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Death raises concern at police tactics
BBC News ^ | Tuesday, 21 March 2006 | Matthew Davis

Posted on 03/21/2006 5:52:09 AM PST by Carbonsteel

The recent killing of an unarmed Virginia doctor has raised concerns about what some say is an explosion in the use of military-style police Swat teams in the United States.

Armed with assault rifles, stun grenades - even armoured personnel carriers - units once used only in highly volatile situations are increasingly being deployed on more routine police missions.

Dr Salvatore Culosi Jr had come out of his townhouse to meet an undercover policeman when he was shot through the chest by a Special Weapons and Tactics force.

It was about 2135 on a chilly January evening. The 37-year-old optometrist was unarmed, he had no history of violence and displayed no threatening behaviour.

But he had been under investigation for illegal gambling and in line with a local police policy on "organised crime" raids, the heavily armed team was there to serve a search warrant.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: donutwatch; lawenforcement; leo; leos; paramilitarypolice; swatteams; warondrugs; wod; wodlist
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I can see how this would worry some. Here in Lubbock, a SWAT officer was killed by friendly fire when the team was called out over a domestic dispute.

On the other hand, with gangs growing larger, stronger, and better armed, its hard not to justify it.

1 posted on 03/21/2006 5:52:11 AM PST by Carbonsteel
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To: Carbonsteel

Yes, be gentle with the armed, murderous criminals. It's not their fault they're bad.....nobody ever took the time to love them.


2 posted on 03/21/2006 5:54:12 AM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: Carbonsteel

they have to justify their huge cost. if they don't deploy, they cannot do so. So the most they want to stay in business, the more likely they will deploy in ever decreasing circumstances. It's called "funding justifiable mission creep".


3 posted on 03/21/2006 5:56:51 AM PST by camle (Keep your mind open and somebody will fill if full of something for you.)
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To: Carbonsteel
"The problem is that when you talk about the war on this and the war on that, and police officers see themselves as soldiers, then the civilian becomes the enemy."

To paraphrase Chairman Mao, the US Government is "building socialism with Amerrican characteristics".

4 posted on 03/21/2006 6:02:13 AM PST by headsonpikes (Genocide is the highest sacrament of socialism.)
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To: Carbonsteel
"The problem is that when you talk about the war on this and the war on that, and police officers see themselves as soldiers, then the civilian becomes the enemy."

I think that line above says it all. Far too many police forces are acting as armies of occupation rather than keepers of the peace.
5 posted on 03/21/2006 6:03:12 AM PST by FroedrickVonFreepenstein
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To: Puppage
Yes, be gentle with the armed, murderous criminals. It's not their fault they're bad.....nobody ever took the time to love them.

The problem, if you take the time to read the article, is that S.W.A.T. teams are being sent to arrest, unarmed, nonmurderous criminals, often with tragic results.

6 posted on 03/21/2006 6:10:39 AM PST by JTN ("I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. And I'm all out of bubble gum.")
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To: Carbonsteel

Also recall Columbine, where the truly first-responding officers were not allowed to enter immediately, while awaiting SWAT. The result was that the students remaining inside were left to fend for themselves until SWAT arrived, assembled, and entered. SWAT is just another tool, and is justifiable on that basis. How effective or ineffective a tool results from the decision making of the managers.


7 posted on 03/21/2006 6:31:06 AM PST by LZ_Bayonet
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To: Carbonsteel
"officer was killed by friendly fire"

Dallas had Officer Cox who was stitched up the back by a H&K MP5, but you are not supposed to know this.

8 posted on 03/21/2006 6:46:28 AM PST by Deguello (Wake me up early, be good to my dogs and teach my children to play.)
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To: Carbonsteel

Have you ever noticed how concerned British news organizations are with American guns? Surely there's a prince somewhere these clowns can be pestering, or a cricket match that needs covering. Our 2nd Amendment must give the Brits a wedgie.


9 posted on 03/21/2006 7:03:06 AM PST by IronJack
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To: camle
"funding justifiable mission creep".

DING! DING! You go on to the lightning round.

10 posted on 03/21/2006 7:04:19 AM PST by IronJack
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To: camle

By the way, that's one of the defining characteristics of every bureaucracy.


11 posted on 03/21/2006 7:05:44 AM PST by IronJack
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To: Deguello

You better shut your big mouth or the 'Jack boot' sycophants will be here to call you a 'cop hater'.

Dangerous sadistic hero bump.


12 posted on 03/21/2006 7:09:42 AM PST by glasseye
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To: Carbonsteel
Well, accidents happen. As long as the family is properly compensated and the officer who fired the fatal shot is fired and never allowed to work as a police officer again, then you have to say that incidents like this are just part of the price we pay to have a safe society.

