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Spy for Israel Loses Supreme Court Appeal [Pollard]
AP ^ | 3/20/6

Posted on 03/20/2006 7:56:46 AM PST by SmithL

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1 posted on 03/20/2006 7:56:50 AM PST by SmithL
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To: SmithL

The US should have suspended Israeli aid for a year as punishment.


2 posted on 03/20/2006 7:58:24 AM PST by misterrob (Islam is a hate crime)
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To: SmithL

This is good.


3 posted on 03/20/2006 7:58:44 AM PST by brivette
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To: SmithL
Pollard is lucky that he will get to die a natural death - but he is constitutionally incapable of gratitude for anything.

He always wants more.

4 posted on 03/20/2006 7:59:39 AM PST by wideawake
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To: SmithL

Pollard did incalculable harm to the United States while in a position of trust.


5 posted on 03/20/2006 8:00:36 AM PST by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
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To: brivette

Lock him up, throw away the key.


6 posted on 03/20/2006 8:01:41 AM PST by carl in alaska (The raven watching news of the Florida recounts stirred and spoke. Quoth the raven..."NeverGore.")
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To: misterrob
"The US should have suspended Israeli aid for a year as punishment."

ONE year?
BFD

How about, "Until you apologize."?

And Pollard should have been stood up against a wall and shot.

7 posted on 03/20/2006 8:11:01 AM PST by Redbob
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To: Redbob

$3 billion in aid loss is a pretty serious punishement. And, let's not try and pretend we don't spy on our friends either. But, for $3 billion we should be treated just a tad bit better.


8 posted on 03/20/2006 8:12:34 AM PST by misterrob (Islam is a hate crime)
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To: misterrob
$3 billion in aid loss is a pretty serious punishement. And, let's not try and pretend we don't spy on our friends either. But, for $3 billion we should be treated just a tad bit better.

The big difference with the U.S. is that we spy on "our friends" on our own behalf. If even a fraction of the things I've read about the Pollard case is true, then a substantial amount of the information he obtained for Israel was passed along to the Soviet Union and therefore had no inherent value to Israel.

$3 billion doesn't come close to paying for that kind of damage.

9 posted on 03/20/2006 8:16:57 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child

Bingo.

Pollard was an information broker--Israel was trading on its relationship of trust with the US in exchange for favors from Russia (and others).

I'm sure it won't be long now before the Pollard apologists show up and start calling everyone an anti-Semite.


10 posted on 03/20/2006 8:19:18 AM PST by cicero's_son
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To: misterrob

The Israelis sold the take from Pollard to the Soviets. American agents in the Soviet Union died because of Pollard. Israeli blood is apparently worth more to the Israelis than American blood is. So much for our "allies." Can you imagine the Brits doing the same? I think not.


11 posted on 03/20/2006 8:20:41 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: SmithL

Whining-traitor-who-should-have-danced-at-the-end-of-a-rope-using-up-the-Courts-precious-time Bump.


12 posted on 03/20/2006 8:21:07 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: cicero's_son

Pollard should rot in prison....Israel SHOULD have apologized, we are NOT pure as the driven snow in the espionage arena and suggesting that we are is ridiculous...and those that see this as a "semitic" issue, are indeed "anti-semitic".


13 posted on 03/20/2006 8:24:28 AM PST by sofaman ("The Argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence." Ayn Rand)
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To: cicero's_son
Pollard was an information broker--Israel was trading on its relationship of trust with the US in exchange for favors from Russia (and others).

"Broker"? Don't "brokers" sell more than one item in their career? Pollard gave Israel information to which she was entitled under the 1983 memorandum of understanding, exactly once. The FBI's own investigation concluded that Pollard was not acting for profit.

14 posted on 03/20/2006 8:24:40 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: RKV

You have heard of Philby, McLean, Burgess, Bount and Cairncross?


15 posted on 03/20/2006 8:24:58 AM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Alberta's Child
If even a fraction of the things I've read about the Pollard case is true, then a substantial amount of the information he obtained for Israel was passed along to the Soviet Union and therefore had no inherent value to Israel.

More inportant than the actual information this traitor SOLD is that foreign intel services could see how the information was gathered, processed, and presented. He basically gave away the recipe for the cake along with the cake.

16 posted on 03/20/2006 8:25:41 AM PST by pikachu (Be alert --we need more lerts!)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
Pollard did incalculable harm to the United States while in a position of trust.

