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Man did not rescue child for fear of 'pervert' slur
Scotsman ^ | 3/21/06

Posted on 03/21/2006 6:38:34 PM PST by iPod Shuffle

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To: Malsua

About 20 years ago I was involved in coaching kids in Junior Olympic track and field. These days with false accusations, insinuations, and the like, I would be insane to participate in such an activity these days. Trouble is there are child molester types actually involved in "coaching" activities (anyone in Houston remember Bob Nash from cycling?), so when these child molesters get caught, it casts a pall on all the other adults legitimately involved in coaching kids.


51 posted on 03/21/2006 7:37:07 PM PST by Fred Hayek (Liberalism is a mental disorder)
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To: Nova442
And a society that forgets "innocent until proven guilty" and declares guilt on the 24 hour news networks.

Look again. This incident occurred in England. The presumption of innocence is a feature of U.S. law. Under English law you must prove your innocence.

52 posted on 03/21/2006 7:38:57 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: iPod Shuffle

There seems to be a lot focus here on the passer-by and not the staff.


53 posted on 03/21/2006 7:40:24 PM PST by zipp_city
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To: SamAdams76

thank goodness you didn't take him into your car. you'd be doing 10 years right now.


54 posted on 03/21/2006 7:40:43 PM PST by oceanview
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To: iPod Shuffle
I raised my little girl by myself for years. She was never allowed in my bed even after she woke up from a nightmare. I just didn't want to have to explain it to a nosy busybody. Sorry for the girl. I really am. But I understand his thinking. Just surfing around here would make you think a lot of folks are just looking for a perv to torture and execute.
55 posted on 03/21/2006 7:41:06 PM PST by manwiththehands (Islam is as Islam does. Islam is as Islam allows.)
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To: oceanview

I believe it.


56 posted on 03/21/2006 7:42:17 PM PST by SamAdams76 (Venus is dazzling, but not very high, in the western sky)
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To: iPod Shuffle
I think this sort of sensibility is common. The rule is, any adult male who pays attention to a child risks being considered a potential molester.

Today I stopped myself from looking for more than a second at a couple of cute five-seven year old kids, probably brother and sister, for exactly that reason. Didn't want their Mom to think I was some kind of pervert. Satisfying my mild curiosity about the kids was not worth the potential downside.

I would love to know what percentage of the population really are child molesters.

57 posted on 03/21/2006 7:42:37 PM PST by TChad
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To: Myrddin

Isn't that only in libel cases? I thought in general we shared a common law tradition and most of the same values with England.


58 posted on 03/21/2006 7:43:13 PM PST by Young Scholar
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To: Calpernia

well, no man wants to face the wrath of the judicial system for a crime he didn't commit. just the allegation could wipe you out personally, and financially, to prove your innocence.


59 posted on 03/21/2006 7:43:41 PM PST by oceanview
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To: iPod Shuffle
A BRICKLAYER who passed a toddler walking alone in a village shortly before her fatal fall into a pond said yesterday he did not stop to help in case people thought he was trying to abduct her.

Sad but understandable.

60 posted on 03/21/2006 7:45:39 PM PST by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken.)
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To: iPod Shuffle
A lot of comments of people understanding why he did what he did - but if he had thought about it, he could have found a way to do the right thing without exposing himself to potential ridicule.

Cell phone? Everyone's got one these days - what's to keep him from stopping the girl, putting a shirt on her, and calling the police?

61 posted on 03/21/2006 7:46:26 PM PST by the anti-liberal (Hey, Al Qaeda: Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent)
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To: oceanview

Oceanview, if it wasn't you, I would post a pic of a livestock emasculator. Take that sentiment as my response.


62 posted on 03/21/2006 7:47:17 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Kimmers
This story is so tragic, yet I understand his thinking.

So obviously you wouldn't step in front of a truck for a child. In such instance the rescuer is dead but the child is alive. In this instance the rescuer is worried about defending himself in a court of law while the child is dead. All he had to do was pick her up and stand on the street.

Maybe I'm too stupid and old. Maybe I wouldn't had done it if I were younger, I don't know. But the girl is dead because he didn't have the sense to pick her up and start yelling at the traffic for help?

63 posted on 03/21/2006 7:47:31 PM PST by groanup (Shred for Ian)
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To: Fred Hayek
About 20 years ago I was involved in coaching kids in Junior Olympic track and field. These days with false accusations, insinuations, and the like, I would be insane to participate in such an activity these days

I understand completely. I find that any "interest" I may take in children could ultimately be used to suggest I'm a molestor or something. That is so extremely loathesome to me, I will simply avoid the situation entirely. I don't and won't have children because my wife is unable. I so love and cherish my nieces and nephews I cannot fathom the heart of a molestor. It's not in my nature to understand evil I suppose. Who can harm an innocent like that? I mean...what mechanism is broken in their head? Whatever it is, I'm ok with fairly quick execution.