The problem is, victims are rarely compensated, and the officers whose incompetence cause these tragedies are rarely even disciplined let alone fired.

Witness the two month long investigation in this case. They are desperately trying to find some way to make it the fault of their victim instead of taking responsibility for their screw up.

That is what is evil about law enforcement, not the fact that they make mistakes.
13 posted on 03/21/2006 7:21:39 AM PST by monday
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To: Carbonsteel

Go ahead! Try to justify summary execution in the USA!


14 posted on 03/21/2006 8:18:45 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: FroedrickVonFreepenstein

" Far too many police forces are acting as armies of occupation rather than keepers of the peace."

In fact, they are acting as terrorists! The lack of results in a generations long civil war relegates all action as significant only for the terror that it inflicts upon the citizenry in effort to control their appetites. (Not a Constitutionally mandated federal power!)


15 posted on 03/21/2006 8:24:54 AM PST by PaxMacian
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To: Carbonsteel

"Yes, be gentle with the armed, murderous criminals."

This is more about excessive use of force where civilians and innocents die...cmon.

Police departments are justifying more swat call outs to increase their budgets.

Follow the $$$.


16 posted on 03/21/2006 8:43:41 AM PST by George from New England
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To: FroedrickVonFreepenstein
Far too many police forces are acting as armies of occupation rather than keepers of the peace.

I don't know about that, but they sure as hell dress and equip like it.
17 posted on 03/21/2006 8:46:08 AM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: Carbonsteel

Who knows the laws on wearing body armour?

Are the civilian restrictions state by state statutes or are there federal laws affecting citizen use of kevlar?


18 posted on 03/21/2006 8:48:59 AM PST by George from New England
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To: Carbonsteel; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; antisocial; archy; backhoe; Badray; Bernard Marx; ...

BANG!


19 posted on 03/21/2006 10:03:46 AM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: Carbonsteel

Don't forget, in that Lubbock "circulaar SWAT firing squad" case, they arrested the innocent home owner and charged him with murdering the cop. Thank God he didn't own any weapons in the caliber that killed the cop.

(For those who forgot, a SWAT accidental discharge led to a firefight between the front yard SWAT cops, and the back yard SWAT cops....right through the man's house. Hundreds of rounds were fired at each other. A cop was killed, and an innocent man was being railroaded as a "cop killer." He'd be on death row today if he had owned a gun in .223.)


20 posted on 03/21/2006 10:08:06 AM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: George from New England
"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."


21 posted on 03/21/2006 10:11:04 AM PST by Travis McGee (--- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com ---)
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To: monday
and the officers whose incompetence cause these tragedies are rarely even disciplined

are you trying to say the 6 weeks paid administrative leave isn't a punishment? for SHAME!
22 posted on 03/21/2006 10:13:38 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: Travis McGee

Last week in L.A. the SWAT team (with two armored vehicles) was called out because one idiot who stole a car wouldn't exit the vehicle after he was stopped.


23 posted on 03/21/2006 10:16:54 AM PST by janetgreen (The White House fiddles while America is invaded)
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To: glasseye

24 posted on 03/21/2006 10:51:05 AM PST by Dead Corpse (I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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To: PaxMacian
In fact, they are acting as terrorists!

The unlawful use of or threatned use of force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives.

--FBI definition of terrorism.

25 posted on 03/21/2006 11:00:02 AM PST by archy (I am General Tso. This is my Chief of Staff, Colonel Sanders....)
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To: Travis McGee
background info of the lubbock screw up:

http://www.lubbockonline.com/special/fatal_standoff/docs/TracyTaylor.pdf

http://www.lubbockonline.com/special/fatal_standoff/docs/shields_fbi.pdf

26 posted on 03/21/2006 11:02:28 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Travis McGee
Dressing in black, masking your face and being armed with the latest black weapon --- doesn't make one a responsible LEO....

Too often, we're seeing the result of taking a "Barney Fife", or a self appointed "Terminator" and trying to turn them into disciplined and focused Swat Team members...

Ain't gonna work.... There are going to be MORE, not less of these unjustified police executions, or "friendly fire" killings of their fellow officers.

I doubt there are any training, physical or mental standards controlling the Nationwide rush to militarize the local Police Forces... I also suspect there is no rational guidelines to determine when it is APPROPRIATE to launch an assault on the home of a suspect..

I've seen televised Swat Team assaults on homes, that I KNOW would be met by fire if it were MY home.....

What the hell ever happened to the "knock and announce intention" procedure? Are we ALL assumed to be drug dealers attempting to flush drugs down the toilet -- or arm ourselves to resist the serving of a search warrant?