Informing Israel of terrorist attacks planned against her did the US "incalculable harm"? I'd be interested to know the exact nature of that harm.

17 posted on 03/20/2006 8:25:59 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: SmithL

Just offer Israel this deal:

Pollard for $1 billion in aid.

See if they are any takers.


18 posted on 03/20/2006 8:26:17 AM PST by rcocean (Copyright is theft and loved by Hollywood socialists)
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To: PzLdr

They were traitors, and didn't attempt to excuse their treason by saying they were really loyal to Britain did they?


19 posted on 03/20/2006 8:29:01 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Shalom Israel

The exact nature of the harm is irrelevant (even though American agents in the Soviet Union died because of Pollard's actions). When you get a security clearance you swear not to disclose the secured information to unauthorized persons. The Israeli agents he gave the info to were not authorized and he was not in a position to freelance the decision.


20 posted on 03/20/2006 8:30:53 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Shalom Israel

Further it is common for "false-flag" operations to be used to convince an agent that they are working for one country and are actually working for another.


21 posted on 03/20/2006 8:32:14 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Redbob
And Pollard should have been stood up against a wall and shot.

While I agree with your sentiment here, the problem is that that is not in accordance with our present laws. The laws apparently say that the guy should have been freed by now.

ML/NJ

22 posted on 03/20/2006 8:37:12 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: Shalom Israel
Pollard gave Israel information to which she was entitled under the 1983 memorandum of understanding, exactly once.

How could you possibly know that, when the basic issue under consideration in this case before the U.S. Supreme Court was that the U.S. government did not want to publicly to reveal all of the information Pollard provided to Israel?

23 posted on 03/20/2006 8:49:12 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: sofaman
Pollard should rot in prison....Israel SHOULD have apologized, we are NOT pure as the driven snow in the espionage arena and suggesting that we are is ridiculous...and those that see this as a "semitic" issue, are indeed "anti-semitic".

Well said.

24 posted on 03/20/2006 8:49:25 AM PST by SmithL (Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.)
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To: RKV
The exact nature of the harm is irrelevant

I didn't raise the question: the poster to whom I replied did, when he asserted that "incalculable harm" was done.

When you get a security clearance you swear not to disclose the secured information to unauthorized persons. The Israeli agents he gave the info to were not authorized and he was not in a position to freelance the decision.

Granted. Others have been convicted of passing information to allies before. None of them got life sentences; in fact half of them were sentenced to less than 4 years.

25 posted on 03/20/2006 8:50:30 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: RKV
Further it is common for "false-flag" operations to be used to convince an agent that they are working for one country and are actually working for another.

Israel has already made it clear he was working for them.

26 posted on 03/20/2006 8:51:19 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Shalom Israel
Your post is meaningless for two basic reasons:

1. What kind of information did those "others" provide to our allies?

2. Israel is not an "ally" of the United States in any formal (i.e., legal) sense of the word.

27 posted on 03/20/2006 8:53:52 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
How could you possibly know that...

You raise a good question: how could you possibly know what Pollard gave Israel?

It is a matter of record, however, that the method of counting "compromised" documents included at least: the entirety of any document of which Pollard got so much as one sentence; the entirety of any document referenced in any way by anything Pollard got. So, for example, a single page might be counted as "compromising" several 500-page volumes. In this way, eleven bundles, each able to fit in a briefcase, were deemed to have "compromised" several moving-vans full of material.

As for the claims that Pollard compromised agents in Russia, the accusation came from none other than Aldritch Ames and Robert Hanssen--who were spying for Russia, and were the ones actually guilty of this crime. Pollard did not have the "blue stripe" clearance necessary to access names of agents.

To give Cap Weinberger his due, it appears that he believed Pollard was responsible for the crimes of Ames and Hanssen, who had not yet been caught.

28 posted on 03/20/2006 9:01:49 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: ml/nj
Apparently the SCourt says you are wrong.

The laws apparently say that the guy should have been freed by now.

29 posted on 03/20/2006 9:08:14 AM PST by DManA
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To: Shalom Israel
To give Cap Weinberger his due, it appears that he believed Pollard was responsible for the crimes of Ames and Hanssen, who had not yet been caught.

Although he may have believed it at the time, now, after those others were caught, he doesn't consider Pollard all that important.