64 posted on 03/21/2006 7:48:17 PM PST by Malsua
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To: OldFriend
I've been in a similar situation. Sometimes you just have to suck it up.

Not you. Right?

65 posted on 03/21/2006 7:49:28 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: oceanview

well, no man wants to face the wrath of the judicial system for a crime he didn't commit. just the allegation could wipe you out personally, and financially, to prove your innocence.


If one does a crime the courts have to prove you are guilty, but with an allegation you have to prove you are innocent which is almost impossible to do, we need new laws in this country on these alligations


66 posted on 03/21/2006 7:50:21 PM PST by zipp_city
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To: iPod Shuffle

Perfectly understandable. The inevitable result of an irrational culture of fear.


67 posted on 03/21/2006 7:50:56 PM PST by Wormwood (Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!)
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To: Nova442
And a society that forgets "innocent until proven guilty" and declares guilt on the 24 hour news networks.

That is EXACTLY what is at issue here.

68 posted on 03/21/2006 7:51:44 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Diplomacy is what you do after you kick the enemy's ass and define their lives afterward)
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To: OldFriend

Oops - that sounded awful. Let me rephrase that as I meant it - what would you have done?


69 posted on 03/21/2006 7:52:35 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: iPod Shuffle
Are witnessing the death of social contract? Every man for himself and God against all? (Title of Werner Herzog's film.)

I can list for you what I think are the causes of this off the top of my head in my sleep. You can too, I bet. But let's look beneath the surface. Something's got to give, I always say. Start by making pederasty acceptable by naming it using a synonym for 'merriment', and end at the state of confusion, where pedophilia is in the public's mind disassociated from 'merry', but we just don't know and can't say what it is. Well, back to 'gaiety' and cluelessness...

70 posted on 03/21/2006 7:52:58 PM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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To: Billthedrill

Let's see, live girl and busted reputation, or dead girl and busted reputation?

Stupid decision.


--- --- --- --- ---

You conveniently forgot the most likely scenario: Live girl and intact reputation.

His decision was based on sound logic and high probability.

The mother is to blame for this mess.

She would have just as likely blamed him if he actually tended the daughter, probably accusing him of all types of bad things, since the mother would then have never known the parallel universe where he daughter died.


71 posted on 03/21/2006 7:55:56 PM PST by HighWheeler (The liberal dinosaurs bellow defiantly while sinking deeper into the swamp.......)
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To: Graybeard58
Brother....the stories that could be told.

When my daughter was 2-1/2, many years ago, she fell and hit her cheek on a coffee table at her aunt's house. Tears and a suppy lip, but just a little redness. The next morning, when we went to her room to get her up, she had horrible swelling of her left eye. Swollen shut, to be exact. With a low grade fever. We rushed her to the hospital. En route, her temp soared and she had a febrile seizure while being admitted. Scared the dickens out of us.

Her pediatrician, at the time, made "comments" to us, letting us know she'd have to let Children's' Services know about the situation. Shocked us both to the point of speechlessness. As it turns out, she'd been having ear infections. As back luck would have it, the knock on the noggin allowed some of the 'bug' to travel from the ear to the sinuses behind the left eye, causing the swelling, fever and nasty looks.

We "fired" her pediatrician and told her she'd better never approach either of us, or our daughter, lest she be sued for everything she owned, or ever would own.

72 posted on 03/21/2006 7:56:22 PM PST by Thumper1960 (The enemy within: Demoncrats and DSA.ORG Sedition is a Liberal "family value".)
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To: Billthedrill

Well, fwiw, I would've stopped and waited until someone called the cops (or I'd do it, obviously, if I had a cell) but there is just about no chance in heck I'd put the kid in the car! Maybe if someone was bearing down on the scene with a knife, or something like that. :)

And I wouldn't have been happy about it in any case. Much as some others have mentioned above, I do not even acknowledge the presence of kids anymore. Who needs the potential hassle?


73 posted on 03/21/2006 7:57:58 PM PST by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Calpernia

the truth hurts. it simply a reality of the society. most ambitious ADAs would think nothing of running some dude like SamAdams through the judicial ringer, because he wanted to help a stranded child and took him into his car.


74 posted on 03/21/2006 7:58:14 PM PST by oceanview
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To: zipp_city

sure, try and prove your innocence when the state moves psychiatrists in to "interview" the 5 year old boy SamAdams thought about helping - and the kids comes out screaming "he touched me".


75 posted on 03/21/2006 7:59:52 PM PST by oceanview
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To: Mobile Vulgus

"Still, in this day and age, can you fuly blame him?"

Ah, that's what makes it worse. I can't.
We might do the same. I am sure he is a decent person and feels awful about it.


