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Spy for Israel Loses Supreme Court Appeal [Pollard]
AP ^ | 3/20/6

Posted on 03/20/2006 7:56:46 AM PST by SmithL

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To: Shalom Israel

Well, I'm not an Israeli.

That's why they are they.


51 posted on 03/20/2006 11:09:11 AM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: Acts 2:38; Admin Moderator
Well, I'm not an Israeli. That's why they are they.

The interesting thing isn't your choice of pronoun; it's that you clearly believe that the Israelis are manipulating the US to serve her interests by conducting the "war on terror". You lost me as soon as you decided to blame the Joos.

Once again, buh bye.

52 posted on 03/20/2006 11:12:03 AM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel

Uh, I think you're paranoid. When did I say anyone was manipulating anyone else?

I didn't "blame" anybody.

Settle down.


53 posted on 03/20/2006 11:14:05 AM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: Acts 2:38; Admin Moderator
You made it clear that the Joos are behind the current talk of invading Iran. Peddle your antisemitic bravo sierra elsewhere.
54 posted on 03/20/2006 11:17:15 AM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: DManA
Apparently the SCourt says you are wrong.

Do you think the Supreme Court always gets the law right, I'm wondering.

I'm also wondering if you can read. I said I agreed that Pollard (and spies generally) should be executed, but that that is not the law. Do you think the Supreme Court disagreed with my position here? My understanding is that Pollard entered into a plea agreement with the government in exchange for a ten year sentence, and this was about 20 years ago. Do you have other information?

ML/NJ

55 posted on 03/20/2006 11:21:19 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: sofaman

[i]Pollard should rot in prison....Israel SHOULD have apologized, we are NOT pure as the driven snow in the espionage arena and suggesting that we are is ridiculous...and those that see this as a "semitic" issue, are indeed "anti-semitic".[/i]

I do believe that Israel should have apologized, or somehow made some explanation but, as you say, the U.S. is not lily white in this arena either.

Israel is our ally. Why would the U.S. not share the information with the Israelis in the first place? I think that if Pollard seems unrepentant it's because he doesn't think he really did anything wrong.


56 posted on 03/20/2006 11:24:50 AM PST by DaisyBlueEye
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To: Liz

[i]Now Pollard whined that he----and his ex-wife Anne who was in on the conspiracy----were altruists, motivated to spy by the purest intentions.

Yet, Pollard pocketed money, and the wife received expensive jewelry...[/i]

Come on! Even altruists need to eat. Just because someone was paid doesn't necessarily mean they weren't acting from good motives, and there would be darned few altruists around if you had to be poor to be one.


57 posted on 03/20/2006 11:35:34 AM PST by DaisyBlueEye
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To: SmithL

Why isn't this traitor fried so the taxpayer doesn't have to keep feeding him?


58 posted on 03/20/2006 11:39:18 AM PST by reelfoot
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To: Acts 2:38
Uh, I think you're paranoid. When did I say anyone was manipulating anyone else?

The pollard spying incident tends to bring out the Israeli firsters.....ignore them....just like the mods do.

59 posted on 03/20/2006 11:40:37 AM PST by Decepticon (The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day (NRA)
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To: Shalom Israel
Pollard gave Israel information to which she was entitled under the 1983 memorandum of understanding,

Er... who makes that decision, under the MOU -- hint: it's wasn't Jonathan Pollard, exactly once.

You're lying. Try this, from Time: "one document Pollard is believed to have slipped to the Israelis -- thought to have landed in Soviet hands, albeit unintentionally -- was a huge National Security Agency compendium of frequencies used by foreign military and intelligence services. Gathering this information cost the U.S. billions of dollars, but Pollard rendered it useless."

How about this, from a pro-Pollard Jewish writer: "His guilt is not in doubt.... He checked 7 brief-cases of documents out of a a Pentagon library, brought them to a safe house to be photographed by his Israeli case officers and then returned them."

From further down in the above-cited Epstein document: "one target of Pollard espionage was the data that the US had obtained about Saddam Hussein's biological warfare capability."

Via Epstein, the prosecutor, DiGenova, speaks: "It is absolutely indefensible from either a legal or humanitarian standpoint to grant clemency to him".