Semper Fi
27 posted on 03/21/2006 11:03:20 AM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: river rat
A lot of them are juicers which could explain some of the JBT'ery

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1083520%257E,00.html

Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - A veteran Denver police sergeant and former SWAT officer is under suspicion in Arapahoe County for allegedly possessing steroids, officials said Tuesday. The Denver Police Department placed Thomas Lahey, 36, on paid leave after he received a package of what police believe is testosterone at his Arapahoe County home on Thursday. Investigators from the South Metro Drug Task Force then raided Lahey's home, seizing additional suspected steroids, 97 syringes, a steroid-use schedule, 15 guns and two computers, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson said.

A 14-year department veteran, Lahey was not detained. Authorities are still trying determine whether the drugs in the package and in his home were indeed steroids, Robinson said.

Under Colorado law, steroids are considered a controlled substance, and possessing them is a felony punishable by up to six years in prison, Robinson said.

The investigation into Lahey began Dec. 23, when U.S. Customs investigators doing a random check found the suspected testosterone in a package addressed to Lahey from Great Britain.

28 posted on 03/21/2006 11:14:29 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: Travis McGee
Check this link

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=7CBDCE299825FD9D5D3BD80824CC651F.hydra?id=460732

29 posted on 03/21/2006 11:17:40 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: headsonpikes
Abuse of the chattering class.

More police brutality, whats new? Sarc
30 posted on 03/21/2006 11:17:44 AM PST by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: Travis McGee
I understand that several years ago a sheriff decided he would use the RICO laws to get land and money from a local rancher.

He sent out the SWAT team in ski masks and when the barefooted rancher stepped out of his bedroom with a pistol the man was murdered on the spot by the ski masked intruders who turned out to be the local SWAT team.
31 posted on 03/21/2006 11:21:54 AM PST by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: river rat
It's time to take a good look at what is happening with these military style police departments.

I know in the little town I came from we went for more that thirty years with just a 4 man 2 car police department.

Now we have 13 cars and 42 police personnel.

We now have a SWAT team and the officers have a military style uniform.

There have also been many charges of abuse filed against officers.

Now even routine stops demand two police cars be involved.


Damn shame so much wasted money when 4 used to do what it now takes 42 to do.

This seems to pattern the new land take away called eminent domain theft by big money men.
32 posted on 03/21/2006 11:28:01 AM PST by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: Travis McGee

Sending a SWAT team in to a situation immediately escalates the possibility of possible mistakes being made. The decision to roll SWAT had better be made with all the information available and with expertly trained people.


33 posted on 03/21/2006 11:28:37 AM PST by afnamvet
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To: Travis McGee
But he had been under investigation for illegal gambling

Wehehehelll. The world is a safer place with this dangerous criminal off the streets.\sarc

Just damn. The shooter needs to be brought up on homicide charges.

34 posted on 03/21/2006 11:37:07 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: OKIEDOC
You may be referring to the killing of Donald Scott of Scott Paper. Yes, that Scott paper.

Mr. Scott was killed by Los Angeles Sheriff's deputies as the deputies raided Mr. Scott's home in Ventura (NOT Los Angeles) county in a search for Marijuana cultivation. After the killing, an investigation by Ventura County District Attorney Michael Bradbury stated that there had never been any marijuana cultivation on the property, and that the raid was motivated by a desire to seize Scott's home. Seems that just having a nice piece of land near (not in) the jurisdiction of crooked cops is enough to get you killed.
35 posted on 03/21/2006 11:43:11 AM PST by Jubal Harshaw
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To: MileHi
Given the level of training and years onthe job I don't think this was an accident if ya catch my drift
36 posted on 03/21/2006 11:47:23 AM PST by vrwc0915
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To: vrwc0915

Yea, I really do.


37 posted on 03/21/2006 11:48:50 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: MileHi

was he holding saturday poker games with his friends and didn't invite someone that really wanted to play??


38 posted on 03/21/2006 11:54:33 AM PST by cajun-jack
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To: Carbonsteel; Travis McGee

once upon a time, there were almost no organized police forces within the United States. The people kept the peace. It was a function of the militia and private security, and was a common civic duty.

Then, police forces were founded, to some extent in response to the need to co-opt immigrants into government-funded jobs (the rise of "professional" police and fire services was in lockstep with the rise of machine politics)... however: once upon a time, police were "peacekeepers"

now, they are "law enforcement officers" in an ever-expanding "war on [whatever]" with an ever-expanding list of laws to enforce.

we, the people, are fast becoming regarded as collateral items in a war zone - not directly targeted, but... only "oops-worthy" if broken accidentally.


