justice in Bosnia." Thus, the Ambassador noted: "The professed equality of Christians and Mussulmans is, however, so illusory so long as this distinction is maintained."

This juridical situation had serious consequences due to the system of justice, as he explained:

"This is a point [the refusal of testimony] of much importance to the Christians, for, as the religious courts neither admit documentary nor written evidence, nor receive Christian evidence, they could hope for little justice from them."

The difficulty of imposing reforms in such a vast empire provoked this disillusioned comment from Sir Francis, consul-general, judge at the British Consular Court in 1875 Constantinople:

"Indeed, the modern perversion of the Oriental idea of justice is a concession to a suitor through grace and favor, and not the declaration of a right, on principles of law, and in pursuance of equity."

From Consul Blunt writing from Pristina on 14 July 1860 to Ambassador Bulwer, we learn about the situation in the province of Macedonia:

[Quote from Consult Blunt starts here]

"[...] For a long time the province of Uscup [Skopje, Macedonia] has been a prey to brigandage: [...] Christian churches and monasteries, towns and inhabitants, are now pillaged, massacred, and burnt by [Muslim] Albanian hordes as used to be done ten years ago."

"The Christians are not allowed to carry arms. This, considering the want of a good police, exposes them the more to attacks from brigands." "Christian evidence in law suits between a Mussulman and a non-Mussulman is not admitted in the Local Courts."

[Quote from Consult Blunt ends here]

Ten years before he said:

"Churches were not allowed to be built; and one can judge of the measure of toleration practiced at that time by having had to creep under doors scarcely four feet high. It was an offense to smoke and ride before a Turk; to cross his path, or not stand up before him, was equally wrong."

Fifteen years later, in another report from Bosna-Serai, dated December 30, 1875, from consul Edward Freeman, we learn that the Bosnian Muslims had sent a petition to the sultan stating that before the reforms, "they lived as brother with the Christian population." In fact, wrote the Consul, "their aim appears to [be to] reduce the Christians to their former ancient state of serfdom." So once again we go back to the myth. When reading the literature of the time, we see that the obstruction to Serbian, Greek and other Christian liberation movement was rooted in two main arguments:

1) Christian Dhimmis are congenitally unfitted for independence and self-government. They should therefore remain under the Islamic rule.

2) The Ottoman rule is a perfect model for a multi-religious and multi-ethnical society.

Indeed these are theological Islamic arguments that justify the Jihad since all non-Muslim people should not retain political independence because their laws are evil and must be eventually replaced by Islamic rule. We find the same reasoning in the Palestinian 1988 Covenant of the Hamas. Those arguments are very common in the theological and legal literature and are exposed by modern Islamists.




Collusion




The myth didn't die with the collapse of the Turkish Empire after World War I. Rather it took another form: that of the National Arab Movement, which promoted an Arab society where Christians and Muslims would live in perfect harmony. Once again, this was the fabrication of European politicians, writers and clergyman. And in the same way as the myth of the Ottoman political paradise was created to block the independence of the Balkan nations, so the Arab multi-religious fraternity was an argument to destroy the national liberation of non-Arab peoples of the Middle East (Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Maronites and Zionists.)

And although from the beginning of this century until the 1930s, a stream of Christian refugees were fleeing massacres and genocide on the roads of Turkey, Irak and Syria, the myth continued to flourish, sustained mostly by Arab writers and clergyman. After the Israelis had succeeded in liberating their land from the laws of Jihad and Dhimmitude, the myth reappeared in the form of a multi-cultural and multi-religious fraternal Palestine which had to replace the State of Israel (Cf. Arafat's 1975 UN speech). Its pernicious effects led to the destruction of the Christians in Lebanon. One might have thought that the myth would end there.

But suddenly the recent crisis in Yugoslavia offered a new chance for its reincarnation in a multi-religious Muslim Bosnian state. What a chance! A Muslim state again in the heartland of Europe. And we know the rest, the sufferings, the miseries, the trials of the war that this myth once again brought in its wake.