A series of reports by Stephen Green in the Christian Science Monitor are not available without paying the CSM archive. Here's a sample of one.

SOON after Pollard's arrest in November 1985, his Defense Investigative Service and FBI interrogators became convinced that much if not most of the "take" in fact had nothing to do with Israel's essential national security interests. This worried the US government even more than the incredible amount of documents involved, approximately 850,O0O pages - or even the classification level, well over half of it was TOP SECRET or higher. The problem was essentially this, The Defense Investigative Service and the FBI knew from lists hidden in Pollard's desk that he had been very specifically tasked. That is, his Israeli handlers had developed intelligence requirements for particular documents, by name and number. Initially, this indicated the possibility of another agent - the infamous "Mr. X" - who was pointing the operation toward the documents Pollard was to steal. In a polygraph interrogation, however, Pollard confirmed what US defense officials already suspected: One of the first documents he'd been asked to take was a huge compendium of current classified military documents which is updated every three months. This lists and describes tens of thousands of documents - a virtual road map for Pollard's handlers. No need for Mr. X.

So what Pollard took was exactly what the Israelis wanted. But what did they want? The initial shock came when the FBI analyzed the 25 documents found in a suitcase Anne Pollard had removed from their apartment on her husband's instructions, after he was first questioned at the Pentagon. Many of them were classified TOP SECRET, and virtually all dealt with US weapons and military capabilities. The question "Is there a Mr. X?" had pretty well been answered. Now there was a new question: "Why do the Israelis want this stuff"

Senior defense officials and FBI counterespionage agents who have reviewed the Pollard debriefing transcripts confirm this is still a major focus of the investigation. The transcripts, together with computer records at the Defense Intelligence Agency (and within the agency, at the Defense Intelligence College), where Pollard gained access to many of the stolen documents, have subsequently revealed that much of the operation's take had nothing to do with the Middle East at all - it contained details of US and Soviet intelligence, communications and military capabilities. This included, according to the government's Memorandum in Aid of Sentencing, "details about US ship positions, aircraft stations, tactics, and training operations." Much of this material could have been of interest to only one country - the Soviet Union.

This concern was heightened when, during the Pollard investigation, a Soviet defector in US hands revealed that in addition to the two Soviet spies serving prison terms in Israel (Shabtai Kalmanovitch and Marcus Klingberg), there was a third who had not been caught. He was well placed in the Defense Ministry, and still "active." Quite possibly, secrets Pollard sent to Israel were passed on to Moscow, whether or not that had been intended.

The FBI's own investigation concluded that Pollard was not acting for profit

That's a complete fabrication on your part, and you won't get away with it here. Pollard had shopped his access to two other foreign powers that he thought would pay him more, before trying the Israelis. Both turned him down, fearing a walk-in like Pollard would be a trap. This "great Jewish patriot" was actually a traitor to his own nation, and Israel was only his third choice!

His only motivation (Of course, since then, he and Anne have been made wealthy by the support of the Israeli government -- no doubt, to encourage other traitors still working against the USA).

In the sentencing memorandum at Pollard's trial, AUSA Leeper "said that Pollard was known to have received fifty thousand dollars in cash from his Israeli handlers and to have been told that thirty thousand more would be deposited annually in a foreign bank account. Pollard had made a commitment to spy for at least ten years, the memorandum alleged, and "stood to receive an additional five hundred and forty thousand dollars ($540,000) over the expected life of the conspiracy." source.

One more source, again from a generally pro-Israeli Jewish author, who concludes: "Pollard is no Jewish patriot. He is a traitor who sold out his country, and fellow intelligence officers, for money, then claimed he was being persecuted by anti-Semites.

Victim he is not. To the contrary, Pollard is a poster boy for anti-Semitism. His treason unfairly exposes all American Jews to hate, and accusations of doubtful loyalty.

Jonathan Pollard is a traitor of the worst kind - not a second Dreyfus - and should stay in prison."