Asked in an interview why he omitted the incident, Weinberger casually replied, “Because it was, in a sense, a very minor matter but made very important.” Asked to elaborate, Weinberger repeated, “As I say, the Pollard matter was comparatively minor. It was made far bigger than its actual importance.”

30 posted on 03/20/2006 9:09:34 AM PST by Sabramerican
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To: Shalom Israel
You raise a good question: how could you possibly know what Pollard gave Israel?

I don't have to know -- I'm just refuting your point. YOU are the one who thinks Pollard's crimes weren't serious enough to warrant his punishment in the U.S. Federal justice system, and I simply pointed out that you can't possibly know that.

The fact that Israel's extensive lobbtying efforts in the late 1990s couldn't even get a pardon for Pollard from Bill Clinton -- about as cheap a whore and as unprincipled and mentally dysfunctional a politician as anything the U.S. has ever seen -- is a good indication that the damage Pollard did to this country is far more serious than anyone seems to realize.

31 posted on 03/20/2006 9:09:34 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: SmithL
You do the crime, you do the time.

Pollard felt above the law; now he has to reap the consequences. Since the road to hell is paved with good intentions, his good intentions are not good enough.

32 posted on 03/20/2006 9:09:43 AM PST by george wythe
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To: Alberta's Child
What kind of information did those "others" provide to our allies?

Here are some examples:

Name Spied for Served In
S. Baba South Africa 5 months 1982
S. Scranage Guyana 8 months 1986-87
S. Morrison Great Britain 3 months 1985-86
T. Dole South Africa 5 years 1989-94
A. Helmy Egypt 2 years 1992-94
M. Schwartz Saudi Arabia no time;
discharged from the
Navy without pension
1996

Israel is not an "ally" of the United States in any formal (i.e., legal) sense of the word.

They aren't members of Nato, true. However, they're friendlies. In order to be guilty of the actual crime of "treason", you must be spying for an enemy nation in a time of war. Israel not only isn't an enemy nation, it isn't even a hostile nation.

33 posted on 03/20/2006 9:17:56 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Alberta's Child
YOU are the one who thinks Pollard's crimes weren't serious enough to warrant his punishment in the U.S. Federal justice system

Straw man. I didn't say he didn't deserve punishment. The question is whether he deserved life in prison.

34 posted on 03/20/2006 9:18:46 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Alberta's Child
The fact that Israel's extensive lobbtying efforts in the late 1990s couldn't even get a pardon for Pollard from Bill Clinton -- about as cheap a whore and as unprincipled and mentally dysfunctional a politician as anything the U.S. has ever seen...

Good analogy. Like any whore, Clinton would rather be paid and then not "love you long time." He pressured Israel into highly damaging concessions, promising Pollard's release as an inducement--but unfortunately for the Israelis, they gave in without forcing him to perform first.

Clinton is certainly no friend of Israel.

35 posted on 03/20/2006 9:24:56 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: george wythe

Another reason why it is criminal to steal US intel, no matter the reasons, is that once it's out of US hands, we cannot control who sees it.

Now Pollard whined that he----and his ex-wife Anne who was in on the conspiracy----were altruists, motivated to spy by the purest intentions.

Yet, Pollard pocketed money, and the wife received expensive jewelry, as payments for stealing US intel that was sold to America's enemies.

So much for altruism.


36 posted on 03/20/2006 9:33:38 AM PST by Liz (Liberty consists in having the power to do that which is permitted by the law. Cicero)
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To: Shalom Israel
I didn't ask who these people were -- I asked what kind of classified information they provided to other countries.

They aren't members of Nato, true. However, they're friendlies. . . . Israel not only isn't an enemy nation, it isn't even a hostile nation.

As far as the U.S. is concerned, Israel has the same legal status as Egypt -- i.e., the U.S. grants them formal recognition as a nation and has agreed to provide direct active military support in very limited circumstances (kudos to anyone who knows exactly what these circumstances are). Neither country is an ally in the formal sense of the word, which means the U.S. has not signed a mutual defense treaty with them in which both countries formally agree to provide military support to the other in the event of aggression by outsiders. The U.S. has signed formal treaties of this sort (NATO, SEATO, etc.) with a number of countries around the world that make these countries allies of ours. No such treaty exists between the U.S. and Israel, so Pollard's supporters have no legal basis for their claim that "spying for an ally" is a less serious offense than spying for anyone else.

In order to be guilty of the actual crime of "treason", you must be spying for an enemy nation in a time of war.