To conclude, I would like to say a few last words. The civilization of dhimmitude does not develop all at once. It is a long process that involves many elements and a specific conditioning. It happens when peoples replace history by myths, when they fight to uphold these destructive myths, more then their own values because they are confused by having transformed lies into truth. They hold to those myths as if they were the only guarantee of their survival, when, in fact, they are the path to destruction. Terrorized by the evidence and teaching of history, those peoples preferred to destroy it rather than to face it. They replace history with childish tales, thus living in amnesia.

** End of speech **

About the author: Madam Bat Ye'or, author and scholar, was born in Egypt. A British citizen living in Switzerland, she is a specialist on Dhimmis and 'Dhimmitude,' a word she has coined, and the subject of her pioneer research for the past thirty-four years. She is author, since 1971, of numerous articles on non-Muslims under Islamic rule

For A list of Bat Ye'or's books and articles, go to http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_bycv.php


60 posted on 03/18/2006 7:52:22 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Lion in Winter

I'm rubber and you're glue.


61 posted on 03/18/2006 7:52:27 PM PST by bkepley
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To: Peter Libra
Just to clarify Christianne Amanpour's connection to the White House - her husband was Jaimie Rubin, Asst. Secretary of State. The Clinton Whitehouse set the scenario, and Rubin's wife delivered the phony stories.

I remember it all so well, because it was the first war that I was ever against . . .
62 posted on 03/18/2006 7:53:40 PM PST by horse_doc
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To: eleni121
I think we made a grievous mistake in hindsight and was never comfortable with what we were doing at the time. People in-the-know seemed to think it was the right thing to do. Now I believe they were wrong.

Most ordinary Americans probably didn't care about one side or the other since neither had much of a presence in America. Few of us knew the historical conflicts in the region other than Sarajevo that sparked WWI.

I can't remember where the pope was on this one. Certainly nothing like with Iraq.

I don't know where it will end. I see our troops getting out of Iraq before troops leave that region. You simply cannot force people to get along together who have ethnic conflicts with guns and bombs. You just kill a bunch of people and make their life harder than it already was. The resentments are worse than ever AFAIAC.

63 posted on 03/18/2006 7:59:09 PM PST by Aliska
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To: frannie
I hope you are right. When you read the history of the Muslims and the Serbs we had no right to interfere. It wasn't just like "Bill" told us. It, IMHO was a wag the dog scenario. The Serbs will need some one to back them up and from the way our State Dept. and the President [I back him ALMOST 100%]are talking they are not taking the Serbs side nor is any of the EU countries.

I never believe anything I hear.. or half of what I see. Anyway.. I can't figure why Socialists from the West and those from the East don't care for each other. Maybe family fued?? Inquiring minds would like to know..

64 posted on 03/18/2006 8:52:38 PM PST by glowworm ( Liberal thot is truly a mental condition...)
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To: kimosabe31
Bush veto any handover and grant authority to the Yugoslav army to resume operational juridiction in the province. With the Serbs tearing al qaeda a new a$$hole in Kosovo, this would create a 3rd front in the WOT and draw back a lot of the jihadist vermin from Iraq and Afghanistan to fight the Serbs...

..Thereby vindicating Slobodan's position on the war against the islamists. That would be a very fitting sign of our acceptance to admit our failure by the Clinton admins foreign policy.

I wouldn't mind seeing some hanging from the gallows though...
65 posted on 03/18/2006 9:47:15 PM PST by bayouranger (The 1st victim of islam is the person who practices the lie.)
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To: tgambill

God bless you for handing over your documents to this good people.


66 posted on 03/18/2006 10:40:43 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: Incorrigible; A. Pole

fyi


67 posted on 03/18/2006 10:44:36 PM PST by Proctor (http://www.historyofjihad.org)
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To: tgambill

clinton Legacy Bump!


68 posted on 03/18/2006 10:51:56 PM PST by F-117A
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To: tgambill
For the past four years The Hague's International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia has been finding what multiple international forensics teams have found, that claims of Serb "atrocities" were exaggerated and often invented. It turns out we confused an attempt to create an Islamic "Greater Albania" with one to create a "Greater Serbia."