I really can't add to that. A lot of well-meaning people have been misled by the lies and spin emanating from the Pollard camp. Once in crowbar motel, Pollard reinvented himself as this great Jew, ditched the goyische wife that he sucked into his spy world (she was serving her own sentence at the time), and married an Orthodox woman, Esther, who's now his conduit to his paymasters in Jerusalem. But when he went to prison, Pollard didn't stand for anything but Jonathan Pollard.

His case officers are gonna have to wait to see him in hell for that final debriefing that they want so badly. Cause he's going to die in prison.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

60 posted on 03/20/2006 11:47:44 AM PST by Criminal Number 18F (The difference between Benedict Arnold and Jonathan Pollard? Arnold was loyal, once.)
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To: sofaman
we are NOT pure as the driven snow in the espionage arena and suggesting that we are is ridiculous...

And suggesting that people are suggesting something that no one is suggesting is a straw-man argument.

61 posted on 03/20/2006 11:51:05 AM PST by rogue yam
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To: ml/nj
I'm wondering if you know how to have a conversation without being a piss ant.

I'm also wondering if you can read.

62 posted on 03/20/2006 11:56:42 AM PST by DManA
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To: ml/nj
The laws apparently say that the guy should have been freed by now.

The law says what the sentence was. The judge legally and properly sentenced Pollard to life in prison. Pollard's waterboys make a big deal out of the plea agreement, but Pollard violated the plea agreement, and -- this is important -- a plea agreement binds the defence and the prosecutor, but it does not and can not bind the judge.

Basically, the Israelis want their spy back, so they can show to potential spies, and maybe current spies whose ardour for treason is flagging, "see, we back a guy up." So they're quite willing to say and do anything to get him out (except, like, return the documents he stole, or cooperate in damage assessment, both of which Israel has flatly refused to do).

It's hard to feel bad about the Israelis being out all their money, and having a no-account agent languishing in jail. They've made the money back by selling excerpts from the information to various US enemies.

Someone asked about why not cut aid to Israel for a year? Simple. Israel couldn't survive, and the only nation in the world that would take the refugees would be us. It would be like getting a million Marielitos, all of whom would complain incessantly about how much better Israel was, burden public services, and vote straight Democratic. But the good news is that there would no longer be a foreign country trying to winkle Jonathan P out of durance vile.

63 posted on 03/20/2006 11:58:09 AM PST by Criminal Number 18F (The difference between Benedict Arnold and Jonathan Pollard? Arnold was loyal, once.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
You're lying.

Watch your mouth. He was indicted on exactly one count. I translated that into "only once" without properly accounting for the fact that he made eleven drops to the Israelis.

"one document Pollard is believed to have slipped to the Israelis -- thought to have landed in Soviet hands, albeit unintentionally -- was a huge National Security Agency compendium of frequencies used by foreign military and intelligence services. Gathering this information cost the U.S. billions of dollars, but Pollard rendered it useless."

That's one of Aldritch Ames's crimes, chalked up to Pollard by Time. But of course Time Magazine has never been known to get facts wrong, so that can't be.

From further down in the above-cited Epstein document: "one target of Pollard espionage was the data that the US had obtained about Saddam Hussein's biological warfare capability."

Duh. That was of vital interest to the Israelis, and should have been shared with them.

Via Epstein, the prosecutor, DiGenova, speaks: "It is absolutely indefensible from either a legal or humanitarian standpoint to grant clemency to him".

Straw man. Nobody's talking about clemency here. He already served 20 years. If they sent him home today with a free t-shirt, it could hardly be called "clemency".

This worried the US government even more than the incredible amount of documents involved, approximately 850,O0O pages...

This is BS of the sort that has already been thoroughly debunked. Eleven briefcase loads could hardly amount to more than 1,000 pages--let alone the better part of one million pages. I already identified the bogus means by which that astronomic figure was derived. To suggest that he actually took 850,000 pages of documents is absurd.

Pollard had shopped his access to two other foreign powers that he thought would pay him more, before trying the Israelis.

Proof? (Hint: you're lying.)

64 posted on 03/20/2006 11:59:49 AM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: rogue yam
straw man? Hardly...let us not be so indignant that an ally would spy on us. There is no doubt that we have, and that we do.

That is hardly a strawman argument because the argument cannot be refuted. We HAVE spied in allies in the past.