39 posted on 03/21/2006 11:59:32 AM PST by King Prout (DOWN with the class-enemies at Google! LONG LIVE THE PEOPLE'S CUBE!)
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To: Jubal Harshaw; All

Nice username.

We need the JBT/boot on face/flashlight in face/1984 image on this thread.


40 posted on 03/21/2006 12:20:03 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: FreedomPoster
Found it.


41 posted on 03/21/2006 12:29:06 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: Deguello

Actually, Ronnie Cox was an Addison officer, and he was shot by Dallas tac or narcotics officers (don't remember which). I worked for DPD then. I don't think it was ever fully resolved, or ever will be. (What was Cox doing in the house, why was the entry team so quick to fire, where was the communication, etc., etc.).

A really bad situation, and it wasn't the last one, either. David Bromley was shot by fellow officers while in the back seat of a car trying to make a buy that turned into a robbery (they didn't know what seat he was sitting in), and Harold Hammons was shot by a fellow entry team member with a shotgun in a south Dallas raid.

There are very few good reasons for dynamic entry (life threatening emergencies, etc). Preserving a few ounces of narcotics as evidence is not a good reason, IMO.


42 posted on 03/21/2006 12:50:17 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: OKIEDOC
I know in the little town I came from we went for more that thirty years with just a 4 man 2 car police department. Now we have 13 cars and 42 police personnel.

It's those "100,000" new cops the Clintons gave us (many of whom are Clinton sycophants). Now that they're hired, they gotta justify their salaries.

Also, the money that didn't go to hiring went to all kinds of cool toys, courtesy of military surplus caused by defense downsizing. See how it all fits together so nicely?

43 posted on 03/21/2006 12:54:57 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: cajun-jack

....or someone wasn't getting their cut of the action


44 posted on 03/21/2006 12:57:14 PM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Carbonsteel
The rise of militarized forms of policing, the LA style of policing you might call it, was more the result of ethnic conflict than the war on drugs per se, they're the system's response to ethnic street gangs, which are not merely criminal but a form of social rebellion as well. Militarized police are a necessity in a multicultural society. In a properly functioning empire they both suppress and protect minorities and by doing so protect the interests of those who built the empire and prosper from it.

British police are also edging towards militarization largely in response to ethnic crime, though the number of minorities in Britain is still quite small.

45 posted on 03/21/2006 1:03:43 PM PST by jordan8
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To: vrwc0915

Ronnie Coleman, the current Mr. Universe, has been called at various times a part or full time police officer. Lou Ferrigno just joined the Sheriff's department as a reserve deputy. I don't know if Lou still juices, it looks like he occasionally might. The organizations these two belong to don't seem to take anti-steroid laws very seriously.


46 posted on 03/21/2006 1:15:07 PM PST by jordan8
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To: OKIEDOC
The county I lived in for a long time -- Montgomery County in Maryland ("Moose country"), went from having one of the most professional, community respected and supported police forces in the country -- to the PC incompetents as represented by Chief Moose of "D.C. Sniper Shame"...
Where it took an unauthorized release of suspect racial and vehicle description from the press, and an alert truck driver to finally capture the two black sniper perps....

The fall from grace and competence in Montgomery County, took less than 15 years!
The slippery slope to incompetence is steep!
The instant that demonstrated merit is not the primary condition for employment or advancement -- is the instant that incompetence commences...

All one needs to do is apply a careless mix of Multicultural, Multi-ethnic Affirmative Action and you get Turd World results...

Dress and arm these folks as "Swat Teams" and you have a recipe for disaster...

Semper Fi

47 posted on 03/21/2006 2:29:40 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Larry Lucido
Addison PD & Dallas were running a joint raid on a location. It seems that the two teams were not introduced prior to the raid.

Cox was hand cuffing one person at gunpoint (on the floor) and he got a full auto burst up the back. The number of rounds that hit him (5 if I remember) was not revealed until a year or so later.

Bromley was a bizarre case. The backup team was not paying attention to the situation and they fired into the backseat. The lady cop did good to roll out of the front seat.

48 posted on 03/21/2006 2:45:35 PM PST by Deguello (Wake me up early, be good to my dogs and teach my children to play.)
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To: Jubal Harshaw

Yes that may be it.

I remember we had something like that occur in our small town.

The local sheriff wanted a new hot DARE car so one of the deputies planted a bag of marijuana on the car of a local kid.

The cops looked sort of stupid driving around in a souped up car with DARE written on the hood.


49 posted on 03/21/2006 2:51:13 PM PST by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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To: river rat

Right On.


50 posted on 03/21/2006 2:53:14 PM PST by OKIEDOC (There's nothing like hearing someone say thank you for your help.)
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