Imagine that...

69 posted on 03/18/2006 11:10:49 PM PST by Fruitbat
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To: agrace

Ugh! Excuse me while I vomit!


70 posted on 03/18/2006 11:24:00 PM PST by blinachka (Vechnaya Pamyat Daddy... xoxo)
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To: tgambill
[Russia and China pledge not to block new Kosovo...Russia and China have told the US that they will not block the independence of Kosovo...]

Okay, then let's fight fire with fire and push for the independence of Taiwan and Chechnya and see how China and Russia they like that.

LIBO
71 posted on 03/19/2006 1:14:38 AM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: bkepley

The violence towards the Serbs has been completely intolerant and restrictive to the point of being criminal. The International community there have tried but failed to protect the Serbs.

It has been very restrictive for the minorities........


72 posted on 03/19/2006 2:47:45 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Fred Nerks

Good article. Will be good for two or three reads.....


73 posted on 03/19/2006 2:52:59 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Fruitbat

Actually, they never had designs to create a Greater Serbia. They were fighting just to keep the Islamic Fundies from separating the other states.......


74 posted on 03/19/2006 2:55:56 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Proctor

We have a way to go......thanks. Tom


75 posted on 03/19/2006 2:57:10 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

Now you're talking............


76 posted on 03/19/2006 2:58:01 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill

Good article and very disturbing.

IMHO, the Serbian situation has always been a little complicated and there were definitely times when they were not the good guys; but in this conflict, the Albanians (or at any rate, the Muslims) were the aggressors, and had been stirring things up for years. They had been tightly controlled under Communism, and when that collapsed, their dreams of taking over revived immediately.

Bill Clinton, quite simply, hated Christians in particular and the West in general and took any opportunity to side with anybody who also hated them. His siding with the Albanians was essentially his way of telling the world what side he was on. I think the message was pretty clear, and the fact that his actions created a terrorist training center for attacks on the West doesn't bother him - or people such as Albright - at all.

Sadly, I don't see our current administration having either the nerve or the will to do anything to change the outcome of Bill's War.


77 posted on 03/19/2006 3:18:16 AM PST by livius
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To: tgambill

Will be good for two or three reads.....

Do you mean you will read it two or three times or that two or three people will read it?

It's sad, but anything of a historical nature just doesn't attract very much interest.


78 posted on 03/19/2006 3:29:11 AM PST by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: tgambill
Clinton involved us in the Balkans and Kosovo

... and on the wrong side.
79 posted on 03/19/2006 3:36:55 AM PST by Beckwith (The liberal media has picked sides and they've sided with the Jihadists.)
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To: ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; arete; ...
[...]
To persuade the international community that only one final status will be acceptable, our Albanian "rescuees" have been stepping up the violence. This is a message to the West that it has only one possible exit strategy: grant unconditional independence -- without border compromises with Serbia and without protection guarantees for what's left of the non-Albanian minorities.
[...]
How many Americans know that the terrorists who carried out a spate of suicide attacks in Iraq in August 2004 were trained in Bosnia, or that al Qaeda's top Balkans operative -- al-Zawahiri's brother Mohammed -- had a high position with our terrorist KLA "allies"? [...] in Bosnia we fought alongside at least two of the 9/11 hijackers
[...]
Milosevic's sudden death this week spares us from the worldwide riots that would have ensued had the tribunal mustered the courage to issue a verdict based on the evidence.
[...]

Bump

80 posted on 03/19/2006 4:32:43 AM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/ arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: tgambill
The US and UK are pushing strongly for Serbia to accept that Kosovo will become independent, while Russia, which had previously worried that the province would set a precedent for its own republic of Chechnya, has scaled down its objections.

The officials, who asked not to be named, said the Bush administration had persuaded Moscow and Beijing that independence for the Serbian province was "unique" and would not set a precedent for Chechnya

?