The fact that Pollard should rot in prison, should not give way to "holier than thou" sentiment swhen it comes to spying on "friends".

65 posted on 03/20/2006 12:06:07 PM PST by sofaman ("The Argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence." Ayn Rand)
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To: Shalom Israel
The question is whether he deserved life in prison.

A better question is why the other spies you list didn't get life terms. Most on your list are obscure to the point that I couldn't find much information about their cases except at jonathanpollard.org. I did find this information about Marie Scranage where we learn that she cooperated with authorities to arrest another spy, her boyfriend Michael Soussoudis.

Were there any mitigating factors like that for Pollard? Isn't it the case that, rather than cooperating, he tried to flee arrest? What is the comparative damage done by Pollard's spying vs. Scranage and the others?

66 posted on 03/20/2006 12:11:42 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Were there any mitigating factors like that for Pollard? Isn't it the case that, rather than cooperating, he tried to flee arrest? What is the comparative damage done by Pollard's spying vs. Scranage and the others?

It's not clear that Pollard did much of any damage. Most of what was attributed to him at the time was actually the work of Aldritch Ames. 90% of what he was accused ot taking, he had no access to. What he did take, generally, were shipping records (which were his department) that appeared to be terrorist arms traffic.

John Loftus claims that this was part of Pollard's undoing: on information from Pollard, the Israelis tipped the Greeks to intercept what they believed to be an arms shipment to the PLO. Loftus claims that this was in fact a shipment of arms to Iran--the first shipment in the "Iran-Contra" affair. This of course suggests a reason that Bush Sr., at least, would want Pollard put away. Ironically, though, if this is true then it's Bush who should have been put away.

67 posted on 03/20/2006 12:17:49 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: sofaman

By my estimation, either

(1) you don't know the meaning of the term "straw-man argument", or

(2) you lack the ability to rationally apply that term to the posts on this thread, or

(3) you are deliberately obfuscating.

I'd ask you which but that I have no reason to expect a meaningful answer.


68 posted on 03/20/2006 12:22:59 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: Shalom Israel
Duh. That was of vital interest to the Israelis, and should have been shared with them.

When I was in Israel, we often stood for hours outside the base gate because the Israelis had some operation going on they didn't want their American allies to see....LOL! We were considered "spies".

Tell me again about "should have been shared"....you know nothing about which you ramble about...

69 posted on 03/20/2006 12:24:31 PM PST by Decepticon (The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day (NRA)
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To: Shalom Israel
Believe what you want; the fact is that Weinburger knew someone has betrayed important intelligence to Russia, getting agents killed--but he didn't know that that was Aldritch Ames and Robert Hanssen. He thought it was Pollard.

I'm rather interested, here. Has it been proved gentlemen Ames and Hanssen did the deed? If so, why is Oollard still in jail? If no, what are you doing accusing them of it without knowledge or cause?

70 posted on 03/20/2006 12:34:28 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: SmithL

Awesome news!!! He should rot in his cell.


71 posted on 03/20/2006 12:34:31 PM PST by NYC Republican
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To: Shalom Israel
Well maybe and maybe not - I doubt we'll ever know until we get a peek at that classified info. In any case I'm satisfied that Pollard stay in jail for life unless we can trade him for something worthwhile.

Why is it that you and others make such a big deal out of it? Spies against the US deserve every bad thing they get.

72 posted on 03/20/2006 12:37:29 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Shalom Israel
Israel has already made it clear he was working for them.

Could Israel be lying? I mean, the Israelies do lie, don't they?

73 posted on 03/20/2006 12:38:38 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Decepticon
Tell me again about "should have been shared"....you know nothing about which you ramble about...

You're right--the Israelis had no good reason to know about Iraq's arsenal of chemical or biological weapons. How silly of me. /sarc

I'm afraid you're talking to hear yourself talk. What a moron.

74 posted on 03/20/2006 12:40:06 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: William Terrell
Has it been proved gentlemen Ames and Hanssen did the deed?

Yes.

If so, why is Oollard still in jail?

You're asking what the motive is for leaving him to rot instead of reversing the error? I'm not the one perpetrating the injustice so one can only speculate as to the motive.