76 posted on 03/21/2006 8:00:57 PM PST by WOSG (http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com/)
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To: Thumper1960

the system is designed to get the "low hanging fruit". in the meantime, those SOBs in florida in the Jessica Lunsford case, who knew where the kidnapped child was - walked.


77 posted on 03/21/2006 8:02:05 PM PST by oceanview
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To: Malsua

I may have been the first adult male authority figure who took some interest in them - as in getting them to hit the books, since there is no money in track and field. Had to do more with teaching self discipline. I am still in contact with some of those people, after they had gone on to college degrees, careers, etc. These were kids who were otherwise written off, yet most went on to accoplish something. It is sad that in today's culture the actions of a handful of evil people fires up the paranoia of of the public, where anyone working with children, especially on a volunteer basis, is under suspicion. The good people are afraid to get involved because of the risks, and the kids lose.

No, I am not a bleeding heart liberal. I believe that charity is best and most effective when it is from individuals and voluntary, not from the state bureaucrats funded by tax dollars confiscated from individuals. In the latter the bureaucrat is interested primarily by keeping his/her job by keeping people dependent. In the former the people giving are directly involved and directly interested in seeing the long term real benefit to those given. When I saw that, I was on the road to becoming a conservative.


78 posted on 03/21/2006 8:04:06 PM PST by Fred Hayek (Liberalism is a mental disorder)
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To: HighWheeler
You conveniently forgot the most likely scenario: Live girl and intact reputation.

Nothing "convenient" about it. I stated the choice that the guy was actually making according to his own words.

Look, I'm a single guy who bears the brunt of the paranoia of parents who find their children near me whether through their fault or not. It infuriates me to be treated with suspicion. I enjoy the company of children, most of them, in small doses. I am not a criminal.

And the others are right - there is a very real danger of an accusation that it will be difficult to disprove, especially if the child is coached into testifying for the prosecution. The situation isn't the kid's fault.

And so what we're really talking about here is whether a man can face obloquy to save a child who is strange to him. The choice to keep one's reputation and freedom safe and let the thing slid is a perfectly legitimate one, and is the one the guy made. Most often the kid would be OK and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sometimes - this time - not. And when it isn't the guy still has to face an outcome he could have prevented, and this guy does.

It sucks. It's rotten, it's unfair, and I don't really blame the guy for making the wrong decision here, but it was the wrong decision. IMHO.

79 posted on 03/21/2006 8:05:19 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: oceanview
I'd like to take that "low hanging fruit" and shove it down the throat of the false accuser.....and watch them gag to death on it.
80 posted on 03/21/2006 8:06:05 PM PST by Thumper1960 (The enemy within: Demoncrats and DSA.ORG Sedition is a Liberal "family value".)
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To: Billthedrill
It sucks. It's rotten, it's unfair, and I don't really blame the guy for making the wrong decision here, but it was the wrong decision. IMHO.

Of course it was *wrong*.

But it was safer than subjecting yourself to a self-rightous mob.

81 posted on 03/21/2006 8:07:48 PM PST by Wormwood (Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!)
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To: rlmorel

What you said - - BUMP.


82 posted on 03/21/2006 8:08:02 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: the anti-liberal
Cell phone? Everyone's got one these days...

I don't and neither do my kids who are home with me.

83 posted on 03/21/2006 8:08:56 PM PST by It's me
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To: Thumper1960

yes, but the false accuser is "the system".

imagine you are the parent of a 5 year old, and the police come by and say they found your kid in some guys car two blocks away. you would freak out, you would assume the worst, when when the state shrinks got the kid to say "he touched me" "he grabbed me", the parent would buy it and sign up for a 20 year sentence for the good samaritan.


84 posted on 03/21/2006 8:09:14 PM PST by oceanview
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To: iPod Shuffle

When I was about 8 years old (1985), my two cousins and I were catching crawdads in a creek in Riverside, Ca. I grabbed a broken bottle to put them in, and gashed open my thumb in the process of clearing debris out of the bottle. We ran up the hill of the creek, and there was a fella fishing --He immediately helped us, gave me paper towels to put around my thumb, packed up his fishing gear, and gave us a ride about 2 miles to my house. Ended up getting 9 stitches in my thumb...
To this day, my Mom and my Aunt are STILL suspicious that the guy who gave us a ride home WHILE MY THUMB WAS GASHED OPEN, may have had pedophillic tendencies for giving 3 sub-10 year olds a ride home. Sad.


85 posted on 03/21/2006 8:09:16 PM PST by Ceint
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To: Wormwood

You are correct. It was safer.