81 posted on 03/19/2006 4:40:19 AM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/ arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: t2buckeye
I believe Clinton involved us and backed Kosovo thinking that he could appease the Islamic terrorists....it has of course done no such thing and has instead emboldened them. Another mess left over from the Clinton years.

When Clinton was wavering the Republicans including Bob Dole, National Review and others were accusing him of Chamberlain like appeasement.

82 posted on 03/19/2006 4:43:06 AM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/ arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: Peter Libra
Bob Dole a very civilized and decent man.

He was one of the main sponsors of the war against Serbia. He must be as civilized and as decent as Kosovo Albanians.

83 posted on 03/19/2006 4:47:27 AM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/ arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: tgambill

--The violence towards the Serbs has been completely intolerant and restrictive to the point of being criminal. The International community there have tried but failed to protect the Serbs.

Is the violence a result of an official government policy such as in say Saudi Arabia, a continuation of the civil war, or terrorism?


84 posted on 03/19/2006 4:59:59 AM PST by bkepley
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To: tgambill
Kososvo shows you should never bet on black. Never ally yourself with the darkness that is Islam.

 

85 posted on 03/19/2006 7:02:54 AM PST by dennisw (-Muslim's biggest enemy is the founder of Islam, Muhammad. Muslims are victims of this evil conman-)
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To: Cicero
There's that one Canadian diplomat who has spoken out very boldly and sensibly several times, and that's about it.

James Bissett?

86 posted on 03/19/2006 9:08:21 AM PST by Banat (DEO • REGI • PATRIĆ)
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To: r9etb

"First, Clinton absolutely did not want to have another Rwanda-type genocide on his hands, and the truth is that the recent history of the region was "in favor" of a real genocide taking place, if not nipped in the bud"

*****You have some interesting thoughts and may reflect a concern, however, this was not a direct reason. Intelligence indicated that a genocide was not taking place as the Clinton Administration had to fabricate the large numbers of those reported murdered as well, as fabricate the reasons for going in. The Muslims provoked many of the attacks and massacres that were blamed on the Serbs. We knew there wasn't a genocide going on, otherwise why engineer a false one?




"Second, Clinton's cynical side cannot be ignored: even if there wasn't a serious genocide going on, it would be good politics for him to act as if there were."

*****True, as not only was it good politics from the adminitration's point of view, but it completed the agenda of breaking down the Balkans.



"be known a Wartime President -- recall that he was legacy-building by this time. And thus Rambouillet Accords, especially Appendix B, confronted Slobbo with an ultimatum (occupation by NATO) that no country could accept."

***** I can't comment, but I do agree with the last sentence, as that was the trick.


87 posted on 03/19/2006 9:41:11 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: bkepley

Welcome? What kind of welcome are you referring to? Christians did not invade the region. It was Muslims who did raping, pillaging, forcefully converting as they did. So your comments are dim-witted and half baked originating in ignorance.


88 posted on 03/19/2006 9:55:25 AM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: livius

You are right, as we are even working on the Russians and with China with some bartering points, so they won't block the independence issue.
What to do...?


89 posted on 03/19/2006 10:04:29 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Fred Nerks

:)) no, it will be good to read 2 or 3 times to get the full impact. The speech has a lot of history and analysis for just one read.


90 posted on 03/19/2006 10:06:10 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: A. Pole

Yes, this is true, why the "?", it's pretty clear and accurate.


91 posted on 03/19/2006 10:08:11 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Cicero

92 posted on 03/19/2006 10:16:43 AM PST by BIGLOOK (Order of Battle: Sink or capture as Prize, MS Media)
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To: tgambill
The article makes some assertions I don't necessarily agree with, but here's my take:

1. Kosovo is and should remain a part of Serbia.
2. Serbians who fled Kosovo must have the 'right to return' and reclaim their properties.

These two points must be the basis for any future Kosovo.
93 posted on 03/19/2006 10:44:24 AM PST by baltoga
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To: bkepley; Fred Nerks; ma bell; Wraith

"Is the violence a result of an official government policy such as in say Saudi Arabia, a continuation of the civil war, or terrorism?"