There have been more than one suggestion made. The likeliest appear to be: that releasing Pollard would result in major public discussion of Ames's and Hanssen's espionage, which the intelligence community doesn't want; releasing Pollard would involve admitting a huge mistake, whereas letting him rot wouldn't; and (if true) Pollard's intelligence unwittingly betrayed Iran Contra, stepping on toes very high in the food chain.

75 posted on 03/20/2006 12:43:16 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: edsheppa
Why is it that you and others make such a big deal out of it?

You're right. Injustice is, in the great big scheme of things, a big yawner. Eventually the oppressor and oppressed lie down in the dust together, and their power, and their sufferings, are all forgotten. That being the case, who really gives a crap if Pollard rots or not? Even if the real criminals are the ones who withheld vital information from Israel.

76 posted on 03/20/2006 12:44:59 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
The entertainment on this thread is exquisite.

Other poster: YOU are the one who thinks Pollard's crimes weren't serious enough to warrant his punishment in the U.S. Federal justice system

You: Straw man. I didn't say he didn't deserve punishment. The question is whether he deserved life in prison.

Eh, "serious enough to warrant his punishment in the U.S. Federal justice system" is the same as "The question is whether he deserved life in prison", isn't it?

77 posted on 03/20/2006 12:45:22 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
Could Israel be lying? I mean, the Israelies do lie, don't they?

Conjectures of that sort are best handled by fitting them into a much larger context. Why would they strain relations with the US in pleading to get a Russian spy released, exactly? By the time you're done fleshing out a bona fide theory, you'll realize that it's collapsing of its own weight.

78 posted on 03/20/2006 12:46:31 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Alberta's Child
Israel is not an "ally" of the United States in any formal (i.e., legal) sense of the word.

BTW, you must really think Bush is an idiot: there he goes again, calling Israel an ally and making you sound like a liar.

79 posted on 03/20/2006 12:49:06 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
Ah, I see. You mean that the Joos are the ones behind the WoT. All righty then. Have a nice day. Buh-bye.

My friend, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder the size of a Sequoia. The effect of this chip-generating emotion is taking a toll on your reason, I think.

80 posted on 03/20/2006 12:52:44 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Shalom Israel
You want the poster banned because he thinks Israel is pushing for the US to enter Iran? What if Israel is pushing for the US to enter Iran? It certainly would be in their interest, doncha think? You're evidently a partisan for Israel's interest, so wouldn't you, if you were in that position, recommend the same?

81 posted on 03/20/2006 12:59:35 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
My friend, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder the size of a Sequoia.

On the contrary, there has been practically no anti-semitism on this thread; it's been refreshing. But that idiot is clearly an exception. His assertion concerning Israel being behind America's current interest in Iran is unmistakable; you can accept my assessment or not, but eventually you will find the conclusion inescapable that that particular poster is indeed an anti-semite.

82 posted on 03/20/2006 12:59:58 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: William Terrell
You want the poster banned...

I merely express my disgust with his anti-semitism. I'm not the zotter; let the zots fall where they may. Eventually he'll go too far, and bring it upon himself.

It certainly would be in their interest, doncha think?

It would be in their interest for a great big asteroid to smack down in Teheran. What's your point?

83 posted on 03/20/2006 1:02:26 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
As far as I'm concerned, Pollard has received justice. If others have not then that is a shame. But, withholding "vital information from Israel" is not a crime so far as I know. The decision of what information to share with whom is delegated to our political authorities. If they abuse that discretion in the view of the public then they will pay a political price.

Hey, anyway, what's Israel to you? Aren't you an anarchist? Weren't you arguing that people are better off without government? Don't you think the Israelis would be better off?

84 posted on 03/20/2006 1:13:59 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Shalom Israel
Yes.

Did they confess to it or were nailed by preponderance of evidence? Were they, or either one, convicted of that particular charge, the one attributed to Pollard?

Hello. In America, if a person is convicted of a charge a later person is discovered to be guilty of, and convicted, that charge is withdrawn as a matter of course from the original suspect or upon suit.

This is because, in such a case when this does not happen, any American can bring suit, having standing to sue over a travesty of justice.