Right. This is why Pollard was never charged with treason.

37 posted on 03/20/2006 9:42:39 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: SmithL

Burn in hell Pollard. Traitor.


38 posted on 03/20/2006 9:47:56 AM PST by steel_resolve (An intolerant culture will seek to impose it's will on the tolerant one.)
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To: RKV
Israeli blood is apparently worth more to the Israelis than American blood is

Israeli blood is more precious than American blood to a lot of FReepers as well.

39 posted on 03/20/2006 9:52:44 AM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: SmithL
Pollard... be happy... you should be spending your days making little rocks from big rocks, or better... 6' under.

Just think... Klintoon was getting the hard press to commute this POS's sentence... probably would have happened if his lie-brary got more donation coinage.

40 posted on 03/20/2006 9:57:48 AM PST by Trajan88 (www.bullittclub.com)
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To: Alberta's Child
I didn't ask who these people were -- I asked what kind of classified information they provided to other countries.

Obviously you're asking a non-trivial question... but there's one thing we do know for sure: Pollard did not take the information that Weinberger thought he had. Sabramerican also posted a relevant Weinberger quote.

41 posted on 03/20/2006 10:03:46 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Acts 2:38
Israeli blood is more precious than American blood to a lot of FReepers as well.

What American blood?

42 posted on 03/20/2006 10:04:21 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Alberta's Child
The fact that Israel's extensive lobbying efforts in the late 1990s couldn't even get a pardon for Pollard from Bill Clinton -- about as cheap a whore and as unprincipled and mentally dysfunctional a politician as anything the U.S. has ever seen...

Clinton handed out pardons to tax-cheats Mark Rich and his pal Pincus Green, after receivng pressure from then-Israeli-PM Ehud Barak----after efforts by ADL Abe----and after getting a letter expressing support for Rich from many Israeli officials, and from others around the world.

Then when the firestorm broke, when he got lacerated for the Rich pardon, Clinton whined that "Israel made me do it."

43 posted on 03/20/2006 10:06:45 AM PST by Liz (Liberty consists in having the power to do that which is permitted by the law. Cicero)
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To: Shalom Israel
The blood they want us to spill in an invasion of Iran.

Welfare to Israel (as well as EVERY other country) should end as well.

44 posted on 03/20/2006 10:13:19 AM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: Shalom Israel

My point is a simple one. You might think you are "just helping our allies" when in fact you are not. Spook101 stuff - but you apparently didn't get my point.


45 posted on 03/20/2006 10:21:20 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Shalom Israel
Pollard did not take the information that Weinberger thought he had.

I have a hard time believing that the U.S. Secretary of Defense submitted a secret legal brief to the Federal court in the Pollard case based on what he "thought" Pollard had given to Israel.

And if Weinberger eventually concluded that this was all a mistake, then why was he never called as a witness for Pollard in any of these subsequent appeals?

46 posted on 03/20/2006 10:28:07 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: SmithL

Here's a nice review on Pollard, suprisingly good considering it
was put out by PBS's "American Experience":
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/dece_pollard.html

My guess is that aside from the sheer volume of material he compromised,
Pollard is locked up for life...to keep him from blabbing on evening
TV about how he easily duped his bosses for so long.


47 posted on 03/20/2006 10:38:22 AM PST by VOA
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To: Acts 2:38; Admin Moderator
The blood they want us to spill in an invasion of Iran.

Ah, I see. You mean that the Joos are the ones behind the WoT. All righty then. Have a nice day. Buh-bye.

48 posted on 03/20/2006 11:05:53 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: RKV
You might think you are "just helping our allies" when in fact you are not. Spook101 stuff - but you apparently didn't get my point.

I did; you're merely wrong. The reason the intelligence community came down on Pollard like a ton of bricks was their fury over Aldritch Ames getting Americans killed--except they didn't know it was Ames.

49 posted on 03/20/2006 11:07:08 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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To: Alberta's Child
I have a hard time believing that the U.S. Secretary of Defense submitted a secret legal brief to the Federal court in the Pollard case based on what he "thought" Pollard had given to Israel.

Believe what you want; the fact is that Weinburger knew someone has betrayed important intelligence to Russia, getting agents killed--but he didn't know that that was Aldritch Ames and Robert Hanssen. He thought it was Pollard.

50 posted on 03/20/2006 11:08:42 AM PST by Shalom Israel (There's a reason cows ain't extinct.)
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