***** The violence is not an official government policy, but it's a continuation of the civil war, using terrorism, intimidation and with a strategy behind it. The idea was to cleanse the remaining Serbs from their homes in order to justify an independent Kosovo. The Albanians do not embrace Islam as others that are Muslims. They have a different and more "lukewarm" style of practicing Islam.
Hanefi Islam is a more tolerant style of Islam. The Albanians inherited from Ottoman Turks has lost or losing its hold to Wahabism. Most Albanians, do not embrace the Wahabism initially. Moderate or mid-class Albanians would not accept any gifts or money from the Saudi's in Kosovo. However, the poorer families took money from the Saudis with the catch....they had to practice Wahabism, in the Saudi style. The other link was a link with the Albanian Mafia and Islamic Extremist conducing criminal operations. The only stipulation, do not touch the Americans or international community at least until the independence issue is final.

The Wahabi dominance on Kosovo Albanians is illustrated in the March violence against the Serbs where churches were deliberately targeted for destruction because they cannot coexist alongside Wahabi Islam - as is the case in Saudi Arabia. What bother are Christian crosses to them? It's now because Wahabi indoctrination of Kosovo Albanians has reached such a degree that it is no longer controllable. They are focusing on the independence and helping the Albanians extremist along.

In summary, the violence was organized to run the Serbs out of Kosovo in preparation for the independence issue. It was also to gain property and control of homes etc.....The violence is directed towards moderate Albanians as well as minorities for many different reasons.


94 posted on 03/19/2006 10:52:36 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: dennisw

It is known that Richard Holbrooke is very much responsible for relationship we forged with the Islamic extremist. He basically stood behind a project that helped to create another Islamic state in Europe. It seems now that Bosnia is a haven for al Qaeda bases as is Kosovo and western Macedonia. Using Holbrooke, we encouraged al Qaeda, the Egyptian Jam al Islamia and the Pakistani Tabligh to come to the Balkans to fight the Serbs. There was much provocation and fabrications to justify our actions there. Thanks to the environment Holbrooke in large measure created, members of these terrorist groups never left and are active in Kosovo, and western Macedonian cities of Tetovo, Gostivar, Debar and many others.

I believe that these terrorist bases in the Balkans Holbrooke precipitated, in coordination with cells in USA, Switzerland, Britain and Belgium, will make new terrorist attacks on the West.


95 posted on 03/19/2006 10:58:50 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: bkepley

"Given the welcome they've received from the XSTIANS I doubt that'll happen."

***** Respectfully, this is completely incorrect, The Rape camps did not, repeat, did not exist, for just one example. The Muslims, in good form, started their conversion and Jihad as they do in EVERY country they infect. We (U.S.Administration), aided the Muslims agenda to start disabling the Balkans. It is with much conflict that I have to admit this.


96 posted on 03/19/2006 11:15:38 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: baltoga

I agree with your two points, but, this is not how it's turning out.


97 posted on 03/19/2006 11:17:33 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Aliska

"I think we made a grievous mistake in hindsight and was never comfortable with what we were doing at the time. People in-the-know seemed to think it was the right thing to do. Now I believe they were wrong."

****** I'm afraid that it wasn't a "mistake". It was planned this way. It was a mistake to plan it, yes..and a mistake to bring in the Islamic fundies, but, I think they took that risk to further the strategy of breaking up the Balkans.....The Serbs were being manipulated and responded with excess force in some cases, but not to the level that it was reported.


98 posted on 03/19/2006 11:20:50 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Cicero
Quite a few Freepers understand that clinton fought that war on the wrong side.

Add me to that list. It still amazes me how Clark can brag about his "great victory" with a straight face....especially after 911.

99 posted on 03/19/2006 11:44:27 AM PST by RckyRaCoCo ("When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk!")
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To: tgambill
I agree. The failure of NATO to protect Serbians in Kosovo has led to the exact results NATO wanted to prevent. Now for NATO to suggest independence is nothing more than a cover-up for these failures.
100 posted on 03/19/2006 12:19:08 PM PST by baltoga
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