Why have no Sabramericans or Shalom Israels seen to it?

85 posted on 03/20/2006 1:15:10 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
Why have no Sabramericans or Shalom Israels seen to it?

Don't ask questions like that! Don't you realize that asking questions like that is anti-Semitic!

86 posted on 03/20/2006 1:20:11 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: Shalom Israel
Why would they strain relations with the US in pleading to get a Russian spy released, exactly?

Why would they strain relations with the US by spying on us? And, Pollard may still have information they need, even if he is a "Russian" spy.

Who knows, but are you saying that Israel doesn't lie?

87 posted on 03/20/2006 1:20:21 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: edsheppa
But, withholding "vital information from Israel" is not a crime so far as I know.

It's a moral crime. Further, it opens America up to the potential for divine wrath, though I wouldn't presume to know what form that might take.

Hey, anyway, what's Israel to you? Aren't you an anarchist? Weren't you arguing that people are better off without government? Don't you think the Israelis would be better off?

Ah, yes, we've spoken before. Are you the one who posed precisely this question earlier, in an attempt to maneuver me into either denigrating Israel or contradicting myself? See, if I remembered names better, I'd recognize you, and I'd remember whether I'd resolved to stop responding to your posts. Oh well. My gift and curse is that I never forget an argument, and never remember a name (or face).

Anyway, I'm against all human government, and recent injustices perpetrated against Israelis by their own government vindicate this viewpoint. However, I am all for divine rule, as long as the divinity in question takes charge personally. The present state of Israel is at the heart of God's plan, and will become the seat of Messiah's world government.

88 posted on 03/20/2006 1:20:48 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: William Terrell
Hello. In America, if a person is convicted of a charge a later person is discovered to be guilty of, and convicted, that charge is withdrawn as a matter of course from the original suspect or upon suit.

Welcome to reality. Is it nice where you've been? There are any number of cases where an individual is never freed, even after ironclad exculpatory evidence. That is of course even easier to perpetrate when the documents on which the conviction was based are "classified".

89 posted on 03/20/2006 1:22:42 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
His assertion concerning Israel being behind America's current interest in Iran is unmistakable;

Why shouldn't they? If I were Israel, I would. Why is this "anti-semetic"?

90 posted on 03/20/2006 1:23:18 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Shalom Israel
Oh, please.

Did you consider the president an expert in matters of theology and philosophy when he called Islam a "religion of peace?"

As I've explained very throughly earlier in this thread, Israel is NOT an ally of the U.S. in any legal sense. We may have common interests in a lot of areas, but the fact that AIPAC is one of the strongest lobbying groups in Washington does not make Israel an "ally."

91 posted on 03/20/2006 1:23:54 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Shalom Israel
What's your point?

That America taking out Iran is in the Israelies' interest. It is, isn't it? Why is that "anti-semetic".

92 posted on 03/20/2006 1:25:15 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
Why shouldn't they? If I were Israel, I would. Why is this "anti-semetic"?

I haven't locked onto your wavelength yet. So I can't tell what's behind your obtuseness. Perhaps you really are obtuse. Or maybe you're playing dumb for fun (a mild form of trolling, and not uncommon). Or perhaps your obtuseness is calculated, and there's somewhere you intend the discussion to end up. I can't tell which, and if it's option #3, I can't tell where you're going.

Anyway, your obtuse question aside, the answer is simple. People don't accidentally employ the precise jargon of some group, in precisely the correct fashion.

In this case, he is perfectly articulating the meme that Israel not only looks favorably upon American action against a common enemy, but is in fact manipulating the United States to bring about that end, by means of a covert command and control structure capable of bending the United States to the will of Israel.

Mr. "Acts" believes all of these things, though the details of that belief may vary. For example, I don't know whether he believes in a "Jewish-controlled media" that manipulates the American people indirectly, or whether he believes in some sort of direct control mechanism as per the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. Similarly, I don't know whether he believes that "the Joos" have absolute control, in the form of the "Zionist Occupation Government," or whether he merely believes that they have partial influence. But to one degree or another, I know that he believes something of that sort, and I know it because I've dealt with such people before, and have no trouble recognizing them.