86 posted on 03/21/2006 8:09:41 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: iPod Shuffle

Before "We" can help our children, "us" men "are" the perps. Very sad but true... : ) <<< me


87 posted on 03/21/2006 8:10:36 PM PST by stopsign ("What great fortune for government, That people don't think"....Der Fuhrer. Hummm.... : ) <<< me)
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To: groanup
But the girl is dead because he didn't have the sense to pick her up and start yelling at the traffic for help?

I am sure if he thought the girl would have died, he'd have done something.

Hindsight is always 20/20/

88 posted on 03/21/2006 8:10:38 PM PST by It's me
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To: oceanview

Doing the right thing doesn't always march to a drum beat.


89 posted on 03/21/2006 8:12:15 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Young Scholar

I misspoke. Napoleonic law presumes guilt. English common law presumes "innocence", but an Englishman has far fewer protections than an American under similar circumstances.


90 posted on 03/21/2006 8:13:29 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: southwilby
Yah, I gotta agree. I have a 1.5 year old grandson. At 2 yrs old, they can barely walk or talk. NO WAY a 2 year old should be out on the street unescorted.

Consequences be damned, I like to think I'd have stopped to keep her in control til the police or her parents came to find her.

I'd hate to think that I'd let her go because of what people would have thought of me.

91 posted on 03/21/2006 8:13:59 PM PST by America's Resolve (I've become a 'single issue voter' for 06 and 08. My issue is illegal immigration!)
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To: Billthedrill

"I stated the choice that the guy was actually making..."


No you didn't. They guy never CHOSE for the kid to die.

Sheeeesh.


92 posted on 03/21/2006 8:16:30 PM PST by HighWheeler (The liberal dinosaurs bellow defiantly while sinking deeper into the swamp.......)
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To: It's me
There're always exceptions, but realistically I imagine a tradesman on the job would.

And he should've used it.

93 posted on 03/21/2006 8:17:33 PM PST by the anti-liberal (Hey, Al Qaeda: Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent)
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To: oceanview
I've lived too long and seen too much to remain kneejerk.

I'd never assume what *my* reactions would be.

94 posted on 03/21/2006 8:18:34 PM PST by Thumper1960 (The enemy within: Demoncrats and DSA.ORG Sedition is a Liberal "family value".)
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To: Billthedrill

BTW, I agree with the rest of your post. He made a bad decision, but ONLY with the benefit of hindsight.


95 posted on 03/21/2006 8:18:40 PM PST by HighWheeler (The liberal dinosaurs bellow defiantly while sinking deeper into the swamp.......)
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To: America's Resolve
I'd hate to think that I'd let her go because of what people would have thought of me.

It is a good thing to talk about. Ya ever been there? It will change your whole life if "your" the one who helped, and all the sudden "your" the one answering all the questions, not the parents, ya, it happended to me... : ) <<< me

96 posted on 03/21/2006 8:20:40 PM PST by stopsign ("What great fortune for government, That people don't think"....Der Fuhrer. Hummm.... : ) <<< me)
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To: HighWheeler

I dunno - a loose two-year-old in proximity to a pond screams "danger" to me. But your point is absolutely correct, and neither one of us has to live with this, and he does. It's just a tragedy and I don't use the word lightly.


97 posted on 03/21/2006 8:21:47 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: Billthedrill

good discussion.


98 posted on 03/21/2006 8:26:22 PM PST by HighWheeler (The liberal dinosaurs bellow defiantly while sinking deeper into the swamp.......)
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To: Malsua

One day, while my husband, sons and I were at a local minor-league baseball game, I told my boys, "Stay close, we don't want to lose you!"

My oldest (8 y.o. at the time) replied, "I know, 'cause this place is full of bad guys."

I stopped in my tracks and thought about what he'd just said. I told him, "Look around you. There are about 6000 people here today. About 5990 of them would never EVER hurt you, and of them, thousands of them would probably put their lives in harm's way to protect you if they could. The problem is...we can't tell which one of these folks IS the bad guy, and that's why we have to be careful."

After reading this article, I'm afraid I may have lied to my child. I guess I never really thought about how many men are truly and honestly afraid of being accused of something villainous. I am hopeful, though, that most men would overcome their fears and help my child if he needed it. If not, I fear we're surely lost as a society.

Regards,


99 posted on 03/21/2006 8:26:35 PM PST by VermiciousKnid
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To: iPod Shuffle
Judgments and kibitzing are easy, and that's what we're doing here tonight (and don't give me that tired nonsense about innocent until proven guilty - for the thousandth time, it's invalid and inapplicable outside the courtroom of the greatest judicial system in the world.)

We can't resist the social trends. I think it was Hagel who said that one cannot rise above the moral tenor of the times. I have seen similar situations and experienced them myself, as those related by others above, though they never were life and death matters as in the Scotsman report. Don't judge, sit down and weep.

100 posted on 03/21/2006 8:28:06 PM PST by Revolting cat! ("In the end, nothing explains anything.")
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