Others will find out eventually, the slow way. It'll take something getting him really mad, probably, before he actually lashes out with anti-semitic invective. If the US invades Iraq, or if alternately Israel does, that would be a good time to watch him and see.

93 posted on 03/20/2006 1:34:27 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel
Shalom Israel writes -

Even if the real criminals are the ones who withheld vital information from Israel.

Israeli Hero - Moses Hess - Communist Manifesto

Author of Rome vs. Jerusalem

94 posted on 03/20/2006 1:38:45 PM PST by Eagleami (Israeli Hero - Moses Hess - Communist Manifesto)
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To: Eagleami

Yup, dem Joooos are commies, all right. Le's nuke 'em.


95 posted on 03/20/2006 1:51:25 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: Shalom Israel

Delusional!


96 posted on 03/20/2006 1:53:06 PM PST by Sometimes A River (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46031)
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To: Shalom Israel
It's a moral crime.

Hmmm, it's a moral crime to exercise publicly granted discretion about what information to reveal to foreign governments. A curious point of view.

Further, it opens America up to the potential for divine wrath, though I wouldn't presume to know what form that might take.

Like 9/11 for instance? You think 9/11 might be divine retribution?

Are you the one who posed precisely this question earlier, in an attempt to maneuver me into either denigrating Israel or contradicting myself?

No, you're thinking of someone else. We've corresponded before but this application of your anarchist views didn't occur to me. I also don't see what it has to do with "denigrating Israel." How is it denigrating to argue that Israelis would be better off in a state of anarchy?

That said, I do think it is clear that if Israel were not governed, it would have long ago been overrun by neighboring Arab states. Israelis in a state of anarchy would not have been able to organize a resistance. Israelis are, therefore, better off with their government than without one. That's a specific case of the general argument I made.

97 posted on 03/20/2006 1:53:44 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Shalom Israel
In this case, he is perfectly articulating the meme that Israel...is in fact manipulating the United States...

I have a simple rule of thumb, based on careful observation of the use of language among conservatives and liberals.

The rule is this: anyone who uses the word "meme" in casual conversation or political discourse is a liberal. Or a kook.

So far, the rule has never been wrong.

98 posted on 03/20/2006 2:01:36 PM PST by cicero's_son
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To: edsheppa
Hmmm, it's a moral crime to exercise publicly granted discretion about what information to reveal to foreign governments. A curious point of view.

OK, Teddy. Here in the real world, it's a crime to leave your friends in the dark when it's likely to get them killed.

Like 9/11 for instance? You think 9/11 might be divine retribution?

No, moron. But thankfully you've identified yourself by repeating a particularly puerile debate tactic: continually attempt to get your opponent to say something that will turn audience sympathy against him. It is you, Teddy! Have another fifth, and try again.

Israelis in a state of anarchy would not have been able to organize a resistance.

I'd say that's a retarded statement, but then again Americans don't know anything about Israeli history. The 1948 border merely ratifies something that the Jews created for themselves over about a century of struggle, conducted entirely under conditions of anarchy. One of the legacies of that anarchy is the large number of military organizations in Israeli history: Nachal, Palmach, Irgun, etc.

99 posted on 03/20/2006 2:03:50 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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To: edsheppa
Hmmm, it's a moral crime to exercise publicly granted discretion about what information to reveal to foreign governments. A curious point of view.

OK, Teddy. Here in the real world, it's a crime to leave your friends in the dark when it's likely to get them killed.

Like 9/11 for instance? You think 9/11 might be divine retribution?

No, moron. But thankfully you've identified yourself by repeating a particularly puerile debate tactic: continually attempt to get your opponent to say something that will turn audience sympathy against him. It is you, Teddy! Have another fifth, and try again.

Israelis in a state of anarchy would not have been able to organize a resistance.

I'd say that's a retarded statement, but then again Americans don't know anything about Israeli history. The 1948 border merely ratifies something that the Jews created for themselves over about a century of struggle, conducted entirely under conditions of anarchy. One of the legacies of that anarchy is the large number of military organizations in Israeli history: Nachal, Palmach, Irgun, etc.

100 posted on 03/20/2006 2:03:50 PM PST by Shalom Israel (Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.)
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